Like Mark ? Don't discount Jose

[plask_stirlac]

Originally Posted by CTaka

The door is already open for Big Mac. $14.50 admission gets him in the door. Same price for me, you, Pete Rose, etc.

But he doesn't want to look at the past.

Jose Canseco is not a HOFer, nor is Darryl Strawberry. He had one year as the best player in the bay area, and not by that much over Clark, let alone much of a true separation from all of baseball over much a of a period. In eyeball test, maybe, but 1988 couldn't make him a HOFer though it was great.

If Canseco got in over Clark, then we'd have a very concrete example of a baseball travesty and infatuation with homers. Even against McGwire, to some extent. I mean if the voters are looking for someone who mashed in the late 1980s AND stayed healthy and productive until the late 1990s, Clark did it clean and would be the best choice.

[Lindseynelson]

Ask me I'd take Jose over Mac as a player , but be that as it may, here's a few numbers to assess.Avg season for Conseco is as follows 266- 40 - 121 102 runs 29 doubles.
Mac 263- 50- 122 101 runs 27 doubles.
slg% and ob% virtually even
hell at least Jose admits.
40-40 is Joses

[Fuzzy Bear]

Canseco was a superstar at one time. At one time (1988-90) he was, IMO, the best player in baseball. He had a high peak and contributed to winning teams.

Canseco's book, his revelations about steroids, his post LaRussa A's truncated career, his history of injuries, etc, all muddy his place in history. His case is kind of like Dave Parker's, except that Parker runined a HOF career with a four year time out for debilitating drugs, whereas Canseco, admittedly, used performance enhancing drugs (in a baseball culture where these drugs were part of the backdrop).

I would not support Canseco for the HOF right now. Whether I ever would depends on how the ultimate resolution of how the steroid issue fits into baseball history turns out. If steroids were being used by a small group of cheaters, that's one thing. If their use was widespread, to where one pretty much had to consider going on steroids to hold their position, and this was, in effect, winked at by management, then steroids are a condition of the time. If steroids are a condition of the time, it is one thing to discount HR totals as steroid-driven and adjust for context. It is another to just flat out refuse to honor a whole generation of ballplayers, imperfect as they may be, who may well have been in a position where using steroids is what they had to do to keep their jobs, and that there was unspoken expectation on the part of management that they do so.

[honus14]

Originally Posted by Lindseynelson

Ask me I'd take Jose over Mac as a player , but be that as it may, here's a few numbers to assess.Avg season for Conseco is as follows 266- 40 - 121 102 runs 29 doubles.
Mac 263- 50- 122 101 runs 27 doubles.
slg% and ob% virtually even
hell at least Jose admits.
40-40 is Joses

Player..... OBP SLG OPS+
Canseco .353 .515 131
McGwire .394 .588 163

That ain't what I'd call "virtually even." In fact, that's what I'd call "not close." Per 162 games, Canseco had 20 more hits, 7 more doubles (not sure where your numbers are from, but BR has McGwire with 22 doubles/162), but Marky Mark had 10 more homers and 36 more walks.

Put another way, take 10 homers a year and 30 points of OPS+ away from Canseco, and you get Rob Deer. (Actually, Deer was a little better than that.) Were Deer and Canseco "virtually even"?

[B.White]

Just thought I would pass on this tidbit that I was amazed by.

It is not significant, but rather interesting.

Mark McGwire has fewer career hits than Rick Ferrell.

[abacab]

Originally Posted by B.White

Mark McGwire has fewer career hits than Rick Ferrell.

Interesting but not surprising. If McGwire were elected to the Hall someday, he'd have one of the lowest hit totals of any position player. In fact I can't think of any 20th century Hall of Famer that had fewer hits; there might be one but I don't feel like looking it up. Ferrell, on the other hand, played in an era where nearly everybody was a singles hitter with little power.

Back to the original topic, McGwire had a lot more good years than Canseco. Canseco's '88 was maybe a better year than McGwire's '98; that's really all Canseco has got. Even without the 'roids, he has no case for the Hall.

[Fuzzy Bear]

McGwire was better, in the end, but that was not clear until he was traded to St. Louis, and had a renaissance of sorts.

McGwire looked to be playing out the string in 1993-94, looking to be a DH for the rest of his career, due to injuries. Then he turned it around.

McGwire belongs. How to deal with steroids is not a clear-cut issue in my mind, but McGwire belongs.

Canseco would have belonged if he could have gotten to 500 HRs. He's really a borderline case now, but 500 HRs is now the minimum for sluggers of Canseco's type, it seems.

[KCGHOST]

McGwire was fortunate to finish his career with some monster seasons in St. Louis. Canseco we remember for letting a ball bounce off his head. He became a caricature of a ballplayer. In RCAA McGwire destroys Canseco 665 to 306. In WARP3 they are much closer 109 to 89. No player eligible for the HoF (retired, completed the waiting period, etc) has ever amasses as many as 500 RCAA and not been elected. Clearly McGwire had an HoF career. His low WARP3 score (You would like to see 120+ for an HoFer) must be a function of the virtual loss of his age 24 and 25 seasons as well as the sudden truncation of his career.

If you take out Canseco's wonderful 1988 season he looks like a bunch of other good, but not great players.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by KCGHOST

If you take out Canseco's wonderful 1988 season he looks like a bunch of other good, but not great players.

I think Canseco was the best player in baseball from 1988-90, despite missing part of 1989 with injuries. Barry Bonds took over from there, but Canseco was that great, if only for a short time.

[Lindseynelson]

Jose was awesome for a brief period.
my problem with Mac is his acceptance of the ALL American Boy mantle until he was nailed,
Screw Mac, he had his chance to say "yep I tried things not banned and excelled "
He didn't
He cried like a baby and acted the victim.Jose outperformed his peers and makes no bones about it

[KCGHOST]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

I think Canseco was the best player in baseball from 1988-90, despite missing part of 1989 with injuries. Barry Bonds took over from there, but Canseco was that great, if only for a short time.

I would disagree and say that during that time Henderson, McGriff, Clark, and Boggs were actually better. Granted Canseco missing 80+ games in 1989 factors heavily in that. But if I double his 1989 productivity to kind of even up things he might be the equal of the guys I mentioned.

[Cougar]

One can be forgiving of steroid use, but Canseco's carrying more sin that just that. He was something like the Patient Zero of PED use; he was the guy that showed it could significantly enhance your talent, and who introduced it to the Oakland and Texas clubhouses at least...eventually penetrating all of baseball.

Then, in a jaw-dropping act of narcissistic hypocrisy, Canseco blamed all his failings on being blackballed by the owners, and wrote a tell-all book accusing, well, everyone, of using, and presenting himself as a heroic martyred truth teller.

You can forgive guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro...and still have a ton of contempt for Canseco.

[DoubleX]

If you were to pretend for a moment that steroids never existed and judged these players on their natural abilities, I'd say that while McGwire naturally had more power (and even naturally, may have had some of the best power ever), Canseco had more all-around ability. But, given what they did in their careers, McGwire is pretty far ahead of Canseco.

The interesting thing is that if steroids didn't exist and they played on natural ability and hard work, I wouldn't be surprised if either or both put up Hall of Fame numbers as I believe the steroids use contributed greatly to the health issues that sidelined both so much and ultimately ended their careers.

[Jim Abbott]

Can we please open the hall doors for Big Mac? Pretty please? Oh as for Jose, we will need to relegate him to King Kong status, sorry

[CTaka]

Originally Posted by Jim Abbott

Can we please open the hall doors for Big Mac? Pretty please? Oh as for Jose, we will need to relegate him to King Kong status, sorry

The door is already open for Big Mac. $14.50 admission gets him in the door. Same price for me, you, Pete Rose, etc.

[Lindseynelson]

Originally Posted by CTaka

The door is already open for Big Mac. $14.50 admission gets him in the door. Same price for me, you, Pete Rose, etc.

That's awesome