FENCE DRILL does it help?

[wogdoggy]

any thoughts on the fence drill? How can you stick the bat in your belly button stand in the same position make a swing and not hit the fence? What does this drill promote except a linear movement to the ball.Do you want to teach that linear move just to promote keeping your hands inside the ball.Have someone toss a ball to you and see if and how hard you can hit it.Does anyone condone this drill and if so why?

[Ursa Major]

Hey, Woggy. Fair question, even though it resulted in both JBooth and I getting kicked off Nyman's site. And, I was chatting with Steve Englishbey about it just this afternoon. (Forgive the apparent name-dropping; it in fact is the first time I ever talked with the guy.)

After talking with these folks who are much smarter than I, I've concluded that it may have an initial, temporary advantage to some kids to show them they need to keep their hands back as they rotate. Maybe just have the coaches do it to show that it can be done; there's a bit of "shock and awe" value to it.

The risk is that, absent a whole lot of focus, players will "cheat" to avoid clanging their bat against the fence by simply bring their hands forward during the swing or leaning away from the fence. So, I would say that it's okay for kids who disconnect their arms from their torso too soon, but you definitely should stop it as soon as you see this "cheating" commence, maybe even ceasing its use after just the first practice in which it's used if necessary. Many people feel any potential advantages are outweighed by the risk and should never be used. I'm not sure what alternative drills should be used instead.

[wogdoggy]

I cant even get close to doing this drill.lol.Now if I step back a good foot or two I have a shot. are you and booth proponents of the drill?

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by wogdoggy

I cant even get close to doing this drill.lol.Now if I step back a good foot or two I have a shot. are you and booth proponents of the drill?

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

You MUST keep your hands at your shoulder, turn JUST your shoulders, leaving the hands and bat alone as you turn. The bathead and your hands do NOT move from their original RELATIVE position to the shoulder until you have rotated far enough that your chest is facing the pitcher. THEN, you move your hands AROUND your body toward your front shoulder.

As Ursa said, it's not a good drill if they don't understand what it is trying to accomplish, and they do it incorrectly. Also, you shouldn't stand so close that you make the swing totally artificial, but you shouldn't stand so far away that you can swing without emphasizing keeping your hands close to the body and moving them around the body with the shoulder rotation.

The main purpose of the drill is to learn that the bathead is the LAST thing to move, and that you have to keep your hands back at the shoulder and close to the body as you rotate.

Sounds like you just don't know how to do it.

Here's me doing it;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/fencedrill.mpg

[wogdoggy]

nice job john.I couldnt do that.

[hiddengem]

Originally Posted by wogdoggy

nice job john.I couldnt do that.

Yes you could, with a little guidance.

[MSandman]

Originally Posted by jbooth

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso.

[bbjunkie]

Great job. Now, forgive my ignorance, but do you consider your swing rotational or linear?

[wogdoggy]

disconnection, i knew i'd hear that.

[MSandman]

Originally Posted by wogdoggy

disconnection, i knew i'd hear that.

And???

BTW, does anyone see the image I posted right here w/in the thread? I only see a hyperlink to the JPG. Thanks.

[wogdoggy]

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?

[hiddengem]

Originally Posted by MSandman

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso.

Those pictures have absolutely no compaison to JBooth pictures. Jim is doing the drill to prove a point, as to how the fence drill works. Both Troy and Nomar are about 6-10inches further off the plate than Jim is, and the balls they are hitting are out over the plate. If those pitches they were hitting were in on the inside corner and up a few inches, you would see differen't positions in both of them.

[MSandman]

wog,

I'm not arguing either, please forgive me if my post implies an argumentative tone. It's tough not to online... whenever one present's a counterpoint, even w/ NO intended malicious tone, the fact that it's questioning or disagreeing can come across that way.

I have the same questions/doubts you do about usefulness of the drill.

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by MSandman

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso.

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL is giving me the feeling of keeping the hands in and keeping the bathead back, and using the shoulders to move the bat. It's training a feeling to have when I make a game swing at a moving ball. You just don't seem to get it.

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by bbjunkie

Great job. Now, forgive my ignorance, but do you consider your swing rotational or linear?

It's rotational.

[hiddengem]

Originally Posted by wogdoggy

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?

Yea its used on occasions. The drill is designed to help you understand that the barrell of the bat, doesn't cast off the shoulder, but lags while the body is rotating. The bat is brought to the ball by the rotation of the shoulders and hips, not by the arms (casting).

If Jim were to retake this video and stand off the same plate 6-10inches my guess is that you would see a swing very similar to the ones you see with Troy and Nomar. Its a drill guys.

[MSandman]

Originally Posted by jbooth

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL is giving me the feeling of keeping the hands in and keeping the bathead back, and using the shoulders to move the bat. It's training a feeling to have when I make a game swing at a moving ball. You just don't seem to get it.

No Jim, I DO get it. But in my mind, drills are meant as a way to guide a player through the movements we'd want them to execute in their game swing, but w/o the challenge of tracking a live pitch. I just don't see that happening here.

Now take a deep breath and relax.

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by hiddengem

Those pictures have absolutely no compaison to JBooth pictures. Jim is doing the drill to prove a point, as to how the fence drill works. Both Troy and Nomar are about 6-10inches further off the plate than Jim is, and the balls they are hitting are out over the plate. If those pitches they were hitting were in on the inside corner and up a few inches, you would see differen't positions in both of them.

That's right. In a game swing at a pitch middle/out my hands and back elbow would take a slightly different path. What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body. It is designed to keep the hands in by practicing hitting a simulated inside pitch. If you can correctly swing and hit an inside pitch, it's pretty easy to adjust to the outside one. If you disconnect away and reach out at outside pitches, you will never get the inside pitch. The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders. It isn't designed to practice a game swing. It's exagerrating the movement so you will learn it. Exagerrating the movement makes my swing a little different from my game swing, but as YOU intelligently noted; I was proving that you could swing at normal speed without doing extremely strange movements and not hit the fence.

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by MSandman

But in my mind, drills are meant as a way to guide a player through the movements we'd want them to execute in their game swing, but w/o the challenge of tracking a live pitch.

That's true, but sometimes just going through the "perfect" motion without a live pitch, isn't enough. It doesn't "do the trick." Sometimes, you have to exagerrate the movement so the brain wakes up to the feeling, then you adjust back to the movement that you actually want.

The drill is trying to fix a problem, not drill a perfect swing. If you have a perfect swing you don't need the dang drill, you just need to practice your swing to keep it perfect.

If all you had to do was demonstrate a perfect swing, and have the student do that over and over, you wouldn't need ANY drills whatsoever. EVER. Why do people invent drills? It's to correct a problem because they aren't doing what they should. If they can't do what they should, then you have to do something to fix it. The fence drill gives instant biofeedback on an incorrect swing and overemphasizes the desired movement, so that you can adjust to the correct movement.

Sorry to overreact.

[hiddengem]

Originally Posted by MSandman

But what's the point in standing so close to the fence that it "distorts" your swing into something like that? If we're so sure that "if Jim were to stand further back" that his swing would look like those, then WHY bother standing so close?

Because as Jim said, its designed to overemphasize how to get to a very tough pitch. If you understand how to get to THAT pitch it will help you understand how to get to the other easier pitches. Again, if you already have a pefect swing and understand how to get to a pitch up and in, then by all means don't do the drill, just hit.

And by the way..this pitch you are showing us, is NOT the same pitch Jim is getting to. Jr's ball is probably middle to middle/in. Jim's is up and in, probably on the black if not off the plate a bit.

[wogdoggy]

i'm not a nyman troll.thank you anyway.lol

[MSandman]

Originally Posted by jbooth

That's right. In a game swing at a pitch middle/out my hands and back elbow would take a slightly different path. What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body. It is designed to keep the hands in by practicing hitting a simulated inside pitch. If you can correctly swing and hit an inside pitch, it's pretty easy to adjust to the outside one. If you disconnect away and reach out at outside pitches, you will never get the inside pitch. The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders. It isn't designed to practice a game swing. It's exagerrating the movement so you will learn it. Exagerrating the movement makes my swing a little different from my game swing, but as YOU intelligently noted; I was proving that you could swing at normal speed without doing extremely strange movements and not hit the fence.

Now Jim... why the hell must you start being rude like that? Name-calling has no place other than trying to pump your own ego, so get over yourself and stick to the topic, and leave your commentary to yourself please. Geez. Is this board moderated?

And fwiw, I'm NOT a Nyman disciple, tho I do agree w/ much of his concepts (but certainly not his style).

BTW, IMO, you ARE displaying "extremely strange movements".

Oh, and here's another one... where the hitter IS pulling in to reach an inside pitch. His lead arm is still MUCH closer to his torso and his rear forearm is leaning out a bit towards the plate (not across to the other side of his body).



Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

[hiddengem]

Originally Posted by MSandman

Now Jim... why the hell must you start being rude like that? Name-calling has no place other than trying to pump your own ego, so get over yourself and stick to the topic, and leave your commentary to yourself please. Geez. Is this board moderated?

And fwiw, I'm NOT a Nyman disciple, tho I do agree w/ much of his concepts (but certainly not his style).

BTW, IMO, you ARE displaying "extremely strange movements".

Oh, and here's another one... where the hitter IS pulling in to reach an inside pitch. His lead arm is still MUCH closer to his torso and his rear forearm is leaning out a bit towards the plate (not across to the other side of his body).



Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

I've also seen this clip, and this ball is out over the plate and Frank is hitting it to center/right center.

[MSandman]

Originally Posted by hiddengem

I've also seen this clip, and this ball is out over the plate and Frank is hitting it to center/right center.

"His 400th career home run flew majestically toward left-center field ..."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/ne..._cws&fext=.jsp

[jbooth]

Originally Posted by MSandman

Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

No, it's a waste of my time. And, I already said I'm sorry for overreacting, but I'll repeat it here.