Hoyt Wilhelm

[Jason R. Maier]

Be interesting if he would be a closer, a setup man, or float between the roatation and the bullpen (like Tim Wakefield has) in the present time.

[AlecBoy006]

I know he was a knuckler, but 227 saves and 20 + seasons. Is this man really a HOF'ER?

[EvanAparra]

Very good pitcher for a very long time -- 227 saves might not impress you, but a 146 ERA+ over 2200 innings impresses me. Still pitching at a very high level at the age of 48. I think he was rightfully inducted.

[DoubleX]

Originally Posted by AlecBoy006

I know he was a knuckler, but 227 saves and 20 + seasons. Is this man really a HOF'ER?

No question whatsoever, IMO. Wilhelm is perhaps the best and most valuable relief pitcher of all time. Wilhelm is not to be judged by his save total because for most of his career, saves were an irrelevant statistic and the idea of a "closer" was still years away. Wilhelm wouldn't just come out of the pen to pitch an inning or to a few batters like modern relievers, he'd come out of the pen all the time and rack up significant innings out of the pen. He only had one full season as a starter, but it was pretty darn good - a 173 ERA+ in 222 IP, so that illustrates his versatility, IMO. What's even more amazing about Wilhelm, IMO, is that his career didn't even get started until he was 29.

Wilhelm's career might be the most unique in the Hall of Fame. The only semi-comparable one might be Goose Gossage if/when he's finally put in.

[538280]

Wilhelm's being a reliever and not having saves is actually evidence of how he was MORE valuable than modern relief aces like Mariano Rivera, not less so. Bringing in a reliever solely for "save" situations is almost certainly the wrong way to use them, and this has been supported by just about every statistical study ever done on the subject. A reliever should be brought in when he is needed most, in the most important situations. Tie games are an example of very important situations when today's reliever is left out. Think about it, when would you rather have your relief ace in-7th inning when the game is tied or 9th inning when you have a 3 run lead? Even the worst pitchers in the league would rarely give up 3 runs in an inning.

[AlecBoy006]

Valid point Chris, but not how the game is played now a days due to money situations. If team has enough money for a reliever, you are gonna bring him in. Granted Rivera is so darn good.

[brett]

I have tended to hold that a reliever could be roughly compared to a starter if you ask what a starter would be worth with 1.5x the innings and the same ERA+, and by that standard, Wilhelm is one of the greatest pitchers ever, and you would have a hard time finding many other relievers even close. To compliment this I would look at 1/2 of save total (plus wins).

Wilhelm had about 1600 innings in relief and 650 as a starter so I come up with 1600 x 2 + 650 or 3850 innings with a 146 ERA+. (Also note that his ERA+ as a starter was actually right on with his ERA+ as a reliever which you might expect for a knuckler.

As for record, he had 143 wins and 227 saves, and giving him 1/2 credit for a save that turns into 256.5 wins.

256 wins and a 146 ERA+ for 3820 innings is awesome.

Do the same for Rivera and you get 2650 "innings" at a 200 ERA+ and 265 "wins"

Now Sutter would have just over 2000 "innings" at 136 ERA+ and 218 "wins" which is borderline, Quiz about 2000 "innings" at 146 and 178 "wins" also borderline, Gossage 3400 innings at 126 ERA+ and 279 "wins" which is Kevin Brown, or Mike Mussina or John Smoltz or Curt Schilling territory, actually a little better, which is right on, as I see him as a HOFer and those 4 as borderline at this point.

Lee Smith would be 2400 at 132 and over 300 wins though, and the problem here is that losses mean more and wins mean less when you pitch so few innings.

Again, its not perfect, and I might factor down to 1.5 innings 1/3 win per save for short save guys.

Originally Posted by AlecBoy006

I know he was a knuckler, but 227 saves and 20 + seasons. Is this man really a HOF'ER?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by AlecBoy006

Valid point Chris, but not how the game is played now a days due to money situations. If team has enough money for a reliever, you are gonna bring him in. Granted Rivera is so darn good.

The tail wags the dog these days. Relilevers complain when they aren't brought in during "save" situations; it lowers their saves totals.

Wilhelm was a "fireman", brought in at any time of the game, to do long or short relief. (Look at his IP totals.) Getting a win was as important to Wilhelm as getting a save.

[Jim Abbott]

Wilhelm is certainly worthy

[Los Bravos]

I've always been pleasently surprised that the voters of the time, who elected him, (who could be an obtuse lot, frankly), had enough vision to think outside the box and recognize his worthiness.

[CTaka]

Originally Posted by AlecBoy006

I know he was a knuckler, but 227 saves and 20 + seasons. Is this man really a HOF'ER?

On this one, I definitely agree with you. Wilhelm is really a HOF'ER - no question about it. His career ERA+ far exceeds fellow HOF relievers Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersley. He was the premier reliever of his era.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by CTaka

On this one, I definitely agree with you. Wilhelm is really a HOF'ER - no question about it. His career ERA+ far exceeds fellow HOF relievers Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersley. He was the premier reliever of his era.

He's certainly superior to Fingers.

As to Eck, he only had 7 years that were really Hall-worthy, although he was a real lights out guy at his best. I was never really sold on his induction, but I'm not going to lose sleep about it, either; he's a better pick than Sutter.

[Dodgerfan1]

I agree that Wilhelm certainly belongs. He was a fireman during the days when a relief pitcher really WAS a fireman. Brought into a game with runners on base when their was definitely a fire to put out. Modern closers strut in from the bullpen (for the most part) at the beginning of the 9th inning with no runners on base and no 'fire' situation to speak of. He is master of his own destiny, rather than having the pressure placed upon him of inheriting a mess. As such, it's an ironic fact that the fewer wins a closer has next to his final stat sheet, the better for him, as it means fewer blown saves. Sutter, in fact, had 68 career wins which, as a closer primarily, does not look too good for him. There may be other closers with more victories, but none I can think of at the moment.

In Wilhelm's day, a win would be a positive statistic, for the most part. Yes, the Old Sarge is a true HOFer, IMO.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Wilhelm is certainly a unique pitcher. The only pitcher I can think of that's remotely comparable, in the truest sense, is Firpo Marberry.

Eckersley was a starter, then a "closer"; distinct portions of his career. Wilhelm was used much differently than Eck; he was a "starter-reliever" for a period in his career.

[Paul Wendt]

Wilhelm is also different as a knuckleball pitcher. His ability to pitch on (how many?) consecutive days had a grounding different from, well, from whatever it is that modern managers manage.

Boston has sometimes used Tim Wakefield in relief. But I believe a consensus that knuckleball pitchers are better suited to starting predates Phil Niekro. When someone writes the story of the knuckleball it should include conventional wisdom about how to use a knuckleball artist as well as reasons why few are developed in this era.

Part of the Wilhelm story is the extra-large glove provided to his catchers by Paul Richards, iirc.

Certainly the passed balls are one "strike" against the knuckleball fireman --against putting the knuckster into a close game with runners on base.

[jalbright]

Originally Posted by Paul Wendt

Wilhelm is also different as a knuckleball pitcher. His ability to pitch on (how many?) consecutive days had a grounding different from, well, from whatever it is that modern managers manage.

Boston has sometimes used Tim Wakefield in relief. But I believe a consensus that knuckleball pitchers are better suited to starting predates Phil Niekro. When someone writes the story of the knuckleball it should include conventional wisdom about how to use a knuckleball artist as well as reasons why few are developed in this era.

Part of the Wilhelm story is the extra-large glove provided to his catchers by Paul Richards, iirc.

Certainly the passed balls are one "strike" against the knuckleball fireman --against putting the knuckster into a close game with runners on base.

Get ahold of the book The Diamond Appraised by Craig Wright and Tom House. It has a chapter on the knuckler and why it is falling into disuse, complete with a review of the history of the pitch. I'd recommend buying the book if you can at a reasonable price, but Wright wrote the most interesting parts of it IMO, and he's a numbers guy, so depending on your feelings about that, you may want to get it through a library (interlibrary loan is a great thing) and peruse it first.

[KCGHOST]

I can't imagine any reliever making the HoF in Wilhelm was in there. Can you imagine if we said no reliever can get in without being better than a 146 ERA+ over 2250+ IP's?

[four tool]

Wilheim deserves the hall of fame, and if he pitched today, he could be the all-time saves leader.

[digglahhh]

Originally Posted by KCGHOST

I can't imagine any reliever making the HoF in Wilhelm was in there. Can you imagine if we said no reliever can get in without being better than a 146 ERA+ over 2250+ IP's?

Rivera's in the HOF for me, though not as easily for me as for most. I've said many times I could live without any of the modern closers in the HOF, including Mo. Gary Sheffield's (randomly choosing) omission would be a more egregious oversight than a Mariano Rivera omission would be, IMO.

Wilhelm is a horse of different color - by leaps and bounds the best HOF case by a pitcher used primarily out of the pen.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I remember being surprised when Wilhelm was elected to the HOF. He was the first relief pitcher to be so honored, and probably the best one.