Retire J.R. Richard's number?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Why haven't the Astros retired J.R. Richard's number?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...4&sportCat=mlb


POST 5,500!!!!

[brewcrew82]

After Richard left the game, the Astros didn't use #50 again until 1988 and then 1992 and again in '97. Since then it has been used almost on a yearly basis. This makes me wonder if at one stage the Astros were considering retiring 50 to honor JR.
Maybe an Astros fan call recall if there has ever been an official desire to retire his number by the franchise.

[TonyStarks]

This is long overdue.

Retire the man's number already!

[Dodgerfan1]

Jim Umbricht had his uniform number 32 retired by these same Astros after he died of lymphoma in 1964, and I believe the team even named it's annual MVP trophy after him! Was he better than Richard? I think not!

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1

Jim Umbricht had his uniform number 32 retired by these same Astros after he died of lymphoma in 1964, and I believe the team even named it's annual MVP trophy after him! Was he better than Richard? I think not!

That's the difference, though. Umbricht (and Don Wilson) passed while they were with the team. Richard did not. The retired numbers are used as memorials in those case.
I remember Richard very well. It's too bad he suffered his stroke (and it was shocking to see a man struck down in the prime of his life that) just as the Astros were becoming a legitimate threat. He was an awesome sight to see on the mound, and I wouldn't object to see his number retired.

[lamearm]

There is some unpleasentness between James Rodney and the Astros, or at least there was. Until that is resolved, don't look for his 50 to be hanging up there, deserved as it may be...

[tadlock11]

FYI, to those in the Houston area, Richard is a pitching instructor at THE SPORTS HOUSE (Clear Lake).

[Monarch]

J.R. is an amazing story. He deserves more than his number retired, but I'm sure he would be honored. Besides, the Astros have done A LOT to help him out. Correct me if I'm wrong Astros fans, but didn't the organization find him living under an overpass and give him a job and help him out? Or, am I just misinformed. I would greatly appreciate the feedback on this. I mean, if that's true, that has Sunday night movie of the week written all over it.

[Edgartohof]

Now I obviously don't know the story behind him, so if someone wouldn't mind helping me out, that would be greatly appreciated.

Because I don't want to disrespect anyone by saying the wrong thing without knowing everything.

[PopTop]

Originally Posted by Monarch

I mean, if that's true, that has Sunday night movie of the week written all over it.

Too late!

(link) Resurrection: The J.R. Richard Story
"The story of famed Houston Astros Fastball Pitcher J.R. Richard, from his high school days in Louisiana, his first round draft pick in 1969, to the massive stroke he suffered in 1980, to his abandonment by the only team he ever played for, to his living as a homeless man under a Houston bridge, to his Resurrection by friends and fans back into baseball."

Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1

Jim Umbricht had his uniform number 32 retired by these same Astros after he died of lymphoma in 1964, and I believe the team even named it's annual MVP trophy after him! Was he better than Richard? I think not!

Before you pooh-pooh the man based solely on his stats, you might want to learn a little bit about him. He was the epitome of courage, determination and dignity battling through the cancer.


Back to JR...there was indeed some bad feelings between the club and JR Richard after the stroke that cost his career. But the team gave him every chance they could, just as they did with Dickie Thon back in the mid-80s. Everyone remembers how dominant JR was for a couple of years leading into the stroke. But few seem to recall how frustratingly wild he was on several occasions that the team did bring him up hoping he would stick and get command of his pitches.

I'm all for hanging his jersey up in the stadium to honor him. But I've never been a fan of retiring numbers completely. A team could be very deliberate about who they gave a certain number to, making sure the player was not only a fair talent on the field but a person of strong character on and off the field so that the number of a previous star is carried on to the utmost degree. I can see not giving out a number for a player who died while a member of the team, Umbricht and Wilson, for example. Personally, I'd have a case of the creeps knowing the last time it was worn was by someone who died.

But I'd love to look down on the field sometime in the future and see another #5 or #7, watch them hustle and have that conjure up memories of Bagwell and Biggio.

Hanging some jersey in the rafters to collect dust just doesn't do much for honoring a player in my book. It's like just remembering a man because he has a big headstone on his grave instead of remembering him for the bigness of his life.

[Dodgerfan1]

Originally Posted by PopTop

Before you pooh-pooh the man based solely on his stats, you might want to learn a little bit about him. He was the epitome of courage, determination and dignity battling through the cancer.

I knew all those things already. I didn't need to learn any more about him. It's great to have courage, determination and dignity, and I applaud him for that. I'll bet there are many players who have faced uphill battles in life, and impending death, with courage and dignity. If all their numbers were retired for that reason, there would be very few left. I am not pooh-poohing Umbricht in the least. I can't find anything about my post that was either demeaning, belittling or factually incorrect. It is what it is.

[Monarch]

Too late!

(link) Resurrection: The J.R. Richard Story
"The story of famed Houston Astros Fastball Pitcher J.R. Richard, from his high school days in Louisiana, his first round draft pick in 1969, to the massive stroke he suffered in 1980, to his abandonment by the only team he ever played for, to his living as a homeless man under a Houston bridge, to his Resurrection by friends and fans back into baseball."

Thank you for the information PopTop.

[PopTop]

Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1

I knew all those things already.

And yet you failed to mention any of 'those things' you already knew. My post is what it is as well.

[Dodgerfan1]

Originally Posted by PopTop

And yet you failed to mention any of 'those things' you already knew. My post is what it is as well.

There are a lot of 'things' about Jim Umbricht, JR Richard and retired numbers that I 'failed to mention', mainly because they weren't pertinent to my point, which was that JR Richard was a much better pitcher than Umbricht and Umbricht's number was retired.

I get that Umbricht was courageously fighting lymphoma, and that his number was retired for reasons other than his pitching skills. I think retiring his number was a nice thing for the Astros to do. I was not trying to slight him in the least. My saying that he wasn't better than JR Richard was just a fact. If you wish to point out why Umbricht's number was retired, that's your right, and you have done so. Thank you for pointing that out.

[PopTop]

Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1

...mainly because they weren't pertinent to my point, which was that JR Richard was a much better pitcher than Umbricht and Umbricht's number was retired.

Yes, your point was that statistically, JR Richard was a better pitcher than Jim Umbricht. Would you also suggest the club retire the numbers previously worn by Bob Knepper, Joe Niekro, Shane Reynolds, Ken Forsch, Dave Smith, Joe Sambito, Fred Gladding, et al, since they were better pitchers statistically than Umbricht?

[Dodgerfan1]

Originally Posted by PopTop

Yes, your point was that statistically, JR Richard was a better pitcher than Jim Umbricht. Would you also suggest the club retire the numbers previously worn by Bob Knepper, Joe Niekro, Shane Reynolds, Ken Forsch, Dave Smith, Joe Sambito, Fred Gladding, et al, since they were better pitchers statistically than Umbricht?

No, and I see your point, however I would also not retire every uniform number of players who battled with cancer and lost. That would be pointless, IMO. As I say, it's commendable that Houston should do what they did for Umbricht, but doesn't seem to me to be the purpose of retiring numbers.

Dave Dravecky was a fine pitcher and also courageously battled cancer, but didn't have his number retired, nor do I believe it should be. I am not uncompassionate at all, as my father recently died of cancer and waged quite a battle with it. I just don't feel that warrants number retirement but, again, that's just me.

I'm not sure you caught the meaning of my first post, but I may not have couched it very well, either.

[Astros]

Retiring numbers is more than just stats and every team has its unique histories and reasons why they retire a number. Umbricht's courage and dedication was very much appreciated by many who wore a Houston uniform at the time of his death. The franchise was also just into its third season of existence so there were not many pitchers to compare him with.

A special ceremony was held in the Astrodome before it's completion and Umbricht's ashes were scattered inside by the family and some of the players.

Don Wilson was another player who became the second person for the Astros to have his number retired. To this day, he is the only pitcher to toss two no-hitters for Houston.

[PopTop]

Originally Posted by Dodgerfan1

I'm not sure you caught the meaning of my first post, but I may not have couched it very well, either.

No, you probably said it right. But I'm an old fart with dinosaur brains often, so you have to hit me in the head a couple of times before I do understand

All I can tell you is what I remember as a much younger man when Umbricht died. It was a blow to the team, especially the players then. New organization, hoping to make some strides in their new fancy park with AC and a roof, and all that. Umbricht was nothing more on the mound but a middle-of-the-road pitcher. But he was anything but middle-of-the-road as a man, and seeing him battle this disease, always optimistic and working his ass off to stay in the game despite the illness he was fighting, I think it meant as much as if he had been a 300-game winner or some perennial Cy Young candidate.

Like I said, I'm not really in favor of any number being retired, though I can understand why a franchise doesn't hand a number out that belonged to a player that died while a part of the team.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I think with Umbricht it was due to the timing of it. He probably was the first player to have gone through that with the Astros, and in the wake of what happened to manager Fred Hutchinson, maybe the sentiment of the times was to honor players like that. Cancer was practically a death sentence then, not nearly as treatable as it is now. You still haven't seen a lot of players die from it while active. Dravecky, Scott Kadinsky and Daryll Strawberry come to mind as at least three who battles the disease to remission. The active part plays a bit into the whole retirement thing.
Did Kansas city retire Dan Quisenberry's number, and did they do it posthumously?