1951 and 2001: Which is worse?

[LouGehrig]

The depth of despair of Dodgers fans for 1951 is understandable, but it leads to a question of values.

The Dodgers lost the PENNANT. The Giants won the pennant but lost the WORLD SERIES. As a Yankees fan, I am more familar with WINNING and LOSING World Series than fans of any other team.

My opinion is that the Giants were the bigger losers. I say that after living through the 1960 and 2001 World Series. It is acknowledged that to get a chance to win, there must be the chance the to lose. Is the loser of the World Series the ultimate loser of a particular season?

Who were the bigger losers in 1951, the Dodgers or the Giants?

There’s really only one answer…at least on THIS Forum!

Nothing the Giants suffered in their Series loss could begin to equal the despair felt by the Dodgers and their fans.

We lost the pennant after having had a huge lead. We lost it in the 9th inning of the final playoff game.

Worst of all, we lost it to THE GIANTS!

It doesn’t get any worse than that.

[LouGehrig]

Would it have been better to beat the Giants but then lose to the Yankees? Do (did) most Dodgers fans want to beat the Giants more than they wanted to beat the Yankees?

[donzblock]

It would have been better to beat the Giants because the Dodgers of 1951 would not have lost the Series.

The short answer to your question can be found in the fact that that one loss to the Giants overshadows all the Series losses to the Yankees.

On the positive side, NOTHING was sweeter to a Dodgers fan than beating the Giants.

It goes back to at least 1934, when Bill Terry asked, "Brooklyn? Are they still in the league?" and the Dodgers answered by knocking the Giants out of the pennant on the last weekend of the season.

The hatred felt by the two teams (and their fans) intensified when Durocher became the Giants manager in '48.

The NEXT best feeling was beating the Yankees.

[LouGehrig]

Stating that the Dodgers would have beaten the 1951 is illogical since the Yankees beat the team that beat the Dodgers. But that is the fascination of baseball and life. It could have happened.

While I think the Yankees would have beaten the Dodgers, there are no guarantees. The Dodgers might have won, but they might have lost. All that matters is that the Yankees won.

[donzblock]

Mr. Gehrig, you are sounding like Spock. All that matters is not that the Yankees won: it is that the Dodgers lost!

[jaykay]

Dear Mr. Gehrig:

Surely we can agree that your citing the years 1960 and 2001 indicates that much depends on HOW your team loses. After all, those were not the only years in which the Yankees finished second in the World Series.

Perhaps no Yankees fan could ever identify with the wormwood of 1951, but I guarantee that your friendly rivals in Boston can. It's all a matter of perspective. So allow me to conclude this brief missive by calling your attention to the nectar sipped by Dodgers fans in 1955 when the Bums beat the Giants AND the Yankees. How about that?

[researcher]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-02 AT 10:41 PM (EST)]1934: After winning the first gm of a Dbl Header in Boston 8-0 on 9/23
......the Giants were 3 1/2 games ahead of St.Louis.

......NY went on to lose their last 5 games, while the Cards went 6-0.
......to finish 2 games ahead of NY.

......On sat 9/29 Van Mungo (17-18) beat Parmelee (10-5)5-1; then on
......sun 9/30 21 y/o Johnny Babich (7-11)and Ray Benge(13-12) teamed
......up to beat Freddie Fitzsimmons (18-13) 8-5.

[LouGehrig]

That is great. Fantastic. I love it. You are right. I concede. Completely.

[LouGehrig]

You are right.

[Paulmcall1]

The defeat of fifty years ago has had time to marinate in the
juices of time.
It has turned into a fine whine.
Recent defeats have not had enough time to fester and cause
a lifetime of pain.

[LouGehrig]

Losing does not have to marinate
For the loss to really grate.

To come so close and then to fail
Makes the 26 other victories
A little stale.

[Berky34]

I was a Yankee fan growing up in a Brooklyn neighborhood and I can say without fear of any contradiction that October 2, 1951 was The Penultimate Day of Infamy indelibly etched into the psyches of every Dodger fan from that era. By comparison, all other Dodger heartbreaks--from Mickey Owen to Tommy Henrich to Don Larsen--diminish in significance.

[donzblock]

If October 2, 1951, was the penultimate day of infamy for Dodger fans, what was the antepenultimate, and what was the Ultimate? October 2, 1951, to me, was The Ultimate Day of Infamy.

[The Real McCoy]

What is it about July that turns it into Hoople Month? Next in line is a "Yankee fan growing up in Brooklyn" (shades of Guiliani) who might share with us, whether, like the former Mayor, his "penultimate" dream was to become a Yankee mascot.

Its hard to describe how heartwarming it is to hear from Yankee fans as they describe "without fear of contradiction" what Dodger fans are really feeling. I'm going out on a limb here, but the only thing missing from this message was some cute little "mega ditto" reference. Unless I miss my guess, we may have heard from the "penultimate" Limbaugh listener. The tortured syntax fits.

[Berky34]

Until such time as you unilaterally repeal the First Amendment, I'll listen to whoever I please, be it Limbaugh or anyone else.

The fact is that I've known more Dodger fans than you have friends who undoubtedly have their annual convention in an Ocean Parkway phone booth.

I also once knew a Yankee fan who became a Dodger fan and he raised the average IQ in both fan groups.

[The Real McCoy]

Of course you can listen to "whoever I please" and let me guess could that "anyone else" be anyone but Sean Hannity. Now there's a 7/8 quinella.

So you know that phone booth on Ocean Parkway? Well, you gotta admit it is a little bit larger than average.

Give some thought to updating your material; that IQ line was old when we tossed Nixon out.

Thanks for the quick response.

Gentlemen, gentlemen...let's keep our eye on the linguistic ball here.

I'll grant that in some Brooklyn neighborhoods, "penultimate" might have been used to describe the lifetime sentences handed out to the local criminals, but in polite society, it means "NEXT to last."

Thus, on October 2, 1951 -- the "penultimate" game of the season -- we were on the long end of Labine's 10-0 shutout of the Giants.

The ULTIMATE "day of infamy" was October 3, 1951.

[LouGehrig]

Are you still a Yankees fan? If you had advance information last year, would you have rather lost to Oakland or Seattle rather than get to the WS and lose? I would.

[donzblock]

Golly, gee, Berky 34, you're really a scary fellow. Did all of your Dodger friends teach you how to write a sentence? And which one of your Yankee friends taught you the meaning of "penultimate"?

[ed reulbach]

"Lou"--buck up, old chap! As a Lou Gehrig fan from way back, I can't imagine the real Lou Gehrig ever saying something like that. I also think most Oakland or Seattle fans would rather have had their team win the pennant than not. (This is not the place to ask them, however, so I won't.)

If you still feel this badly about your team not winning its 27th World Championship (and fourth straight), perhaps you should seek out (or found) a 2001 Yankee fans' support group in your area, where you might expect to get more sympathy than in a Brooklyn Dodgers forum. Let me know how it works out.--"ed"

[LouGehrig]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-02 AT 10:44 PM (EDT)]Thank you for your suggestions, but I am still trying to recover from 1960. I recognize that I am in the minority, but that is my feeling. As Frank sang, "All, or nothing at all."

It was interesting to hear Bob Gibson, whom we saw at an autograph show during the winter, disagree completely with me. He said the level of competition is so great, just getting to the WS is a great accomplishment.


I do not read and write on this forum for sympathy. Yankees fans do not need sympathy, do not want sympathy, and do not give sympathy.

It is just that this is one of the best, if not best forums of all and the participants are quite expert.

We are not dealing with amateurs.

[Bum Iz]

Go Bums!!!

Yankees fans do not sympathy???????????
These Yankee fans, is English their primary language?

[ed reulbach]

> Yankees fans do not . . . want sympathy, and do not give
>sympathy.

Oh come on now, you're not all like that! This is just playing into the old stereotype of the stone-hearted Yankees fan. I'm tempted to do that sometimes myself, but I know better. My best friend from college is a Yankees fan, and he is one of the most sympathetic guys I know.

>It is just that this is one of the best, if not best forums
>of all and the participants are quite expert.

I'm sure we all appreciate (and agree with) that, but let me ask you honestly: If two (or three or four or five or . . .) Yankees fans start commiserating with each other over Yankees losses here, do you really think that would be the best thing for this *Brooklyn* forum that you so obviously appreciate and, in my own opinion, have contributed to positively? This may be overreacting, but we've had an above-average share of off-topic contributions lately and I'd just like to discourage this before it reaches critical mass.

We have also had more than our share of heated discussion here lately, and I'm afraid I might be getting more heated here myself than I'd like. While in my "ed" persona I do try to assume a mildness of temperament befitting someone who has been resting in a cool tomb for forty-one years . . . so all I can say is, I'm sure your preference for losing the pennant over losing the W.S. is entirely comprehensible for a person with your unique perspective and life experiences. How refreshing to hear another point of view from that of Bob Gibson, as intense a competitor as ever lived, and certainly no amateur--but if we all felt the same about these things, what a dreadfully dull world it would be. If you would prefer (and I am not saying you would) that the '01 Yanks had gone 70-90 and gotten their bubble-bursting out of the way . . . follow your bliss, man.

"ed" :-)