Jim Edmonds

[tonjes]

i'm sure many of you saw jim edmonds' catch friday against the reds. that catch was arguably the best of his career (yes, better than the diving over the shoulder catch he made with anaheim several years ago). that ball was around four feet beyond the wall when he snagged it. judging by the smile on his face, i think he even surprised himself after he came down with that ball.

simply put, the guy is amazing. he reads the ball off the bat better than anyone is baseball, plus he has a cannon for an arm. in my opinion he is one of the top 5 defensive cf's ever.

the guy isn't a slouch with the bat either. he's a career .293 hitter, and has been an important fixture in the middle of the cards lineup since arriving before the 2000 season.

considering his defensive credentials (6 gold gloves and counting) and offensive credentials, is it conceivable that he'll end up in cooperstown someday? if not, what will it take for him to be inducted?

[ElHalo]

He's not a top 5 all time defensive CF'er. Max Carey / Tris Speaker / Richie Ashburn / Willie Mays / Paul Blair / and we're done, and there's more that are better than Jim besides those. He's probably not even the best of his own time; a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. beats him out defensively.

His rate numbers are pretty good, but his ink totals are lousy. He's pretty good with the bat, but he's never been among the league's best at any particular time.

I don't know if it would be a travesty if he got in the Hall... but he'd certainly be one of the worst players there. I can't imagine him getting in.

[tonjes]

ok. those guys are all incredible outfielders, but things aren't as clear as you make them out to be. i've seen jim play in person countless times. he has a certain instinct about playing outfield that i've never seen before. sometimes he's a little dramatic, but that's how he plays the game. a lot of times guys with flash, get careless, and make foolish mistakes. this is not the case with him. i think you should give him a little more consideration.

btw...

here are the career fielding percentages of edmonds along with the gentlemen you named earlier:

edmonds .989
ashburn .983
carey .966
blair .987
mays .981
speaker .971
griffey, jr .985

[ElHalo]

Ok, but FP is essentially a useless stat, especially for outfielders. I'll give you the RF+ for all of those guys... or their range factor, i.e., the total number of balls that they get to, indexed for league average to cancel era effects.

Ashburn: 144
Mays: 135
Speaker: 129
Carey: 128
Paul Blair: 122
Griffey: 105
Edmonds: 104

So in other words... Ashburn got to 44% more balls than the average guy, Mays got to 35% more than the average guy, and so on. These numbers aren't an entirely accurate representation of fielding skills; common consensus is that Speaker is the best CF of all time. But it's a lot closer representation than FP.

Edmonds is good, sure. Great player, and probably the best all around CF'er in the game right now. But not really Hall of Fame calibre.

And he's also got one of the most annoying baseballreference.com sponsors I've seen... the guy says that Edmonds is the "greatest OF'er in Cardinals history," then proceeds to call himself a Cardinals memorabilia dealer. Sorry, but if you think Edmonds is better than Stan the Man, you're not a baseball fan.

I don't mean to demean your guy; trust me, I love Jim Edmonds, and I was sad to see him leave the American League a few years back. But he's really just not a Hall calibre player. His defense is great, but it's not all time great (we have very few all time great defenders playing the game right now... Pudge Rodriguez, Greg Maddux, Omar Vizquel, Andruw Jones... maybe Scott Rolen. That's about it). And Edmonds' career offensive value doesn't crack the top 25 players active right now. That's just not a HoF career to me. Unless he somehow turns into Barry Bonds, he doesn't make it.

I'll put it this way: Among CF'ers, Edmonds' rough contemporary, Bernie Williams, who has a better Hall case than Edmonds (only 2 fewer GG's, significantly better ink totals, better AS and MVP voting showings, a batting title, and a key role on a 4 time WS champ)... is a solid NO on the HoF. If somebody with a better case than Edmonds ain't making it, Edmonds ain't making it.

[leecemark]

--I'm inclined to agree that Edmonds has an extremely marginal Halll of Fame case. He would have to remain at his current level of play for much longer than seems likely to pile up career numbers good enough to offset the fact that he was never truely on of the best players in teh game at any given time.
--Defensively I don't know that he is one of the best 5 CF of his own generation, much less all time. He is good and makes alot of highlight plays. However, many of his webgems would be routine plays for players with better range such as Andrew Jones, Mike Cameron or Tori Hunter.

[tonjes]

Originally Posted by ElHalo

FP is essentially a useless stat

first, i wouldn't say it is useless, but i agree with you in that it cannot be solely relied upon. i was just using it for a quick comparison. anyways, how do they calculate rf+?

Originally Posted by ElHalo

And he's also got one of the most annoying baseballreference.com sponsors I've seen... the guy says that Edmonds is the "greatest OF'er in Cardinals history...

second, that's funny.

Originally Posted by ElHalo

we have very few all time great defenders playing the game right now... maybe Scott Rolen

third, no maybe here. he is a hell of a ballplayer. mike schmidt says rolen is the best 3B he's ever seen.

i guess i feel that guys on the cards are overlooked because they play in st. louis, and not new york, chicago, boston, etc.

personally, i think edmonds is a long shot to get into the hall of fame. he probably needs 4 more gold gloves, reach 2000+ hits, 400 home runs, and maintain a batting average close to .300. he just turned 34, so he's got his work cut out for him. even if he accomplishes these feats, it will still be tough for him to get in.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by tonjes

first, i wouldn't say it is useless, but i agree with you in that it cannot be solely relied upon. i was just using it for a quick comparison. anyways, how do they calculate rf+?

Well, first you calculate Range Factor... which is (assists + putouts)/games played.

Then you calculate the league RF for that position.

Third, you divide the player's RF by the league RF and multpily by 100... that gives you RF+, an index for how good the player's RF is compared to league average.

If they've got an RF+ of 98, say, that means that they get to 2 percent fewer balls than the average player at that position. If it's 100, that means that they're exactly at the average point.

As you can imagine, Ashburn's RF+ is pretty incredible... he got to almost half again as many balls as the average guy. Pretty ridiculous.

[tonjes]

thanks. very interesting.

well i stand corrected on this. i still think his positioning is close to flawless, but i guess it has to be to make up for his lack of speed.

...and i'd still take him over griffey, andruw jones, torii hunter, or mike cameron.

[PumpsieGreen]

Jim Edmonds has been one of baseball's best centerfielders for awhile now, but that doesn't make him a hall of famer. Actually, there are only two centerfielders who I believe can become hall of famers down the road, Ken Griffey, Jr.(of course), and Andruw Jones, so while that statement is credible, it's not going to put him in hall contention. Edmonds has been a very good offensive player, but he's not one of the best. His defense is awesome, as it has been for his career, but this is a time of great defensive centerfielders. he doesn't have enough credibility, in my mind, to enter the hall, and, at 34, his age is against him.

Pumpsie

[cardinals03]

His defense puts him on the edge of the HOF, but his offensive output will not. He doesn't have a batting title to his credit, no MVP, did not lead the league in HR's during any of his playing years and he is a sub .300 hitter lifetime. Without getting some better credentials offensively, I think he is a big long shot at making it.

The only way he gets in is what I call the Ozzie Smith rule, which Edmonds is on the border of in my opinion. Ozzie was the best of his era and some say the best at the position all time (defensively that is). Edmonds ranks up there with the best of his era, but I believe it would be hard to sell that he was the best ever (which is how Ozzie ultimately got in).

[DoubleX]

I've made an argument for Bernie Williams before that he at least deserves some hall consideration because as a CF, he and his stats should be considered differently than a corner OF...

For the sake of perspective, I was about to ask who is a more viable CF hall candidate, Bernie or Edmonds? But then I looked at Edmonds career totals, and while his homeruns are slightly higher than Bernie, most of his other stats are miles behind Williams. Edmonds is not getting younger, so I think if Bernie is at best a questionable case, Edmonds, albeit amazing defensively, does not have much of a case at all unless he surges into his late 30's. Who knows, maybe he'll be able to be productive offensively until 40, like Steve Finley. If that ends up the case, I'd have to consider Edmonds a possible hall candidate as a CF.

[leecemark]

--Throwing Finley into the mix, who has the better case between Finely, Williams and Edmonds? I'm not sold on any of them, but if you had to vote for one who would it be?

[ElHalo]

I wouldn't put any of the three in, but if I absolutely had to chose, I'd go Bernie, then Edmonds, then Finley.

[DoubleX]

I didn't actually mean to throw Finley in as a viable candidate because if I had to rank the players, I'd have the same list as El Halo - Finley an obvious third. I just meant that if Edmonds can have the kind of production into his late 30's that Finley has had, I think Edmonds numbers combined with he highlight-roll defense, may make him a decent candidate. Finley has had a very admirable career as a CF, but he didn't really get going until his early/mid 30's. I think if you combine the career of Edmonds with Finley, you get at least a decent case. If Edmonds can play his last 4-6 years like Finley, I think if you combine those seasons with Edmonds' good early career (which Finley didn't have), Edmonds might just might have a case.

Though since we're throwing new players into the mix, where does Lofton stack up amidst the CF's of the last 10-12 years? I think it's pretty obvious that Griffey's first, but can the case be made that Lofton has been better than any combination of Williams, Edmonds and Finley?

[tonjes]

...interesting.

i think kenny lofton at his best was more important to his team, than the three other guys mentioned in the previous post. mostly because having a leadoff hitter as complete as he was is incredibly rare. i think he would be a sure fire hall of famer if he were able to stretch is performances from 1993-1996 over a decade or so. but he didn't, so there is no argument for him eventually getting in.

[Brad Harris]

Joe Sheehan had a nice article on Jim Edmonds' Hall of Fame credentials here.

I happen to agree with him. Edmonds is - intrinsically - a Hall-of-Fame caliber player. He just doesn't look like one to the BGC (Bubble Gum Card) stat crowd.

[538280]

Originally Posted by Chancellor

Joe Sheehan had a nice article on Jim Edmonds' Hall of Fame credentials here.

I happen to agree with him. Edmonds is - intrinsically - a Hall-of-Fame caliber player. He just doesn't look like one to the BGC (Bubble Gum Card) stat crowd.

I would agree, but I do think Edmonds needs about three more solid years. As of right now, his WS numbers aren't really HOF caliber, but with three more years and about 60 more career WS he probably will be up there.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Originally Posted by 538280

I would agree, but I do think Edmonds needs about three more solid years. As of right now, his WS numbers aren't really HOF caliber, but with three more years and about 60 more career WS he probably will be up there.

He's at the Averill, Berger, Wilson, Klein level right now. Whether he has three more good years left is anybody's guess.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

double post

[538280]

Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules

He's at the Averill, Berger, Wilson, Klein level right now. Whether he has three more good years left is anybody's guess.

I would agree, but I don't think the Averill/Wilson/Klein level is HOF level. None of those players really deserved the HOF. Wally Berger is a different case, I could see him as a HOF deserving player.

If Edmonds has a few more years I see him lifting into the Wynn/Doby/Puckett level, which is HOF level IMO.

[Sockeye]

He's 35 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.

I think he could very well end up with

Games 2197
At-Bats 7694
Runs 1471
Hits 2241
Doubles 501
Triples 29
Home Runs 458
RBI's 1381
Stolen Bases 81
Walks 1142
AVG .288
OBP .380
SLG .540

[538280]

I think Edmonds will be deserving of the HOF at the end of his career as long as he has about two or three more good years. He is a perfect example of how stats on a baseball card don't even come close to telling you how valuable a player is.

[Sockeye]

I think Edmonds needs about 3 more good seasons and then he'll be a lock for the HOF. That being said he looks like he still has a lot of good baseball left in him and should be able to achieve that.

[STLCards2]

Originally Posted by Sockeye

He's 35 and in his 14th season. I would like to get some thoughts on his career thus far and if possible some insight on where you think his career totals will end up? I know this calls for a lot of speculation. So I'll be the first to throw some projections out there.

I think he could very well end up with

Games 2197
At-Bats 7694
Runs 1471
Hits 2241
Doubles 501
Triples 29
Home Runs 458
RBI's 1381
Stolen Bases 81
Walks 1142
AVG .288
OBP .380
SLG .540

If you had seen Edmonds everyday the past 2 seasons, you would realize that he will not end up with numbers that good. His offense and defense have already deteriated, and he is on record saying he doesn't want to play more than a year or two more.

[rockin500]

edmonds is deteriating pretty quickly it seems like. I just dont see the numbers adding up for him to be considered. This is just based on the way his career is arcing.