Mike Marshall's Pitching Motion

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

Hey DDogg...
Been in and out for the holidays so I haven't been posting much. Didn't want you to think that I missed your post.

I have looked into what he is teaching and cannot say with any certainty what he teaches will be successful. Coach45 has more experience with him and has his son training with Marshall's methods so I will defer any first-hand account to him. I have found some things in my quest and will post them tomorrow when I get a chance. Just got in...

DDog, To follow up with the above...

I have spent considerable time speaking with professional sports physical therapists concerning the above, mostly from a youth perspective. What I have in my book is traditional and at best - inadequate. Here's what I have found or now understand.

1. Traditional methods will always damage arms. It's just a matter of time.

2. Pitchers who have a long professional career are either freaks of nature or specialists, examples are Randy Johnson and Tim Wakefield. If 1:16,000 HS players become pros then the number of HS players who pitch into their 40's professionally is probably more like 1:750,000. (The actual could be easily determined, but it would take some time.)

3. Many consider Marshall a little bizarre, I don't... I think he is on to something but has not developed the methods to sell his new approach and his approach needs to be tweaked in order for him to mainstream his method. I cannot speak for C45, but I believe he has taken this approach. I have seen mini-C45, -using that term (mini)very loosly (Via clip) and he is the real thing. I usually go to the Zhills area during spring training and intend to visit Marshall.

4. The pitching methods used by professional pitchers is the result of an evolutionary process that that has maximized the human body's limitations. There have been arguments made that posit the reason we cannot break that 100mph barrier easily is because we have reached the body's limitations using current methods.

5. Every PT I speak with agrees with his overall premise, that current methods will damage arms.

6. Restricted or managed use are currently the best ways to prevent injury followed by training as we now understand it.

7. Most youth coaches have little clue about pitching instruction and tend to abuse their better pitchers forcing organizations like the Little League to regulate pitching use.

8. Marshallites like Kharma have done more to damage MM than they have helped.

If you want to gain a better first hand opinion about MM I would suggest you PM C45.

Hope this helps
Jake

[LousivilleSlugger]

Does anyone have a video clip that they can send me on his pitching motion....I'm curious to see what it looks like.

[MrSurprise]

if no one has one, one of my best friends is going to be attending his 2nd full year camp there this coming september, his dad tapes him all the time and I have faced him many times... I will see if I can get some of his footage.
PeAcE!
kP

[LousivilleSlugger]

Thats great, I would really like to see it. I don't know why he has so many haters out there. Take Care.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Thats great, I would really like to see it. I don't know why he has so many haters out there. Take Care.

Louis,
I have found that while his research and intent are sound his teaching methods are unorthodox and go against what many traditionalist are teaching. He has also had limited success at the college and pro level. I have had his DVD reviewed by physical therapists who liked his work, but are put off by how he teaches certain aspects of pitching. In all fairness to MM I have never had the opportunity to discuss his findings and methods with him personally, although I am committed to going to his facility during my next trip to FLA. What I do agree with is arm damage in youth baseball is growing. Go to ASMI and read there articles and findings.

He offers much of his work for free on line.

[LousivilleSlugger]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

Louis,
I have found that while his research and intent are sound his teaching methods are unorthodox and go against what many traditionalist are teaching. He has also had limited success at the college and pro level. I have had his DVD reviewed by physical therapists who liked his work, but are put off by how he teaches certain aspects of pitching. In all fairness to MM I have never had the opportunity to discuss his findings and methods with him personally, although I am committed to going to his facility during my next trip to FLA. What I do agree with is arm damage in youth baseball is growing. Go to ASMI and read there articles and findings.

He offers much of his work for free on line.

Hi, He has had limited success as a head coach or his pitcher's have had limited success pitching? Its hard to argue with a doctor, so many professionals have arm problems. So many pitcher's have had to have Tommy John Surgery it makes me wonder if the traditional style of pitching is flawed. I've been reading a lot on this subject of the Marshall style vs. Traditional styles and the same argument from the tradtionalist side use "look at the history of all the good pitchers approach". Just because thats the way its been done for the past 100 years does not mean its the absolute best way. Im not trying to start up an argument on this, I'm just trying to see the motion and try to make my own assumptions. As a kid, my parents would not let me pitch competitively because they had heard how it could ruin kids arms. I agree that kids should not pitch until their arm is mature, just my humble opinion. I started getting interested in learning to pitch a couple years ago, I have a strong arm and can throw hard, but I do not want to suffer an injury because as some of know how fragile we get as we start getting older. Take Care, and I am eager to hear your response on this issue.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Hi, He has had limited success as a head coach or his pitcher's have had limited success pitching?

He has not had that many successful pitchers at the college and pro ranks. This does not necessarily mean his methods are flawed.

Its hard to argue with a doctor, so many professionals have arm problems. So many pitcher's have had to have Tommy John Surgery it makes me wonder if the traditional style of pitching is flawed.

It is... The human body is not designed for throwing a ball hard the way we traditionally throw. This is why few can do it well and why we have a hard time breaking the 100mph mark.

I've been reading a lot on this subject of the Marshall style vs. Traditional styles and the same argument from the tradtionalist side use "look at the history of all the good pitchers approach". Just because thats the way its been done for the past 100 years does not mean its the absolute best way. Im not trying to start up an argument on this, I'm just trying to see the motion and try to make my own assumptions. As a kid, my parents would not let me pitch competitively because they had heard how it could ruin kids arms. I agree that kids should not pitch until their arm is mature, just my humble opinion. I started getting interested in learning to pitch a couple years ago, I have a strong arm and can throw hard, but I do not want to suffer an injury because as some of know how fragile we get as we start getting older. Take Care, and I am eager to hear your response on this issue.

It sounds like you are doing the most important thing you can do for yourself - Educating yourself.

The only other advice I'll give you is don't get too tied up in the title Doctor. Credentialling and speciality has to be considered.

[pgibbons]

I'm currently experimenting with Marshall's techniques as well as some other traditional pitching techniques - trying to find the truth for myself.

I've got his DVD. From what I can tell, his pitching motion has evolved over the years. When he pitched well enough to win a Cy Young award back in the early 70's, his motion looked very similar to that of any other pitcher. A casual observer could not see what he was doing that was "different".

His pitching motion now looks radically different from what he, or is student Jeff Sparks, used in the majors. It's now reminicient of a javelin thrower (not exact, but similar).

If someone could tell me if it's possible, (and also how) to rip video clips from a DVD, I would do it and post it so all could see(as long as Marshall is willing to give his permission re. copyright)

Also, I have no stake in the religious war that always follows Marshall postings. I don't know who is right or wrong.

[LousivilleSlugger]

Im not sure how to rip it from a DVD to a clip, and as for copyright laws I dont think you need his permission as you are not trying to make money off it and you have paid for the DVD...its not any different than me buying a Movie DVD and both of us watch the movie....But I understand that its a matter of respect to get permission. Take Care...

[Mark H]

As long as everyone understands he thinks all MLB pitchers do it wrong and understands that he has not proved his theories with successful pitchers, I have no heartburn with anyone making an informed decision. I should add many will argue the second point but statistical and video evidence seems difficult to find. Then there are his thoughts on hitting.

[LousivilleSlugger]

Hi Mark H,

I am neither Pro-Marshall or Pro-Traditional, Im just trying to educate myself. Marshall continues to state that the Traditonal Pitching style is flawed...... how do you explain all the arm and shoulder problems that pitchers have had over the years? Rotator cuff injuries, UCL ruptures, Bone chips in the elbow, and Tommy John surgeries are all a direct result of the traditonal pitching motion. I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance. Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance. I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

[MrSurprise]

Here is what I have found out catching my best friend for the 5 years he has been doing this... I think he has attended 2 6 week camps and 1 full year camp with mike marshall... like he lived at his house and threw everyday... This friend of mine has some nassstyyyyy pitches, too many to name and they all eventually worked good... He also was able to throw 3 straight days more than 100 pitches each day without any hurt other than just like normal muscle soreness, no actual elbow or shoulder trouble. He is able to throw curveball after curveball, in high school we had a time when he threw 9 curves in a row because that was the only pitch he could get for a strike and he had no arm problems... another thing he was telling me is that at the camp there is one guy throwing in the 100 mphs... but the biggest flaws that I have noticed are as follows:
1. Really has trouble controlling any pitch... can't hit spots for anything and I think that is what keeps this from getting in the higher levels because he has so many wild pitches and missed pitches that any disciplined hitter can hold back and get a walk or hold back and rip a miss pitch...
2. At times he has to change release point to get his curve to work. What I mean by this is that for a fast ball he lets his arm come over the top more while his curve he is really big on throwing his elbow out and so any good hitter picks up on that...
3. The last big thing that really is killing him is his fast ball is straight... it's hard but it's one of those fast balls that if you get your barrell on it it's going to be a great hit... and I think this is just his problem because he has like 3 different fastballs or something and 2 of them move like crazy but when he just goes straight fast ball it's a nice straight fast ball that big hitters love...

This is just my opinion and me watching him while catching him... His dad is really into this motion and is all about getting him to pitch this way, and also this kid is a real hard headed kid that if he is going to do something he is going to go all out and won't listen to anyone else that thinks he is doing it wrong... i know the perfect kid for the job haha... so he has had alot of dedication to get to what he has gotten but like my summer league team that had only jr. college and d3 players on it went 1-1 against him and the time he beat us he killed us and shut us out with 12 strikeouts, but when we beat him we scored 8 runs off him in 3 innings of work, when he is on he is on and off he is off... he is only 20 and has another year of camp ahead of him we will see
PeAcE!
kP
I will try to get some film of him...

[LousivilleSlugger]

Thanks for the info, btw, How hard is your friend throwing? 90's?

[Mark H]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Rotator cuff injuries, UCL ruptures, Bone chips in the elbow, and Tommy John surgeries are all a direct result of the traditonal pitching motion.

Or they are an occupational hazard or they are the result of overuse or poor genetics etc.

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance.

Ha! If he could get hitters out and was available Saddam Hussein could get signed. Everyone is out to get me is more often an excuse for personal failure in MANY walks of life.

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance.?

Submarine pitchers have been known to get high level hitters out.

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

Nope and if you have video of a successful high level pitcher using his motion I'd love to see it here on the net for everyone to review.

[MrSurprise]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Thanks for the info, btw, How hard is your friend throwing? 90's?

It depends on the day... he has prolly topped out at 91 or so but I would say average 87 with a 73 mph curve, and then a 82 or so screwball... that is another thing his pitches all have so much difference in velocity that they are easier to pick up and get used to but that I believe is what this next camp is. He is going to work location, pitch choice, and learn like how to set up pitches for other pitches...
PeAcE!
kP

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

Im not sure how to rip it from a DVD to a clip, and as for copyright laws I dont think you need his permission as you are not trying to make money off it and you have paid for the DVD...its not any different than me buying a Movie DVD and both of us watch the movie....But I understand that its a matter of respect to get permission. Take Care...

Louis,
You still need permission as it is not something on the open net. You at the very minimum need to cite the source.
Jake

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by LousivilleSlugger

I just think its too bad that nobody has given a student of his school of thought the chance. Submarine pitchers are given a chance in the Majors, so whats the big deal with giving one of his students a chance. I mean does it really matter how you throw a ball if the end result is the same?

The difference is Submariners have been around since the early days of the game. Marshall's methods are new.

[MrSurprise]

I talked to my friend he said he has his high speed film of him pitching at camp. But the problem is that he has it on video tape... how do I get that off there and on here ? haha ! thanks!
PeAcE!
kP

[LousivilleSlugger]

I don't know much about that Mr.Suprise. I will talk to my brother, he designs web pages and is a digital freak. I'm sure there is a way to do it.

Louisvilleslugger

Originally Posted by MrSurprise

I talked to my friend he said he has his high speed film of him pitching at camp. But the problem is that he has it on video tape... how do I get that off there and on here ? haha ! thanks!
PeAcE!
kP

Some video recorders have a way to play the tape and output to computer via Firewire, etc. Since you said it was "high speed film" I suspect it is a digital tape. Even if not some magnetic tape can stream out and be captured by a PC or MAC.

If the recorder itself doesn't have a way to export or stream you have to use a special device to transfer.

[Hawaii]

Because I had bought a prior MM DVD, I recently received another DVD from MM, unsolicited. It was free, although he did ask for a donation.
The more recent DVD has film of MM throwing, including an overhead view, which is always interesting, no matter who is throwing. If you want the DVD, PM me with your address and I will send it to you (assuming you'll send it back).

[DodgerJon]

Here are some clips of Mike Marshall's video's which show his pitching motion, X-Rays of Youth Baseball Pitchers, and wrist weight drills. I found this on Dr. Marshall's own website from question # 827 of his 2006 Q&A's. Enjoy, and let me know what you think!!

1. www.lishosting.com/main1.asx
2. www.lishosting.com/main2.asx
3. www.lishosting.com/xrays.asx
4. www.lishosting.com/wweight1.asx
5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by DodgerJon

5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

This is similar to a clip I showed several certified physical therapists. They had a very difficult time understanding the benefits and felt the exercise would severly damage the arm. I will have to set some time aside to sit with them to better understand their objections.

[Maxx]

I've scanned some prior posts on Marshall and his techniques, primarily this thread:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...light=marshall

What I'm looking for is video clips of his methods or info from someone who has been to any of camps. I clicked on the video links above, but they do not seem to be working.....

I'm having a very difficult time accepting some of his training methods, specifically the use of 10-12 pound iron balls and 30 pound wrist weights that are used while simulating the pitching motion.

Jake, did you ever look any deeper into Marshall's methods?

[Mark H]

I've been asking for years for a video of anyone throwing 90+ using a non-whipping Marshall arm action. Offered a $100 bucks for the provider's favorite charity. Still nada even though the method reportedly offers superior velocity, movement, control and endurance along with a lack of injuries. The lack of injuries part, I'm willing to believe.