Larry Walker

[micsmith]

I tried looking in the archive for a thread about Walker but couldn't find one. Do you think Larry Walker is a future hall of famer?

[ElHalo]

I'm all for him, but it's unlikely that any Rockies position player will make the Hall until the Rockies lower their field by 5000 feet.

[J W]

I completely disagree. 2500 feet should do it.

There are two players who we think of as Rockies, who have/will have a HOF shot: Larry Walker, and Todd Helton. Of the two, Helton has been a lifetime Rockie (Rocky?), while Walker has played significant time in Montreal, and is now with the Cardinals.

I think it will depend on what he does with the Cards as to whether or not he will make it to the Hall. I assume they're going to keep him around, ESPECIALLY if they win the World Series this year. His defense was fairly important in today's game 6 win over the Astros, getting to a few balls, and keeping Carlos Beltran to two singles instead of two doubles.

And that's the thing about Walker that I pay more attention to, because of today's bat-happy era. Dude can hit, but dude can also field, and he's got a cannon-arm.

I must say I'm really rooting for him to make it. I've always enjoyed watching him and I feel he hasn't gotten enough attention while being stowed away in Coors Field.

** Here's a stat I would love someone to do for me: What are Walker's home/road splits as a Rockie, and how are they in relation to the average Rockies player?

[dgarza]

His GGs DO give him more cred.

I want to know who the 1st Rockies HOF pitcher will be...

[Cougar]

As a five-tool player, Walker is second among his contemporaries only to Bonds and perhaps Griffey. ARod too, if you want to call him a contemporary. Still, pretty great company.

The knock, very legitimately, is his durability. Walker has had 500 AB twice in 16 seasons. If Walker wasn't constantly hurt, this wouldn't be a debate -- he'd be a first-ballot, 90%+ HOFer.

He probably deserves it already, but in order to allay people's doubts, he really needs one highly productive 140-game season away from Coors Field. Whether he has it in him at age 38 is anyone's guess.

[MudvilleMike]

Guys, even the Rockies play 81 games outside of Coors. Walker is definitely not a HOFer outside of Coors. Helton is.

[Gooch]

The Cardinals' Larry Walker may retire after this season -- is he a Hall of Famer in your opinion?
I think that he's a borderline candidate (and I like the guy). Even though he has won some batting titles and several Gold Gloves, the knock on Walker was that the huge numbers he produced in the 1990s were "inflated" by playing in Coors Field for the Rockies.
For his career, he has a .313 average, just under 400 homers, and around 2100 hits. I think his numbers compare favorably with Hall of Famers like Cepeda and Tony Perez, but Walker played in an era of "augmented" offense.

[STLCards2]

Coors + inflated offensive era + injuries = no HOF for Walker.

[oscargamblesfro]

larry is a solid, likeable, hardworking player, a good all around player. a very good fielder. he was a good hitter before coors too, a smart baserunner.

however, he just isn't quite a hall of famer, largely due to the effects of coors. while walker is easily the best all-around player in the history of the rockies ( helton doesn't have quite as many different skills) he's a little short of true greatness..

in some ways, he reminds me of dwight evans, though evans was an even better fielder.

[digglahhh]

Walker probably falls into that group of players who I categorize as being as "good as you can be without being deserving of the HOF." Bernie Williams is probably around that group too. Larry was quite a player, a hard worker and a stand-up guy. He had a great career and milked Coors for all it was worth.

If it is any consolation to him, he would easily be elected to the Fantasy Baseball HOF on the first ballot, if there was such a thing. His 1997 could have been the fantasy season ever (if you count from when fantasy kind of took off in the early 80's.)

[mattresell]

Walker is going to be one of those borderline guys, much like Martinez from last year. The difference is Walker played great D (7 gold gloves) while Edgar didn't play D at all. I think he'll get in, but it's up to the voters, not me. I wrote a more convincing arguement on my website if you care to read it.

http://unrestrictedview.blogspot.com/

[mattresell]

I think he desreves to be in. The question will be how much voters feel his numbers are related to Coors Field. Even his park adjusted numbers are pretty good. Check out my arguement for walker on my site.

http://unrestrictedview.blogspot.com/

[jalbright]

If he really does retire at the end of 2005, he's a really tough call in my book, and I think I'd come down on the no side.

I don't know his 2005 win shares, but without them, he had 297 career, 82 in his top three years, and 109 in his top five consecutive. Close, but no cigar in my book for an outfielder. Coors Field undoubtedly knocks down his win share numbers. Eighty-two for a top three isn't much at all for a HOF outfielder nor is 109 in the top five consecutive.

Coors Field should have helped him rack up some black ink and gray ink numbers, right? Maybe in black ink, where his 24 points are 78th best all time. But not in gray ink, where his 116 points are 169th all-time. That would be outside the HOF cutoff in that category, and he's not a middle infielder or catcher whose defense should overcome that deficit. He's darned close, but Coors, his lack of durability, and his underwhelming gray ink numbers despite having the advantage of Denver for much of his career are enough for me to say no if he doesn't have another couple of solid to decent years. OTOH, if he makes it, he'd hardly be an embarrassing choice.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

If he really does retire at the end of 2005, he's a really tough call in my book, and I think I'd come down on the no side.

I don't know his 2005 win shares, but without them, he had 297 career, 82 in his top three years, and 109 in his top five consecutive. Close, but no cigar in my book for an outfielder. Coors Field undoubtedly knocks down his win share numbers. Eighty-two for a top three isn't much at all for a HOF outfielder nor is 109 in the top five consecutive.

Coors Field should have helped him rack up some black ink and gray ink numbers, right? Maybe in black ink, where his 24 points are 78th best all time. But not in gray ink, where his 116 points are 169th all-time. That would be outside the HOF cutoff in that category, and he's not a middle infielder or catcher whose defense should overcome that deficit. He's darned close, but Coors, his lack of durability, and his underwhelming gray ink numbers despite having the advantage of Denver for much of his career are enough for me to say no if he doesn't have another couple of solid to decent years. OTOH, if he makes it, he'd hardly be an embarrassing choice.

Jim Albright

[Chisox]

I'll agree to that. Why is it that I'm constantly finding myself stating that same line?

[Chisox]

Originally Posted by micsmith

I tried looking in the archive for a thread about Walker but couldn't find one. Do you think Larry Walker is a future hall of famer?

Why didn't you just add to the one started by Gooch a few days before yours?

Can we get a mod to merge those two?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Threads merged.

[sweaver]

Walker is a classic gray-area guy, with a good career that just wasn't quite long enough. I wouldn't necessarily vote for him, but neither would I stand in his way.

[Chisox]

Originally Posted by Captain Cold Nose

Threads merged.

Thank you.
I wouldn't vote for Walker, either, but you certainly can make a strong case in his favor. Injury free, would we be even having this discussion.

[runningshoes]

Originally Posted by oscargamblesfro

larry is a solid, likeable, hardworking player, a good all around player. a very good fielder. he was a good hitter before coors too, a smart baserunner.

Of course he is. He's Canadian.

[Twinskoop]

I don't buy the idea that Walker is not a HoFer on the basis of where he played most of his home games. His career league-relative, park-adjusted OPS+ was 140. If you search the career leaders in that category on baseball-reference.com, you'll note that there aren't many players with a higher number that are not in the HoF, though many (including recent first-ballot inductees Wade Boggs, Paul Molitor, and Kirby Puckett) HoFers are significantly behind Walker in that category. And it's very difficult to make a case for most of the guys ahead of Walker on that list; the one exception is Dick Allen, who should be in the Hall. Most of them either played in a different era, or didn't play long enough. For others, like Frank Howard, it comes down to defense, and the lack of award recognition like MVP voting.

The argument that Walker's lack of durability keeps him out is a stronger one. But we should keep in mind that while he was definitely fragile, his aggregate numbers are still quite good, and by no means out of place in the Hall. Kirby Puckett provided less quality production in fewer games than Walker, and is in on the first ballot. Defensive position can't make up for all of that discrepancy, especially considering Walker is a 7-time Gold Glove winner. I'm a lifelong Twins fan, and love Kirby, but he should not get more credit for his shortened career than Walker gets for his injury-riddled career.

If Walker is left out, he will be unarguably among the top 4 or 5 hitters not in the Hall. Whereas, if he is enshrined, there will be dozens upon dozens of less productive hitters below him.

Make him wait a few years, but let him in.

[digglahhh]

You know, if Walker was the only guy on those Rockies teams with monster numbers it would be a lot easier to minimize the Coors effect when considering him.

When you see Dante Bichette, Ellis Burks, Vinny Castilla, and Andres Gallaraga (actually an under appreciated player) putting up the gaudy numbers year after year you have to question it.

Helton on the other hand is really more of a shines brighter because of circumstance, as he didn't have two other guys hitting 40+ homers on his team year after year and therefore appears more of a standout.

The park factor is 128!

[Twinskoop]

Originally Posted by digglahhh

You know, if Walker was the only guy on those Rockies teams with monster numbers it would be a lot easier to minimize the Coors effect when considering him.

When you see Dante Bichette, Ellis Burks, Vinny Castilla, and Andres Gallaraga (actually an under appreciated player) putting up the gaudy numbers year after year you have to question it.

Helton on the other hand is really more of a shines brighter because of circumstance, as he didn't have two other guys hitting 40+ homers on his team year after year and therefore appears more of a standout.

The park factor is 128!

A) OPS+ accounts for park factor. And as I said, Dick Allen is really the only eligible guy with a better OPS+ not in the Hall.

B) Regarding those other players - Helton is the only decent analogy, and he may be a HoFer as well, if he puts up 4 or 5 more solid years. Castilla's best OPS+ year in Coors was only 128 (as opposed to Walker's 177 in his MVP year, 1997). Bichette's best was 130 in '95. Galarraga's best was 155 in '98 in Atlanta. (His second best was 149 in '88 in Montreal). Burks' best season was 2000, in SF, with a 166. Though Walker did have his best OPS+ years in Coors, he also posted an OPS+ over 120 in 5 of his 6 non-Coors years, including 151 ('94) and 142 ('92). Paul Molitor's (first ballot HoFer) career OPS+ was 122.

The point is, unless you're paying careful attention, it's very easy to overstate what the park factor of Coors Field does to Walker's HoF case. The legitimate knock on Walker is durability, not production.

[digglahhh]

I was talking perception and not reality. Walker was obviously the best of those players, by a considerable margin. Whether or not he's a HOFer is the issue, and among general consensus here, Walker is in pergatory.

[Twinskoop]

Originally Posted by digglahhh

I was talking perception and not reality. Walker was obviously the best of those players, by a considerable margin. Whether or not he's a HOFer is the issue, and among general consensus here, Walker is in pergatory.

OK. I'm just trying to modify perception to conform to reality.