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#1
07-22-2005, 01:43 PM
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THE pitching thread
This is in response to WonderMonkey's "In another thread maybe we can have a friendly debate on a few of the pitching points you have made. With some of the points there is just no clear answer and boils down to opinion and others I just don't agree with."
So... if anyone has any pitching questions as to "Does long toss really help a pitcher?" or "Should a pitcher throw weighted balls?" just post them on here and I'll answer them, and I'm sure other people will put their insight in as well! Which will be very fun indeed 
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#2
07-23-2005, 11:37 AM
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Long Toss = Helps, especially in the pre-season and occasionally during the season.
Weighted balls, and even more generically overloading OR undloading = I don't see the benefit and the negatives outweigh them anyway. Pushing off the rubber = Even some who think then do it don't and some that think they don't, do. I think this one is individual to the pitcher.
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#3
07-23-2005, 02:10 PM
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Weighted balls have been around for over 30 years. If they honestly worked then everyone in the Majors would be using them. They aren't, and for good reason. If all of these competing activities worked...long toss, weighted balls, weight training or endless drills then baseball pitching would have improved markedly over the past decade or so in performance and reducing the risk of injuries. I see no evidence that performance is going up and injuries are going down. All you have to do is ask yourself if you are seeing more successful pitchers being developed every year using current baseball coaching practice principles. Are they? No... And there is only 1 successful major league person that I am aware of that drops down and pushes off the rubber and thats Roger Clemens. Now I wouldn't teach anyone else to do that. That is his style and it works for him, but what is to say that it will work for some 6'8 240 pound kid. What you want to do is load up your weight on your back leg, then pretend that some small kid is pushing your back hip, which will in turn make you lead with your front hip. You want to lead with your front hip. (If you lead with your shoulder then that is whats called rushing, you won't get a good weight transfer). Then once you've landed on your braced front leg, and your throwing, you want your foot to "squish the bug" and peel off the rubber. You want your back foot/toe to be in contact with the ground through ball release, otherwise it's like throwing to a moving target. "In order to do the "push" kids would get down low collapsing their back legs or just drive forward with their front shoulder - both velocity and energy killers. So there would be less velocity and more stress on the arm. There has always been a better way so that the pitcher created more energy to go into the pitch while producing a longer stride. Getting off the back leg from the push by the "little man" requires getting the weight over a firm posting leg and staying tall only for an instant because once the pitcher feels his weight fully loaded over his bacl leg he can move off of it leading with his front hip. All you have to do is feel a connection between the back leg and the back hip. Then when the little man pushes you off quickly the leg does not collapse. If you stay over the back leg too long it can collapse. But the key is to start shifting the weight earlier just as the leg starts down out of balance and depending on your wind-up some major league pitchers start shifting their weight before their leg reaches its highest point. Remember they have better control of their body than a youth or high school pitcher. This is not going to be quite as easy for a LL pitcher but get them started early and you will find that they can do it as well. In fact, it will feel even more natural to them to shift their weight earlier than later. If you can explain it to them in this way they can create a picture of what you want them to do. You can show them Matt Kinney and let them see how he leads with his front hip and how he starts off his back hip as his leg starts down. As they get stronger they will be able to do it better and more under control. The sole focus must be on the front hip leading (and the front elbow) as they move toward the target. Forget about the front leg and foot. That is what is getting some in trouble. Just drive the front hip straight ahead. The hip will deposit the foot on the line. You can make adjustments from there." -Dick Mills
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#4
07-23-2005, 02:37 PM
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How did I know Dick Mills would be brought into this. I would have put $5 on it.
Anyway..... I've got a tourney game to go to and will give some thoughts later.
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#5
07-23-2005, 08:50 PM
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Here's another... Before 1948, HALF OF THE MOST TALENTED PLAYERS COULDN'T PLAY! They weren't allowed to. Today's players are the best of the best, not half. I think it's too hard to argue if they are or aren't better now. Quote:
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#6
07-23-2005, 09:42 PM
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I feel long-toss is a great exercise to strengthen and increase velocity. That, coupled with mechanics to take advantage of the strength produces some extra velocity. This is one of those things that I go along with the vast majority of pitching coaches that use long toss for that purpose. Now if you happen to be at or about your upper limit, long toss will help keep you there.
And after a while I just stopped reading Dick Mills. The drill are good as stated above but some things I just don't believe.
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#7
07-23-2005, 11:18 PM
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You know, this past fall/winter I pitched tuesday, friday, and sunday. Probably around 100 pitches each time. (Started in late october, ended in mid march) My velocity was a constant 83-85 MPH and my control was veryyy veryyy good. I also found out that when I did long toss, I could throw a lot harder and a lot farther... hmmm, how cool is that eh? Maybe I can make a case for throwing off the mound will make you a better long tosser then right? Quote:
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DYK over 80% of minor league pitchers go through at least one surgery involving their pitching arm. You want to know why? Bad mechanics... sure some are freak accidents but most are from bad mechanics... so, go figure..
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#8
07-24-2005, 08:09 AM
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I would say that anybody that gets to AA or above is pretty darn good. Single A isn't so special but the AA and certainly AAA gets a few bows from me.
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#9
07-24-2005, 08:13 AM
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To sum up: I think long toss is a valuble tool in the whole equation. No on to pushing off the rubber......
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#10
07-24-2005, 08:21 AM
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Long toss WILL improve your arm strength. I won't argue that with you any more. Quote:
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#11
07-24-2005, 12:42 PM
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Yes that would define irony right there..
How he made it to AAA? Who knows... but he did get a huge million+ dollar contract.... Sure he didn't succeed in the majors and what not but... hes a millionaire. You are 100000000000% correct on if you want to get better at throwing, you throw more.. just like if you want to get better at hitting you hit more. My friend doesn't push off the rubber, and next year he'll be drafted out of high school barring he doesn't get injured. I don't... I don't know anyone who teaches to push off the rubber anymore... not even the stupid pitching instructers anymore ^_^ No offense to them Last edited by XFactor; 07-25-2005 at 12:17 PM.
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#12
07-24-2005, 12:50 PM
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"Define irony: a bunch of idiots dancing around on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash." - Steve Buscemi in Con Air (Sweet Home Alabama plays in the background.)
__________________
A lot of people say this honor validates my career, but I didn't work hard for validation. I didn't play the game right because I saw a reward at the end of the tunnel. I played it right because that's what you're supposed to do, play it right and with respect. If this validates anything, it's that learning how to bunt and hit and run and turning two is more important than knowing where to find the little red light at the dug out camera. - Ryne Sandberg
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#14
07-24-2005, 01:12 PM
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I too know no one that pushes off the rubber.
__________________
A lot of people say this honor validates my career, but I didn't work hard for validation. I didn't play the game right because I saw a reward at the end of the tunnel. I played it right because that's what you're supposed to do, play it right and with respect. If this validates anything, it's that learning how to bunt and hit and run and turning two is more important than knowing where to find the little red light at the dug out camera. - Ryne Sandberg
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#15
07-24-2005, 01:51 PM
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#16
07-24-2005, 02:01 PM
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Second point - Don't judge people by how much money they've gotten for any certain thing. Baseball, like life, is not fair. Some VERY talented young men have not made big money, or even been drafted, for that matter. Except for a small percentage of people who have EVER played it, baseball is a game that will break your heart. Only a select few get to choose when to stop playing it. The rest of us end up heartbroken. We still love it. Some of us choose to coach just so we can stay in the game, keep wearing the uniform, and hopefully help others attain their dreams. Most of us in the game could make LOTS more money elsewhere. There's nothing like the thrill, though, of putting on new home whites, listening to the National Anthem and then watching the first pitch of a new season. It makes you feel like you'll live forever.
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#17
07-25-2005, 01:03 AM
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I agree completely with those that said Long Toss helps the pitcher. How could it not? What if those two people, of equal arm strength were throwing from the same point. The one from a stand still let his ball go at the perfect release point, and the player from a run let go too late and throws his into the dirt? Alot goes into throwing a ball, and how could arm strength not be attributed to it? Long Toss DOES build arm strength, it did for me. The key to pitching hard AND effective is combining that arm strength with solid mechanics, which is probably a leading factor in your "not as many good pitchers" debate. Too many pitchers want to just throw hard, and forget about mechanics.
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#18
07-25-2005, 07:39 AM
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This study may prove benificial to some in regards to the value of weighted baseballs in developing arm strength. The University of Hawaii did a study that involved 45 highschool pitchers and 180 university pitchers. Three workouts a week over a 10 week period were used. The specifics minus distance were used. The control group used only a standard 5oz ball. The second group used a standard 5oz and heavy 6oz ball for five weeks and then used a standard 5oz and light 4oz ball for te second five weeks. The third group trained with a standard, heavy and light ball simultaneously through the 10 week period.
Each workout consisted of 66 pitches. The control using only standard balls. The second group threw 11 standard, 44 heavy, 11 standard the first five weeks and then 11 standard, 44 light, 11 standard. The third group threw 11 standard, 22 heavy, 22 light, 11 standard. At the end of the 10 week session the first group showed no improvement in velocity while both the second and third groups showed 6 to 8 percent increases in velocity. It was also noted that while throwing heavier balls only,the result was an increase in strength but a draw back was the fine tuning of the nervous system to coordinate a strong but slow movement. By incorporating the light weight balls the quicker than usual arm movement taught the players nervous systems to recruit muscular activity very quickly. The concept behind throwing heavy first and then light is based on developing shoulder strength before moving into the quicker than usual phase of the arms motion.  
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#19
07-25-2005, 04:29 PM
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Before I let my son do the heavier/weighted ball thing I'd have to have someone who has instructed in it for a while help me out. I can see the benifits in theory but of course theory doesn't always equate to practice.
I pushed off the rubber. Not a drop and drive but right at the end of the "fall" I would give a nudge. I'm sure that's not what we are talking about though.
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#20
07-25-2005, 04:31 PM
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#21
07-25-2005, 06:17 PM
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Are you left handed? Read the whole thing. Six three or above, 93 or above. LEFT HANDED. The MAJOR LEAGUES are not littered with guys like this. I know the minors aren't. The majority of guys who claim to throw 90+ don't. At least not consistantly.
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#23
07-25-2005, 09:06 PM
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Over 6'3"?
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#25
07-26-2005, 02:21 AM
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