Bagwell

[CoachMJ]

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get 3000 hits, he struck out more times than he had an RBI. his career average was .297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. Maybe "he Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame" but not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that when everybody was fessing up to steroids, he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in college at UHA and he was a fungo. almost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.

[EvanAparra]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get5 3000 hits, he struck otu more times than he had an RBI. his career average was 297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. mayeb The Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame, bt not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that during the steroid fiasco he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in coolege at UHA and he was a fungo. slmost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.

Sorry Coach, but you're completely and utterly wrong here.

HOF Standards: Batting - 59.0 (31) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 149.5 (78) (Likely HOFer > 100)

And that is WITH great defense, something that his slugging peers such as McGwire can't claim. One of the best players of the 90s, he and Biggio will both be in when it's all said and done.

Lets look at his "most similar players"...

Frank Thomas (897)
Gary Sheffield (895)
Fred McGriff (865)
Willie Stargell (844) *
Andres Galarraga (843)
Ken Griffey (834)
Orlando Cepeda (827) *
Mickey Mantle (818) *
Willie McCovey (813) *
Duke Snider (810) *

The guys with the asterik are already in the hall of fame, and Frank Thomas and Griffey are shoo-ins, with McGriff and Sheffield both also very likely to go in. Good company huh?

He's easily a HOFer, and maybe even a first ballot HOFer.

[TheJourneyman]

First ballot? Maybe?
HOFer? YES!

[punker268]

definetly HOF

[KCGHOST]

If we decide to keep Bagwell out because he wasn't good enough we will set a bar so high that we will only have inductions every five years or more. Also we will have to throw out 3/4ths the guys already in.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by KCGHOST

If we decide to keep Bagwell out because he wasn't good enough we will set a bar so high that we will only have inductions every five years or more. Also we will have to throw out 3/4ths the guys already in.

But shouldnt it be hard to get in the hall of fame? i mean do we want it to be liek football where there are mandatory inductions every year? should players liek jim rice and don mattingly be in the HOF? don mattingly is y favorite player of all time. but he probably doesnt really deserve the hall of fame. i just was dumbfounded when i saw that 60 percent of the country thought bagwell should be in the hall. i think emotion gets involved to much with fans. the guy was a good hitter. great astro, good player, not a hall of famer.

[PopTop]

Bagwell's already in my HOF. Couldn't give a rat's rump what the goombahs with the BBWAA decide. During his active years, there isn't another 1B that I would take over Baggy who had it all: Power, speed, average, defense.

Steroids don't really figure into it for me. The BBWAA is going to hold their own court now on who is completely above suspicion for using enhacing drugs. This is the same group that buried their heads like the rest of us when it was all going on. This is also the same group that has never been able to totally agree on other greats like Willie Mays, Ted Williams, et al. Sorry, but I can't think of one reason, other than something personal, not to vote for players like Mays and Williams.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by PopTop

Bagwell's already in my HOF. Couldn't give a rat's rump what the goombahs with the BBWAA decide. During his active years, there isn't another 1B that I would take over Baggy who had it all: Power, speed, average, defense.

Steroids don't really figure into it for me. The BBWAA is going to hold their own court now on who is completely above suspicion for using enhacing drugs. This is the same group that buried their heads like the rest of us when it was all going on. This is also the same group that has never been able to totally agree on other greats like Willie Mays, Ted Williams, et al. Sorry, but I can't think of one reason, other than something personal, not to vote for players like Mays and Williams.

I dont agree with the baseball writers assocation on much of what they say or vote for. i thnk jeff bagwell was a very good player. HOF? ehh. i mena not everone can make it in to the hall. and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

I dont agree with the baseball writers assocation on much of what they say or vote for. i thnk jeff bagwell was a very good player. HOF? ehh. i mena not everone can make it in to the hall. and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.

Goombah also was a video game character. I really doubt PopTop meant it in a derogatory nature, but anyway . . .

Where do you draw the line, Coach? You mentioned the magical numbers of 500 and 3000. Is that your gauge?

[EvanAparra]

If Bagwell isn't voted in, I dont think i'll ever care about HOF voting again.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose

Goombah also was a video game character. I really doubt PopTop meant it in a derogatory nature, but anyway . . .

Where do you draw the line, Coach? You mentioned the magical numbers of 500 and 3000. Is that your gauge?

no thats not my line, but i think those two make you a shoe-in. as long as it didnt take 22 years to get them. im just so surprised that so many peopel consider him a hall of famer. i mean his numbers are similiar to albert belles, but belle isnt a hall of famer. hey bagwell is a CT guy and im from CT. i liek him but HOF, i dont think so.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

no thats not my line, but i think those two make you a shoe-in. as long as it didnt take 22 years to get them. im just so surprised that so many peopel consider him a hall of famer. i mean his numbers are similiar to albert belles, but belle isnt a hall of famer. hey bagwell is a CT guy and im from CT. i liek him but HOF, i dont think so.

He's considered a HOF'er because he was an excellent hitter who produced big numbers during his era. His numbers are very comparable to a lot of HOF players, as demonstrated by Evan's list. Is he Jimmie Foxx? No. If that's what you feel is a HOF'er, I can see excluding him. I watched Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker their entire careers, and I never felt they were really HOF'ers but there are scores of very knowledgable baseball people on this site who think otherwise. They haven't convinced me, but that's not for here.

I take it you're not a peak guy. Belle had a monster peak but his career value is not so hot.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose

He's considered a HOF'er because he was an excellent hitter who produced big numbers during his era. His numbers are very comparable to a lot of HOF players, as demonstrated by Evan's list. Is he Jimmie Foxx? No. If that's what you feel is a HOF'er, I can see excluding him. I watched Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker their entire careers, and I never felt they were really HOF'ers but there are scores of very knowledgable baseball people on this site who think otherwise. They haven't convinced me, but that's not for here.

I take it you're not a peak guy. Belle had a monster peak but his career value is not so hot.

i dotn even think griffey should make the hall of fame. part of being a great athelte is stayign healthy enought to play. injuries are not a freak thing. they coem form nto conditioning properly and not enough flexibility. i lke bagwell but after he lost 60 pounds during the steroid fiasco and then couldnt stay healthy, i became sour.

Bagwell's shoulder was screwed up before Barry Bonds hit all those home runs and the steroid scandal heated up. It wasn't his muscles deteriorating, it was the fact his shoulder was bad and arthritic. He's among the top 5 first basemen of all time and a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr. Coach has seriously missed the mark.

You're right that it should be hard to make the hall of fame, but Bagwell isn't just another solid ballplayer. He was among the best of the best and, in many opinions, the best first baseman of his era.

Incedentally, I think Biggio was the greatest Astro ever, but that's for another discussion.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by JackAigner

You're right that it should be hard to make the hall of fame, but Bagwell isn't just another solid ballplayer. He was among the best of the best and, in many opinions, the best first baseman of his era.

Incedentally, I think Biggio was the greatest Astro ever, but that's for another discussion.

you know i thought about that. biggio being the greatest astro ever i mean.

Buster Onley must be following my posts becasue he just wrote an article, on espn-insider, discussing the very same topic.is bagwell hall of fame or not. as far as him beign the best first basemen of his era? i mean. there were a lot of great firstbasemen in the last 14 years. i dotn think he stuck out more than olerud or palmeiro or anymroe of the good firstbasemen.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

i dotn even think griffey should make the hall of fame. part of being a great athelte is stayign healthy enought to play. injuries are not a freak thing. they coem form nto conditioning properly and not enough flexibility. i lke bagwell but after he lost 60 pounds during the steroid fiasco and then couldnt stay healthy, i became sour.

That's your own bias, but it's legit to a point. But players do get injured regardless of how well-conditioned they are. What if a player is beaned? What if they slide hard and break their leg. All the conditioning in the world isn't going to prevent the body from harm from what is essentially unnatural movement.
If Olney or anyone at ESPN took your idea, it won't be the first time that's happened. Can you post that article? I'm not an insider.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose

That's your own bias, but it's legit to a point. But players do get injured regardless of how well-conditioned they are. What if a player is beaned? What if they slide hard and break their leg. All the conditioning in the world isn't going to prevent the body from harm from what is essentially unnatural movement.
If Olney or anyone at ESPN took your idea, it won't be the first time that's happened. Can you post that article? I'm not an insider.

yes hit by pitch and running into the catcher are accidents that cause injuries. but such a quick breakdown in joints and ligaments and such a dramatic increase in size all point to steroid abuse. i dotn disliek jeff bagwell at all. they guy was turned away at the university of new haven, went to the university of hartford and became a fantastic baseball player, beyond anyone who ever coached him, wildest dreams. i just think things should be more stringent when it comes to cooperstown. i also however believe that the players should have a vote when it comes to the hal lof fame. the writers are a joke.

[mwiggins]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

Over on ESPN.com ther is a vote wether or not Jeff bagwell shoudl get voted in to the HOF. I think this is a no brainer. and the answer is undoubtedly NO. he didnt get 500 HR,didnt get 3000 hits, he struck out more times than he had an RBI. his career average was .297 which is very good but HOF? NO WAY. Maybe "he Texas Basbeall Hall of Fame" but not Cooperstown. not to mention the fact that when everybody was fessing up to steroids, he lost 80 pounds and was injured for the rest of his career. i saw him play in college at UHA and he was a fungo. almost as skinny as he is now. Jeff bagwell was the best astro ever and a great ball player but not a hall of famer. sorry houston.

How are those not HoF #'s? There's a 200 or so players in the HoF. He's 41st in career RBI and 33rd in career HR's. He's higher than Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, and Yogi Berra in RBI; and is within 50 of Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Harry Heilmann, and Joe DiMaggio.

He has more HR's than Ripken, Snider, Kaline, Bench, and Billy Williams.

He's also 44th in career OBP, 35th in career SLG, 24th in career OPS, 34th in career OPS+, 31st in career EBH, 24th in career walks, and 56th in career total bases. All that while playing in the Astrodome in a post-integration league.

He's absolutely one of the best 50 hitters of all time, in addition to being a very good fielder and baserunner. If that's not HoF worthy, then lesser players like Ripken and Gwynn are going to be in for a rude suprise when they hear the results of this year's voting.

I like a stringent Hall too, but if Bagwell's not worthy, then the first base wing at the HoF is basically Gehrig, Foxx, and a bunch of mistakes.

[PopTop]

Originally Posted by CoachMJ

and im not so sure what you mean by "goombahs" other than its meaning, which is a derogatory term for italian americans. and i dont think theres room in this forum for bigotry.

First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

[lamearm]

Seem's I remember Martha Raye calling Rocky Grazianno Goomba on their tv show(showing my age or what/) and they were married. I guess the way it is viewed has changed from one era to the next. I just can't see pulling the race/bigot card on Pop.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by lamearm

Seem's I remember Martha Raye calling Rocky Grazianno Goomba on their tv show(showing my age or what/) and they were married. I guess the way it is viewed has changed from one era to the next. I just can't see pulling the race/bigot card on Pop.

Martha Raye and Rocky Graziano were married? Or was that the characters they were playing?
Grazaino was a little bit better actor than his byhood chum, Jake LaMotta. He did a great turn on Car 54 Where Are You with Sugar Ray Robinson.
Not showing my age, I saw it on Nick at Nite a few years back.

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by PopTop

First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

its ok big guy. im sure you didnt mean anything. LETS GO YANKS!!!!

ps: i now see that bagwell does have the numbers to be in the hall. not first ballot but i see it now. Also if mcguire doesnt go in thatn neother should Bags or Bonds or anybody who did juice. MJ

[CoachMJ]

Originally Posted by PopTop

First off, goombah is not necessarily a derogatory term. Secondly, I did mean it in a derogatory manner, i.e., the idiots and hypocrites within the BBWAA. Lastly, my TexMex butt married into a New York Italian family, so casually throwing around some overly sensitive race/ethnicity card won't get you very far with me.

If you don't think Bagwell deserves to be enshrined among the game's very best, that's fine by me. This is all subjective as far as I'm concerned, and everyone's entitled to their opinion on the matter. I respect the notions of some who feel the HOF is for the very cream, the top 1%-2% of the game. I happen to think Cooperstown is for the top 10% of the players all-time. No big whoop, just a difference of opinion.

And if someone wants to let their suspicions of steroid use guide their criteria for the Hall of Fame, well, I think that's wrong in many ways. But again, to each their own on that question.

its ok pal.

[lamearm]

Martha Raye and Rocky Graziano were married? Or was that the characters they were playing?

Now, ya see there. That's one of the things that happen when a guy gets old! You are right, they weren't married, except on the show...