The rivalry of all rivalries: Chicago Cubs/StL Cardinals

[Solair Wright]

This thread is based on the long rivalry between the two teams, and make sure not to troll or flame people/fans of that team:


Last WS: 1982

VS.


Last WS: 1908

Astros, Royals, White Sox, Brewers fans are welcome to post in this heated rivalry between the Cubs and Cardinals. (they're rivals with both teams)

Oh, this isn't a knock off between the Giants/Dodgers rivalry. This rivalry has been heating up since 1998, and it still has.

Posting begins...now

[E.Banks#14]

Originally Posted by Solair Wright

Oh, this isn't a knock off between the Giants/Dodgers rivalry. This rivalry has been heating up since 1998, and it still has.

I don't remember it well enough to be sure, but in the homerun race of 1998 between McGwire and Sosa, weren't the two teams getting along fairly well?

It seems as though the rivalry been a war between Dusty and LaRussa for the last three years. Anyone else think that?

[Mattingly]

Originally Posted by E.Banks#14

I don't remember it well enough to be sure, but in the homerun race of 1998 between McGwire and Sosa, weren't the two teams getting along fairly well?

It seems as though the rivalry been a war between Dusty and LaRussa for the last three years. Anyone else think that?

I thought that in 1998, Big Mac and Sosa were great for the sport, since they were great to each other, and Mark's somewhat shy demeanor, as well as his honest "everyman" image was complemented by Sammy's outward "two-fingered kiss and a blow" thing. Didn't they do some McDonald's commercial together, or was that just Sammy?

I'm not too sure how their teammates treated one another during that time. Can anyone fill me in? I do know that the Maris Family was involved and paid respectful visits to both of them when they hit #62 that season, so it seemed like one big lovefest to me.

As I've said a gazillion times, Sammy was also given his own personal parade up NYC's Canyon of Heroes, which is lower Manhattan on Broadway, just west of Wall St and the NY Stock Exchange, then visited the local Dominical community in upper Manhattan's Washington Heights (just above Harlem), where Manny Ramirez grew up and went to school.

As to the rivalry itself, it seemed to have rekindled somewhat with the Derrek Lee/Albert Pujols thing re their very similar stats. Who are other players who've had similar numbers to one another? Much like how people have endlessly debated Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays.

Busch Stadium, Wrigley Field, Jack Buck, Harry Caray are just a few things off the top of my head. Any tidbits someone can name between Bob Gibson and Ernie "Mr Cub" Banks? Let's hear it, folks!

[BeatEmBucs]

Being that we're division rivals with these teams (and have been since 69...sorry for bringing that up Cub fans) I might as well put my 2 cents in. There has definitely been some intensity in our recent matchups with the Cards, especially since it appeared our previous Manager and LaRussa seemed to hate each other's guts. I don't think Jim Tracy will keep that vendetta, but hopefully the one-sidedness of our matchups will subside in the years ahead. But it's incredible how much success the Cards have had at our expense over the years.

As for the Cubs, while it's close, they bring more fans to PNC Park than any other team. All the games against the Cubs this year had 25,000 fans or better, and 10,000 were wearing Cub colors. I wonder how much of that is because of the Tribune hype machine? We've had some success against the Cubs, they haven't dominated us like the Cards have, even though they have beaten us more than we've beaten them. Of course I'd love to see them get to the Century mark (and beyond) between world championships.

Personally I'd prefer a realignment that would make the Phillies,Mets, and Nats our primary rivals, but it is what it is, and I'm looking forward to our matchups in the year ahead.

[Brannu]

The Chicago/St. Louis rivalry is a classic matchup everytime. I think that it got to a fairly friendly level in the 90's as both teams were not as competitive as they could have been ... but, the intensity level has risen over the past few years as both teams have developed into strong contenders (The Cards more so than The Cubs, although they have had their chances). I think one only needs to ask Carlos Zambrano how much he likes The Cardinals to know where this rivalry has gotten too.

Unfortunately, though ... I think that The Cardinals are way too nice of a team to let this rivalry get to a point where the Yankees/Red Sox got in 2004. Sometimes I wish they would loosen that nice guy mentality and show a little attitude. Jim Edmonds getting hit twice by Carlos Zambrano, in the same game, gives evidence to this. Carlos is a big guy ... but, dang! Twice in one game?!?!?

Anyway ... I'm glad that someone started this thread ... we'll see where it goes.

[Mattingly]

Originally Posted by BeatEmBucs

Personally I'd prefer a realignment that would make the Phillies,Mets, and Nats our primary rivals, but it is what it is, and I'm looking forward to our matchups in the year ahead.

Since the Phillies are already in the NL East, isn't there a rule or unwritten rule that two teams from the same state can't both play in the same division? Otherwise, geographically, I can't see Pittsburgh in the NL Central Division.

[Solair Wright]

Originally Posted by BeatEmBucs

Being that we're division rivals with these teams (and have been since 69...sorry for bringing that up Cub fans) I might as well put my 2 cents in. There has definitely been some intensity in our recent matchups with the Cards, especially since it appeared our previous Manager and LaRussa seemed to hate each other's guts. I don't think Jim Tracy will keep that vendetta, but hopefully the one-sidedness of our matchups will subside in the years ahead. But it's incredible how much success the Cards have had at our expense over the years.

One problem the Bucs had is poor pitching, and that was no exception last year. With the exception of Zach Duke, many starters finished below .500, and I have Lloyd McClendon to blame. He drove a tough contender and good pitching into the ground when he was managing. At least with Tracy around, that will change. I'd expect with Casey and a healthier team, the Bucs should have a winning season.

The one reason why the Cardinals thrived against Pittsburgh is that the starting pitchers were easy pickings because of the Cardinals' offense. This upcoming season should be a different story for the Pirates.

[BeatEmBucs]

Originally Posted by Mattingly

Since the Phillies are already in the NL East, isn't there a rule or unwritten rule that two teams from the same state can't both play in the same division? Otherwise, geographically, I can't see Pittsburgh in the NL Central Division.

Not neccessarily. The Phillies and Bucs were division rivals from 69-93. And during the 70's it was a spirited rivalry where both teams went at it with the same intensity of Cards-Cubs. Pennsylvania was home of the Eastern Division champions 9 times in the 70's. It's when baseball expanded to 3 divisions the Bucs became the odd-team out, and became the easternmost team in the Central Division. Atlanta and Florida stick out like a sore thumb in the NL East, but since Atlanta played in the NL West for so many years they finally got put in the correct geographical division and the Bucs got relegated to the Central. IMHO when Milwaukee switched leagues in 98, they should've moved the Bucs to the East and make the East the 6 team division instead of the Central.

[Evangelion]

One problem the Bucs had is poor pitching, and that was no exception last year. With the exception of Zach Duke, many starters finished below .500, and I have Lloyd McClendon to blame. He drove a tough contender and good pitching into the ground when he was managing. At least with Tracy around, that will change. I'd expect with Casey and a healthier team, the Bucs should have a winning season.

Well, Oliver Perez finished with 7-5 record last season for the Pirates, but had a terrible ERA of 5.85 last season. K per inning ratio was down from 2004, where he was a beast with an ERA of 2.98 and 239 K. Though, I believe his performance was down due to injuries, I believe? I'm not sure since I'm not a strong follower of the Pirates myself.

If Oliver Perez and Zack Duke have stellar seasons, they can try for a winning season. I say try, because they're really in a tough division with the stellar pitching of the Astro's, the ever so tough Cardinals, the improved Cubs and let's not forget the Brew Crew young talent and surge and this team on the move up. The Pirates really need to play hard to finish about any of those five teams in my mind. At the very least, I can say they're better than the de-funk Reds at this point. I'm a bit puzzled on which direction the Reds are moving at this point and right now, it seem they're heading for the gutter of NL Central Division.

Cubs and Cardinals rivalry has been brought up more recently, but since 03, I've kinda just pay attention to Astro's and Cardinals rivalry since both teams have meet in NLCS the past two years, both taking one a piece, but of course neither taking the WS championship home. The Cubs and Cardinals rivalry has a chance to mean something this year with the Cubs trying to throw themselves back into this division, which I think they can if Prior can avoid injuries and if Wood can, too. I would love to see the Cubs and Cardinals battle it out in meaningful games, but it's lost it luster lately due to Astro's and Cardinals rivalry taking more imporantance the last two seasons.

[Mattingly]

Originally Posted by BeatEmBucs

Not neccessarily. The Phillies and Bucs were division rivals from 69-93. And during the 70's it was a spirited rivalry where both teams went at it with the same intensity of Cards-Cubs. Pennsylvania was home of the Eastern Division champions 9 times in the 70's. It's when baseball expanded to 3 divisions the Bucs became the odd-team out, and became the easternmost team in the Central Division. Atlanta and Florida stick out like a sore thumb in the NL East, but since Atlanta played in the NL West for so many years they finally got put in the correct geographical division and the Bucs got relegated to the Central. IMHO when Milwaukee switched leagues in 98, they should've moved the Bucs to the East and make the East the 6 team division instead of the Central.

Thanks for that. Very useful info, and greatly appreciated.

[otis89]

Originally Posted by Mattingly

Since the Phillies are already in the NL East, isn't there a rule or unwritten rule that two teams from the same state can't both play in the same division? Otherwise, geographically, I can't see Pittsburgh in the NL Central Division.

One word: California

[Mattingly]

Originally Posted by otis89

One word: California

You've surely got me on that one. I feel silly asking the question now.

Giants, Padres and Dodgers all in the NL West; Oakland and Anaheim in the AL West.

[letsgocubbies]

The area in which I live shows a lot of Cardinals/Cubs rivarly, about 70 percent of the people around here are Cards fans and then the rest of us are Cub fans. Yeah, I get a bit of grief for being a Cubs fan but it doesnt gtr out of hand. There is just of anti-cub jokes and stuff.

[otis89]

Originally Posted by letsgocubbies

The area in which I live shows a lot of Cardinals/Cubs rivarly, about 70 percent of the people around here are Cards fans and then the rest of us are Cub fans. Yeah, I get a bit of grief for being a Cubs fan but it doesnt gtr out of hand. There is just of anti-cub jokes and stuff.

Tell me about it. I get sick of all the idiotic Cardinals fans. I swear, this part of Illinois has to have the lowest average IQ among Cardinals fans. I'm not saying all Cards fans are dumb, but the ones around here sure are.

[Brannu]

Originally Posted by otis89

Tell me about it. I get sick of all the idiotic Cardinals fans. I swear, this part of Illinois has to have the lowest average IQ among Cardinals fans. I'm not saying all Cards fans are dumb, but the ones around here sure are.

Well ... the midwest isn't known for many of it's intellectuals in the first place, however ... Cards fans have been known to be some of the smartest in baseball. In the case of calling fans dumb ... a tough case can be made for those fans that continually obsess over a team with an incredible losing traditon. But, I wouldn't be the one to point that out.

[Solair Wright]

Originally Posted by otis89

Tell me about it. I get sick of all the idiotic Cardinals fans. I swear, this part of Illinois has to have the lowest average IQ among Cardinals fans. I'm not saying all Cards fans are dumb, but the ones around here sure are.

I, as a Cardinals fan, must have seen some pretty stupid Cards fans, one that scream for no reason, and get drunk at just about every home game (even at daytime!) I went to (4). Why do they do that? I do not know.

Now, Cubs and Cards: if you (Cubs) had a healthy A-Ram, Prior, Wood, and have Eyre set up for Dempster, and you go up against a healthy St. Louis team with Juan Encarnicion, a healthy Rolen and Pujols, against Pierre, Derrek Lee and Jacque Jones...who would you think would be successful?

[Mattingly]

The only time I've ever seen Cardinal fans is when they'd traveled far away from Busch, and that was around 2003, when the Yanks hosted their team. First time I've ever seen a whole slew of fans wearing HoF jerseys and other jerseys of retired players. Gibson, Slaughter, McGwire and many others. This contrasted greatly from other fans, most of whom wore jerseys and t-shirts only of active players.

Now then, I've only seen the Cubs at Yankee Stadium in 2005, which was their only visit there since the 1932 WS, I believe. What do their fans wear at home and on the road? Same question for Cards fans.

[Slightly Sarcastic]

i have a deep-seeded hatred for all things Cardinal. 3 of my best friends, guys ive known 30+ years, are Cardinal fans. its part of growing up in Southern/Central Illinois, where its never more than a 60/40 split in either direction for miles and miles and miles. you can always find a rival fan to get into a good debate with, or if things escalate, a full on fist fight.

that usually doesnt happen though, as Cardinal fans in general are quick to back down from confrontation. you can see it for yourself if you ever go to a game there and start making a bunch of noise for your team. they will actually let themselves get out-cheered in their own stadium. i will acknowledge that the number of Cubs fans at Busch for a Cubs/Cards game greatly outnumbers the Reds/Brewers/whoever fans when those teams are in town. (and sometimes the Cubs fans outnumber the Cards fans, then it really gets noisy) but the fans at Busch are still very passive as a whole in their cheering.


ive seen well over 100 Cubs/Cards games in Wrigley and Busch combined. some of those ive left with a smile on my face, and some i have not. ive gone to Busch to see the Cards play many teams other than the Cubs, and even on those days, i wouldnt set foot in there without being decked out in my Cub gear.




head to head record from 1901 to 2005 : Cubs lead - 1045 up, 1007 down



best Cubs/Cards memory - June 23rd, 1984, The Sandberg Game

we were running late due to a late start, listening to Trout getting blown up on the way. we decided it was already over and were ready to abort, but we didnt. to this day, we all still claim credit for being the voice of reason that insisted we couldnt bail out, that our presence was needed.


and so, that is how i came to be responsible for the Sandberg Game.....yeah, thats it.

[otis89]

Originally Posted by Slightly Sarcastic

and so, that is how i came to be responsible for the Sandberg Game.....yeah, thats it.

And I'm the pope.

[Solair Wright]

All Cubs second basemen today (prior to 1998, after he retired) have nothing on Ryno, because he is far better than what you expect. As a leadoff guy, let's compare his best year, 1990 compared to Todd Walker:

G: 155  AB: 615  R:116 	H:188  2B:30  3B:3  HR:40  RBI:100  TB:344  BB:50  SO:84  SB:25  CS:7  OBP:.354  SLG:.559  BA:.306  E:8  DP: 81

Seems like you beat us in modern second basemen (prior to 1970s), but we'll see about this.

[otis89]

What's up with this? No replies since January? The Cubs are going for the sweep tomorrow!

[otis89]

SWEEP

Where are the rest of the Cubs/Cards fans?

[Michael H.]

Sweep, baby! I will admit that victories over the Cards are a little bit sweeter than any other team, except perhaps for the Cubbies' cross-town rivals, of course.

[Cubsfan97]

Thatw as an awesome series. I can proudly say I watched all 3 games. I can't wait to sweep them again in our next series.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This may be a dumb question but why is Cubs/Cardinals a rivalry? The Cards are one of the most successful National league clubs and the Cubs are one of the least successful, historically. It's not like they have had many battles for division titles or NL pennants. I don't get it.