Bernie Williams

[Jake]

His lifetime batting average is .301

263 HR is low but
2097 hits and 36 years old.

.990 fielding percentage
4 consecutive Gold Gloves
5 time all star

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And those 4 WS rings.

Does Bernie get in? Assuming he gets to 2500+ hits and 350 homers.

[julusnc]

I feel Bernie Williams career falls short for the Hall of Fame.I also feel his career is at an end.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by julusnc

I feel Bernie Williams career falls short for the Hall of Fame.I also feel his career is at an end.

What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Baseball-reference.com lists these for him:

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

94th best and 85th best.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by Jake

His lifetime batting average is .301

263 HR is low but
2097 hits and 36 years old.

.990 fielding percentage
4 consecutive Gold Gloves
5 time all star

HOF Standards: Batting - 46.4 (94) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 140.0 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And those 4 WS rings.

Does Bernie get in? Assuming he gets to 2500+ hits and 350 homers.

Hmm, possibly worse than Wynn or maybe Berger yet possibly better than Puckett, Duffy and Doby.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

Hmm, possibly worse than Wynn or maybe Berger yet possibly better than Puckett, Duffy and Doby.

Puckett got in. Was Puckett's induction largely a sympathy vote? I think you have to let Bernie in if they let Puckett in.

[Sashag]

[quote=Jake]What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

[nightal]

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Edd Roush 1069
20 Marquis Grissom 1059


CF

HITS
1 Tris Speaker 3511
2 Ty Cobb 3284
3 Willie Mays 3283
4 Doc Cramer 2705
5 Richie Ashburn 2574
6 Willie Davis 2445
7 Edd Roush 2309
8 Lloyd Waner 2274
9 Brett Butler 2189
10 Ken Griffey Jr. 2080
11 Mickey Mantle 2021
12 Joe DiMaggio 2008
T13 Vada Pinson 2004
T13 Amos Otis 2004
15 Kirby Puckett 1996
16 Steve Finley 1993
17 Marquis Grissom 1991
18 Bernie Williams 1950
19 Kenny Lofton 1943
20 Earl Averill 1924



OPS
1 Mickey Mantle 1.018
2 Joe DiMaggio .982
3 Ty Cobb .964
4 Willie Mays .941
5 Ken Griffey Jr. .940
6 Duke Snider .937
7 Earl Averill .935
8 Tris Speaker .929
9 Larry Doby .885
10 Bernie Williams .882
11 Fred Lynn .859
12 Earle Combs .857
13 Dale Murphy .849
14 Jimmy Wynn .844
15 Baby Doll Jacobson .842
16 Kirby Puckett .827
17 Cy Williams .824
18 Edd Roush .819
19 Cesar Cedeno .814
20 Chet Lemon .813



CF

RCAA
1 Ty Cobb 1107
2 Tris Speaker 1054
3 Mickey Mantle 1009
4 Willie Mays 1008
5 Joe DiMaggio 672
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 535
7 Duke Snider 406
8 Earl Averill 394
9 Larry Doby 369
10 Bernie Williams 357
11 Hack Wilson 332
12 Edd Roush 302
13 Jim Edmonds 290
T14 Fred Lynn 285
T14 Jimmy Wynn 285
16 Richie Ashburn 282
17 Earle Combs 254
18 Cesar Cedeno 244
19 Wally Berger 229
20 Lenny Dykstra 223

RCAP
1 Mickey Mantle 949
2 Ty Cobb 871
3 Willie Mays 856
4 Tris Speaker 779
5 Joe DiMaggio 604
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 532
7 Bernie Williams 366
8 Earl Averill 328
9 Hack Wilson 322
10 Larry Doby 319
11 Duke Snider 312
12 Jim Edmonds 299
13 Fred Lynn 258
14 Jimmy Wynn 224
15 Cesar Cedeno 214
16 Edd Roush 212
17 Kenny Lofton 209
18 Lenny Dykstra 205
19 Wally Berger 200
20 Dale Murphy 190

TOTAL AVERAGE
1 Mickey Mantle 1.161
2 Ty Cobb 1.087
3 Joe DiMaggio 1.021
4 Tris Speaker 1.014
5 Willie Mays .982
6 Ken Griffey Jr. .981
7 Earl Averill .967
8 Duke Snider .953
9 Larry Doby .906
10 Bernie Williams .881
11 Jimmy Wynn .878
12 Earle Combs .849
13 Dale Murphy .846
14 Fred Lynn .840
15 Kenny Lofton .830
16 Lenny Dykstra .828
17 Roy Thomas .822
18 Cesar Cedeno .817
19 Max Carey .806
20 Baby Doll Jacobson .801

CF

OWP
1 Mickey Mantle .821
2 Ty Cobb .786
3 Joe DiMaggio .749
4 Tris Speaker .749
5 Willie Mays .731
6 Larry Doby .687
7 Jimmy Wynn .684
8 Ken Griffey Jr. .683
9 Duke Snider .671
10 Earl Averill .655
11 Bernie Williams .646
12 Roy Thomas .642
13 Earle Combs .641
14 Lenny Dykstra .639
15 Fred Lynn .638
16 Cesar Cedeno .635
17 Dale Murphy .630
18 Edd Roush .629
19 Ginger Beaumont .613
20 Rick Monday .600


CF

ISOLATED POWER
1 Mickey Mantle .278
2 Ken Griffey Jr. .268
3 Willie Mays .256
4 Duke Snider .254
5 Joe DiMaggio .254
6 Earl Averill .217
7 Dale Murphy .213
8 Larry Doby .211
9 Fred Lynn .207
10 Jimmy Wynn .206
11 Bernie Williams .188
12 Steve Finley .180
13 Dave Henderson .178
14 Chet Lemon .177
15 Rick Monday .176
16 Cy Williams .173
17 Vada Pinson .168
18 Cesar Cedeno .168
19 Lloyd Moseby .160
20 Tris Speaker .156
CF

EXTRA BASE HITS
1 Willie Mays 1323
2 Tris Speaker 1131
3 Ty Cobb 901
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 899
5 Mickey Mantle 819
6 Joe DiMaggio 793
7 Duke Snider 732
8 Earl Averill 722
9 Steve Finley 702
10 Willie Davis 681
11 Bernie Williams 666
12 Vada Pinson 654
13 Fred Lynn 635
14 Amos Otis 629
15 Marquis Grissom 594
16 Edd Roush 575
17 Kirby Puckett 561
18 Cesar Cedeno 544
19 Doc Cramer 542
20 Larry Doby 541

CF

AVERAGE
1 Ty Cobb .372
2 Tris Speaker .345
3 Baby Doll Jacobson .325
4 Joe DiMaggio .325
5 Earle Combs .325
6 Edd Roush .324
7 Earl Averill .321
8 Lloyd Waner .321
9 Kirby Puckett .318
10 Mickey Mantle .310
11 Richie Ashburn .308
12 Ginger Beaumont .307
13 Bernie Williams .305
14 Willie Mays .302
15 Duke Snider .301
16 Sammy West .300
17 Kenny Lofton .298
18 Willie McGee .298
19 Dom DiMaggio .298
20 Doc Cramer .296


CF

HOMERUNS
1 Willie Mays 660
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 481
3 Mickey Mantle 464
4 Duke Snider 345
5 Joe DiMaggio 332
6 Fred Lynn 257
7 Jim Edmonds 255
8 Larry Doby 253
9 Steve Finley 244
10 Bernie Williams 241
11 Dale Murphy 240
12 Earl Averill 227
13 Jimmy Wynn 218
14 Rick Monday 212
T15 Hack Wilson 200
T15 Marquis Grissom 200
17 Andruw Jones 198
18 Vada Pinson 196
19 Gorman Thomas 194
20 Amos Otis 193




CF

RBI
1 Willie Mays 1903
2 Tris Speaker 1536
3 Ty Cobb 1466
4 Joe DiMaggio 1412
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1384
6 Mickey Mantle 1289
7 Earl Averill 1100
8 Duke Snider 1097
9 Bernie Williams 1062
10 Willie Davis 1001
11 Amos Otis 997
12 Larry Doby 955
13 Edd Roush 946
14 Fred Lynn 934
15 Steve Finley 915
16 Kirby Puckett 874
17 Doc Cramer 842
18 Vada Pinson 841
19 Marquis Grissom 833
20 Hack Wilson 826

CF

DOUBLES
1 Tris Speaker 792
2 Ty Cobb 568
3 Willie Mays 523
4 Doc Cramer 396
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 382
6 Willie Davis 374
7 Earl Averill 373
8 Bernie Williams 372
9 Amos Otis 370
10 Vada Pinson 358
11 Steve Finley 356
12 Joe DiMaggio 345
T13 Kirby Puckett 343
T13 Fred Lynn 343
15 Marquis Grissom 342
16 Sammy West 341
17 Garry Maddox 337
18 Cesar Cedeno 332
19 Edd Roush 331
20 Kenny Lofton 318

CF

TRIPLES
1 Ty Cobb 240
2 Tris Speaker 222
3 Edd Roush 177
4 Willie Mays 140
5 Willie Davis 131
6 Earle Combs 128
7 Earl Averill 122
8 Joe DiMaggio 116
9 Brett Butler 115
10 Lance Johnson 114
11 Lloyd Waner 112
T12 Doc Cramer 109
T12 Richie Ashburn 109
14 Max Carey 108
T15 Steve Finley 102
T15 Bill Bruton 102
T17 Vada Pinson 100
T17 Hi Myers 100
T17 Sammy West 100
20 Clyde Milan 89



CF

RUNS CREATED
1 Willie Mays 2355
2 Tris Speaker 2352
3 Ty Cobb 2197
4 Mickey Mantle 1771
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1523
6 Joe DiMaggio 1491
7 Richie Ashburn 1386
8 Earl Averill 1329
9 Duke Snider 1249
10 Bernie Williams 1235
11 Edd Roush 1200
12 Doc Cramer 1189
13 Brett Butler 1184
14 Kenny Lofton 1135
15 Steve Finley 1134
16 Willie Davis 1130
17 Amos Otis 1104
18 Vada Pinson 1058
19 Larry Doby 1049
20 Max Carey 1046
CF

SECONDARY AVERAGE
1 Mickey Mantle .509
2 Ken Griffey Jr. .416
3 Willie Mays .412
4 Jimmy Wynn .408
5 Duke Snider .393
6 Joe DiMaggio .381
7 Larry Doby .378
8 Dale Murphy .360
9 Earl Averill .339
10 Bernie Williams .338
11 Fred Lynn .332
12 Ty Cobb .326
13 Rick Monday .325
14 Tris Speaker .322
15 Lenny Dykstra .321
16 Cesar Cedeno .316
17 Kenny Lofton .309
18 Lloyd Moseby .305
19 Steve Finley .295
20 Amos Otis .289



CF

RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Mickey Mantle 10.26
2 Ty Cobb 9.57
3 Joe DiMaggio 9.24
4 Tris Speaker 8.61
5 Earl Averill 8.29
6 Willie Mays 7.89
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 7.79
8 Duke Snider 7.71
9 Larry Doby 7.28
10 Earle Combs 7.06
11 Bernie Williams 7.00
12 Fred Lynn 6.43
13 Baby Doll Jacobson 6.38
14 Jimmy Wynn 6.37
15 Dale Murphy 6.30
16 Roy Thomas 6.29
17 Lenny Dykstra 6.28
18 Kenny Lofton 6.25
19 Dom DiMaggio 6.16
20 Richie Ashburn 6.14


Top Center Fielders using this method: (20Pts for 1st down to 1pt. for 20th)
295-Willie Mays
273-Ty Cobb
262-Mickey Mantle
262-Tris Speaker
260-Joe DiMaggio
235-Ken Griffey Jr.(through 2003)
209-Earl Averill
175-Duke Snider
163-Bernie Williams(through 2003)
126-Larry Doby
106-Fred Lynn
94-Edd Roush
83-Willie Davis
70-Jimmy Wynn
64-Dale Murphy
69-Richie Ashburn
72-Earle Combs
46-Amos Otis
45-Vada Pinson
42-Lloyd Waner
40-Kirby Puckett
33-Cesar Cedeno
31-Jim Edmonds(through 2003)

[csh19792001]

Originally Posted by nightal

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Edd Roush 1069
20 Marquis Grissom 1059

Where did you get these stats!?

Great work, Nightal.

[Brad Harris]

Bernie Williams already has 292 career win shares. This is more than Earl Averill, Earle Combs, Larry Doby, Kirby Puckett or Lloyd Waner and very close to Hugh Duffy (294) and Edd Roush (314).

Win shares confirms my subjective evalation: that Williams is as good or better than the bottom third of center fielders already in the Hall of Fame. He's on his last legs now and I don't suspect him to be much of a contributor over the last few years of his career so his career win shares will probably settle just over the 300 mark.

He'll be a good candidate, statistically, but I'm willing to bet money that he's one-and-done by the BBWAA when his name is called. Of course...I would have bet money the same was true of Willie McGee, but 26 morons, err...BBWAA voters..proved me wrong.

[DoubleX]

Bernie might have a few more decent seasons left in him and could pass 300 homeruns and 2500 hits, that would make his candidacy much more attractive. After Griffey Jr., Bernie was the best CF of the 90's, but even while playing for high profile Yankees teams, I never felt that Bernie got the respect he deserved. Opposing pitchers and managers spoke with reverence about having to be careful when pitching to Bernie, but I don't think the media or fans ever embraced him as being as good as he was.

[Aegis]

Nightal, you do great work with those stat lists, but you left Puckett off of a number of them.

As far as postseason stats go, yeah; the increase in postseason series overmagnifies Bernie's stats. In 10 trips to the postseason he's played in 23 individual series. That wasn't even possible back in the day.

I think Puckett's better than Williams, and the former's induction should be no demand for the latter's. Need I remind people that Williams' Black and Gray Ink scores are 4/61? That's something conspicuously left out of the original post, especially since he saw fit to mention the other two Jamesian categories. The only two things Williams has ever led the league in are BA once and IBB once. For reference, Puckett's scores are 22/122. Bernie certainly hits for more HR, but Puckett hit for more 2B and 3B, and has a better 162 game average for TB. Puckett has a FP of .989, .001 below Bernie. He has six GG, two more than Bernie. He went to 10 AS games, five more than Bernie. In two fewer years.

Please, stop favorably comparing the two.

[JACKIE42]

[quote=Sashag]

Originally Posted by Jake

What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

You beat me to it, thats my feeling also.

[DoubleX]

[quote=Sashag]

Originally Posted by Jake

What about him holding the records for postseason RBIs and homers?

Bernie's post season stats, and records, along with everyone elses, aren't valid for the argument you are trying to make. Since baseball has expanded to the Division Series and Championship Series, there are clearly A LOT more games to play, and therefore, a lot more chances for more at-bats.
For this reason, Bernie's post season stats, and everyone else's are not valid in the "here is why he should be a HOFer..." argument, or any other argument for that matter. -Sasha

They're valid, just not valid when comparing Bernie Williams to Mickey Mantle or anyone who played prior to the modern playoff format. But I think it's useful when comparing Bernie to his peers and later players when assessing Hall of Fame worthiness.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by DoubleX

They're valid, just not valid when comparing Bernie Williams to Mickey Mantle or anyone who played prior to the modern playoff format. But I think it's useful when comparing Bernie to his peers and later players when assessing Hall of Fame worthiness.

I disagree. Higher postseason stats for one man over another do not inherently indicate that the former is a better player. There are other factors to be considered, such as the teams the juxtaposed players compete on. Is Enos Slaughter better than Stan Musial because he has the same or better postseason stats in R, H, 3B, HR, RBI, BB, BA, OBP, and SLG in 7 fewer AB? The only category Musial leads in is 2B. Also, if you start talking about the postseason, where do you draw the line between a great player on bad teams and an okay player on great teams?

[nightal]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Nightal, you do great work with those stat lists, but you left Puckett off of a number of them.

As far as postseason stats go, yeah; the increase in postseason series overmagnifies Bernie's stats. In 10 trips to the postseason he's played in 23 individual series. That wasn't even possible back in the day.

I think Puckett's better than Williams, and the former's induction should be no demand for the latter's. Need I remind people that Williams' Black and Gray Ink scores are 4/61? That's something conspicuously left out of the original post, especially since he saw fit to mention the other two Jamesian categories. The only two things Williams has ever led the league in are BA once and IBB once. For reference, Puckett's scores are 22/122. Bernie certainly hits for more HR, but Puckett hit for more 2B and 3B, and has a better 162 game average for TB. Puckett has a FP of .989, .001 below Bernie. He has six GG, two more than Bernie. He went to 10 AS games, five more than Bernie. In two fewer years.

Please, stop favorably comparing the two.

I didn't leave Puckett off of a damn thing. He was top 20 on the ones you see him on. Do your research or look/learn from my homework.
Williams compares very favorably to the overrated Puckett.
And as for what you "think", hey that's great! But the numbers do not lie.

yours
al

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by nightal

I didn't leave Puckett off of a damn thing. He was top 20 on the ones you see him on. Do your research or look/learn from my homework.
Williams compares very favorably to the overrated Puckett.
And as for what you "think", hey that's great! But the numbers do not lie.

yours
al

I love you too.

Adjusted lists: (New Puckett listing bolded, old # to the side)

CF

RUNS
1 Willie Mays 2062
2 Tris Speaker 1882
3 Ty Cobb 1786
4 Mickey Mantle 1452
5 Doc Cramer 1357
6 Richie Ashburn 1322
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 1271
T8 Joe DiMaggio 1258
T8 Brett Butler 1258
10 Kenny Lofton 1245
11 Willie Davis 1167
12 Earl Averill 1158
13 Steve Finley 1154
14 Bernie Williams 1143
15 Lloyd Waner 1120
16 Max Carey 1106
17 Amos Otis 1086
18 Duke Snider 1077
19 Kirby Puckett 1071 (n/a)
20 Edd Roush 1069

CF

HITS
1 Tris Speaker 3511
2 Ty Cobb 3284
3 Willie Mays 3283
4 Doc Cramer 2705
5 Richie Ashburn 2574
6 Willie Davis 2445
7 Edd Roush 2309
8 Kirby Puckett 2304 (15)
9 Lloyd Waner 2274
10 Brett Butler 2189
11 Ken Griffey Jr. 2080
12 Mickey Mantle 2021
13 Joe DiMaggio 2008
T14 Vada Pinson 2004
T14 Amos Otis 2004
16 Steve Finley 1993
17 Marquis Grissom 1991
18 Bernie Williams 1950
19 Kenny Lofton 1943
20 Earl Averill 1924

OPS
1 Mickey Mantle 1.018
2 Joe DiMaggio .982
3 Ty Cobb .964
4 Willie Mays .941
5 Ken Griffey Jr. .940
6 Duke Snider .937
7 Earl Averill .935
8 Tris Speaker .929
9 Larry Doby .885
10 Bernie Williams .882
11 Fred Lynn .859
12 Earle Combs .857
13 Dale Murphy .849
14 Jimmy Wynn .844
15 Baby Doll Jacobson .842
16 Kirby Puckett .837 (16)
17 Cy Williams .824
18 Edd Roush .819
19 Cesar Cedeno .814
20 Chet Lemon .813

EXTRA BASE HITS

1 Willie Mays 1323
2 Tris Speaker 1131
3 Ty Cobb 901
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 899
5 Mickey Mantle 819
6 Joe DiMaggio 793
7 Duke Snider 732
8 Earl Averill 722
9 Steve Finley 702
10 Willie Davis 681
11 Kirby Puckett 678 (17)
12 Bernie Williams 666
13 Vada Pinson 654
14 Fred Lynn 635
15 Amos Otis 629
16 Marquis Grissom 594
17 Edd Roush 575
18 Cesar Cedeno 544
19 Doc Cramer 542
20 Larry Doby 541

HOMERUNS

1 Willie Mays 660
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 481
3 Mickey Mantle 464
4 Duke Snider 345
5 Joe DiMaggio 332
6 Fred Lynn 257
7 Jim Edmonds 255
8 Larry Doby 253
9 Steve Finley 244
10 Bernie Williams 241
11 Dale Murphy 240
12 Earl Averill 227
13 Jimmy Wynn 218
14 Rick Monday 212
15 Kirby Puckett 207 (n/a)
T16 Hack Wilson 200
T16 Marquis Grissom 200
18 Andruw Jones 198
19 Vada Pinson 196
20 Gorman Thomas 194

RBI

1 Willie Mays 1903
2 Tris Speaker 1536
3 Ty Cobb 1466
4 Joe DiMaggio 1412
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1384
6 Mickey Mantle 1289
7 Earl Averill 1100
8 Duke Snider 1097
9 Kirby Puckett 1085 (16)
10 Bernie Williams 1062
11 Willie Davis 1001
12 Amos Otis 997
13 Larry Doby 955
14 Edd Roush 946
15 Fred Lynn 934
16 Steve Finley 915
17 Kirby Puckett 874
18 Doc Cramer 842
19 Vada Pinson 841
20 Marquis Grissom 833

DOUBLES

1 Tris Speaker 792
2 Ty Cobb 568
3 Willie Mays 523
4 Kirby Puckett 414 (13)
5 Doc Cramer 396
6 Ken Griffey Jr. 382
7 Willie Davis 374
8 Earl Averill 373
9 Bernie Williams 372
10 Amos Otis 370
11 Vada Pinson 358
12 Steve Finley 356
13 Joe DiMaggio 345
14 Fred Lynn 343
15 Marquis Grissom 342
16 Sammy West 341
17 Garry Maddox 337
18 Cesar Cedeno 332
19 Edd Roush 331
20 Kenny Lofton 318

RUNS CREATED

1 Willie Mays 2355
2 Tris Speaker 2352
3 Ty Cobb 2197
4 Mickey Mantle 1771
5 Ken Griffey Jr. 1523
6 Joe DiMaggio 1491
7 Richie Ashburn 1386
8 Earl Averill 1329
9 Duke Snider 1249
10 Kirby Puckett 1242 (n/a)
11 Bernie Williams 1235
12 Edd Roush 1200
13 Doc Cramer 1189
14 Brett Butler 1184
15 Kenny Lofton 1135
16 Steve Finley 1134
17 Willie Davis 1130
18 Amos Otis 1104
19 Vada Pinson 1058
20 Larry Doby 1049

I don't even know what to do with some of those other stats. I may recalculate Puckett's and Williams' standings in a minute, but I doubt I'm going to bother to go through everyone.

[Aegis]

New totals: (change +/-)

Williams - 159 (-4)
Puckett - 88 (+48)

I might take a look at lists of those other stats sometime.

[nightal]

Originally Posted by Aegis

New totals: (change +/-)

Williams - 159 (-4)
Puckett - 88 (+48)

I might take a look at lists of those other stats sometime.

Ok, I'll bite what "adjustments" did you use?
It sounds like "Leveling The Field", Blackdog Publishing; 2002, but isn't quite as accurate.
Some people deal with "adjustments", or "leveling", I'm just an old fashioned-"what really happened" Lee Sinins stats kind of guy.

but, hey that's me

al

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by nightal

Ok, I'll bite what "adjustments" did you use?

...I just looked up his stats. Plugged 'em in. Williams only loses a few points because Puckett jumps ahead of him in a few places. At first glance Williams' numbers are a-OK through 2003 on this list, but almost nothing I'm seeing concerning Puckett is matching up.

[cubbieinexile]

I have a feeling Nightal was using Lee Sinnins Sabremetric Encyclopedia and had the filters set too high to include Kirby in the lists.

[nightal]

Originally Posted by cubbieinexile

I have a feeling Nightal was using Lee Sinnins Sabremetric Encyclopedia and had the filters set too high to include Kirby in the lists.

Yes, I was using the encyclopedia, but used 5000 at bats as the only filter. ABTW, what filters could have kept Kirby out? If that was the case, he would not have appeared on any list. You conspiracy theorist. OBTW, I used games played only in center field!, not DH or left or right field,second base, shortstop or third base-- CENTER FIELD only. Thought that is what we were discussing. That's why you see the CF before each category.


al

[nightal]

Originally Posted by Aegis

...I just looked up his stats. Plugged 'em in. Williams only loses a few points because Puckett jumps ahead of him in a few places. At first glance Williams' numbers are a-OK through 2003 on this list, but almost nothing I'm seeing concerning Puckett is matching up.

Because you counted all positions, not just center field.
RF-276 games
DH-91
LF-10
2B-4
3B-4
SS-3

[Aegis]

80%~ of his games in CF. I can maybe see cutting out DH stats, but the rest? Why?

[nightal]

Top Center Fielders using this method:
295-Willie Mays
273-Ty Cobb
262-Mickey Mantle
262-Tris Speaker
260-Joe DiMaggio
235-Ken Griffey Jr.(through 2003)
209-Earl Averill
175-Duke Snider
163-Bernie Williams(through 2003)
126-Larry Doby
106-Fred Lynn
94-Edd Roush
83-Willie Davis
70-Jimmy Wynn
64-Dale Murphy
69-Richie Ashburn
72-Earle Combs
46-Amos Otis
45-Vada Pinson
42-Lloyd Waner
40-Kirby Puckett------this is not a first ballot guy
33-Cesar Cedeno
31-Jim Edmonds(through 2003)



I don't think Puckett is one of the 20 greatest Center Fielders. These numbers are through 2003, minimum 5000 At Bats while playing Center Field.


Here's part of my original post concerning center fielders. As you can see I said Center Fielders. I took only Kirb's (and everyone else's) numbers while they were playing center.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by Aegis

80%~ of his games in CF. I can maybe see cutting out DH stats, but the rest? Why?

Aegis,

I think you missed the 276 games Puckett played in RF.

By comparison, before 2004, Bernie had played in his career a grand total of 33 games at positions other than CF (25 DH, 4 LF, 4 RF). He had another 50 games at DH this year.