More records (Biggio & Bagwell)

[nolanryan5714]

Tonight, we saw 3 important milestones:

1. Biggio reached the #60 spot on the all-time hit list.
2. Biggio stole his 400th stolen base.
3. Bagwell walked for the 1,400th time.

History seems to be in the making virtually every time those two and Clemens play!

[barzilla]

David,

Another record they have to watch out for every time they play together is that Bagwell has driven in Biggio more often than any other tandem in baseball history. When you think of the famous dynamic duos in history, that is pretty impressive.

[PopTop]

Good catch, Scott, on the RBI note.

Bidge is simply amazing as far as I'm concerned.

[barzilla]

I have a feeling none of us will truly appreciate these guys until we have an opportunity to look back on their careers with some perspective. One thing that is sad about these guys is that they have never been given the love they disappear because people in the press (and on boards like this) have focused on the negatives. Consider the following:

1) When they were in their primes (1992-1999) people focused on their inability to produce in the post-season or get to the post-season (in some cases). In both cases, the problems centered around either bad luck or lack of support in the lineup.

2) Currently, these players are seen as clogging up the pipeline in terms of money and younger players ability to play. I am guilty of this one for sure and its hard not to be. You have two players that take up 20 million of a 80 million payroll, but they don't produce anywhere near that level anymore. Plus, you have the likes of Lance Berkman (who should move to first) and Chris Burke (who should be at second) having to wait their turn.

Keeping these things in mind, I have been working on my third book. Essentially, it is a project using metrics to evaluate the games' best players (similar to Bill James' Historical Abstracts but modernized and more consistently focused). Agents have turned down my efforts to do one on Hall of Fame selection process, so I'm shortening it to include the top ten at every position. Biggio and Bagwell are in the top ten at their position. If you look at their numbers in the late 1990s it is amazing.

[nolanryan5714]

Good post there, Scott. I agree with almost everything you said.

However, I have a few comments on this part:

Originally Posted by barzilla

2) Currently, these players are seen as clogging up the pipeline in terms of money and younger players ability to play. I am guilty of this one for sure and its hard not to be. You have two players that take up 20 million of a 80 million payroll, but they don't produce anywhere near that level anymore. Plus, you have the likes of Lance Berkman (who should move to first) and Chris Burke (who should be at second) having to wait their turn.

Yes, many see them as "clogging" the lineup - but the results would be dire if you replaced them right now in the way you think they should.
-Burke at second? He has had quite a bit of playing time already, and is yet to become a full-time big leaguer.
-Berkman at first? That means Bagwell, who is still a production player, is OUT. He can't play any other position, period. Biggio at least could move back to the outfield, but if we're playing the hypothetical "minus Bags and Bidge" game here, then you must assume Luke Scott would play outfield...and he isn't playing very impressively, either.

You have to believe in Biggio and Bagwell for at least another season. We don't have any good alternatives, and the way Biggio is playing, I wouldn't want him to move anywhere anyway.
I'm sure Bagwell will hit 25-30 homers again this year, so keep him playing too!

[barzilla]

Yes, many see them as "clogging" the lineup - but the results would be dire if you replaced them right now in the way you think they should.

David,

You need to read my second book. (I love shameless plugs) The Seattle Mariners became better when they let Griffey, Rodriguez, and Johnson go for two reasons.

1) They got players for two of them that ended up contributing. Mike Cameron, Freddy Garcia, and Carlos Guillen all ended up being solid contributors at those positions. They did not equal those guys numbers, but they did enough.

2) This is the most important one right here. They used the excess money to acquire players that helped their club in other areas.

When you're thinking about a roster, you think about it in terms of 25 pieces rather than one or two specific pieces. Would Chris Burke be better than Biggio? I'm not sure, I think he would be better defensively and would put up some offensive numbers, but the important thing is that he is cheap. Therefore, you would have nearly all of that twenty million to get an outfielder to replace Berkman. Then, you have other money to improve other areas of the club. Therefore, you are better off overall.

[nolanryan5714]

I see what you're saying, Scott...but, with a couple of exceptions across the league, I don't think ANYONE would dare give the bench to Biggio for Burke. Biggio is just WAY too hot right now!
After tonight's 3-4 game, he is up to .309 with 3 homers, 10 doubles, and 14 ribbies. 39 years old? What???

Also, when it comes to monetary issues on Biggs and Bags, don't forget that they were underpaid for their "prime" years, so this could be considered back payment (especially for Jeff!).
In addition, Craig took a pay CUT (don't remember the exact amount) just so he could stay with the club...that's unheard of these days, as you know!


I want the 2 big vets to stay out there and play their hearts out.

[barzilla]

David,

Now that they're here you have to play them. With Biggio I would give him a mandatory day off per week. Last season he did this in April, May, and June and then started to fade. At 39 he is not a 155-160 game player anymore, but at 130 games he might be able to maintain his current level of production. I think we can all agree he is playing great ball right now. I just want him to continue playing that kind of ball in August and September. Giving him consistent rest is how you do it.

[strosfan]

Originally Posted by nolanryan5714

Also, when it comes to monetary issues on Biggs and Bags, don't forget that they were underpaid for their "prime" years, so this could be considered back payment (especially for Jeff!).
In addition, Craig took a pay CUT (don't remember the exact amount) just so he could stay with the club...that's unheard of these days, as you know!

People just don't understand that BOTH of them restructured their contracts in order to get players on the team. They agreed to get paid less now and more later. This was back in the 90's in order to get Caminiti, Kile, Randy Johnson, for example, they did what was best for the "team". Other ballplayers don't do that. I, for one, appreciate them every day and will be heart-broken when they play their last game. I couldn't be prouder to have those two on our team.

[Robert]

I know!!! Biggio and Bagwell are what makes the Astros, THE Astros of the 90's and the Millenium. They are THE Killer B's, and there will never be a pair like them two.

I have been a Astros fan since 1996, can you name one player on the Astros now, that was an Astro in 1996? I can only name 2

Chris Burke is young, keep in mind, and will get his fair share of playing time in the Outfield, pinch hitting, filling in for Craig on Days off, he'll develop. Same with any other player, unless they are hot, like Willy Taveras who is just, well, just very good at this point. Luke Scott and Chris Burke will find that spark, and bloom perfectly, just wait a year or two.

[nolanryan5714]

Welcome, Robert!

It's great to have you and your input here. We all hope you will continue to contribute...

P.S. - guys, I won't be around to contribute for several days after 05-05-05, so let's hope we kick the CRAP outta the Braves and Marlins!

(Number 5 is my favorite number...maybe it'll bring us some luck!)

[barzilla]

David,

Are you predicting some incapcitation after Cinco de Mayo?

Berkman is coming back this weekend, so life will be better and hopefully the illness bug is leaving. However, last night Bagwell was out of the lineup for the first time in his career because of shoulder soreness. This is not a good sign.

One of the reasons I go the other way on Biggio and Bagwell that most of you do is I like to see guys retire on top or near the top of their game. I hate to see people hang on to get certain numbers. I want to remember both for being the great players they were. If this is going to dehibilitate Bagwell to the point where he can't be himself he will bow out gracefully after the season.

[strosfan]

I was listening to Richard Justice, writer for the Chronicle, yesterday on the radio concerning Bagwell. Bedsides crediting Bagwell for being the most honest person you'd ever want to meet; bagwell has been having meetings with front office about his shoulder problems and has flat-out told them that he will NOT embarass this ball club. He is the heart and soul of that clubhouse and teammates speak very highly of him.

The guy can still play and more importantly - he still wants to play. As long as he can continue to contribute, stop trying to end his career. His shoulder will do that for him soon enough.

[barzilla]

The guy can still play and more importantly - he still wants to play. As long as he can continue to contribute, stop trying to end his career. His shoulder will do that for him soon enough

It's good to see he's having meetings with management. I never said he should retire now. I said he should retire if his shoulder incapcitates him (or diminishes him a great deal). He is not the player that hit 40+ homers and walked 120 times a season, but he is on a pace to walk 90+ times this year and hit around 20-25 home runs. If he does that I have no problem with him finishing out his contract because he is still productive.

Listen, when I think about him hanging it up it isn't out of a desire to get rid of him, but to see him retire near the top. The last thing we want to see is a Willie Mays from 1973 out there. Bagwell is one of the top five first baseman of all-time and he deserves to be remembered that way.

I'm reminded of a story I read in Bill James Historical Abstract. It seems that Lou Gehrig knew it was time to end his streak in 1939 when Tony Lazzeri and Bill Dickey patted him on the back after a play he deemed to be routine. Just like Gehrig, Bagwell has a dehabilitating condition that will drive him out of the game eventually. Only Bagwell knows how much pain he is in and how much the condition limits him. Like Gehrig, it will only get worse. The question with all living legends is exactly when to hang it up. Jim Brown and Barry Sanders left a lot on the field, but guys like Gehrig, Nolan Ryan, and Hakeem Olajuwon would have been better off hanging it up the season before. The question Bagwell (and Biggio and Clemens) face is exactly when that right time is. I simply believe that more heroes retire too late than too early. I am more saddened by the former than the later.

[Hammerin Hank]

Yesterday against the Braves, Craig Biggio scored his 1621st career run, passing Roger Connor for 36th all time.

[The Commissioner]

Originally Posted by barzilla

David,

Another record they have to watch out for every time they play together is that Bagwell has driven in Biggio more often than any other tandem in baseball history. When you think of the famous dynamic duos in history, that is pretty impressive.

Wow, that's fascinating!!! I've never even heard that stat before. I don't suppose you happen to have the numbers on that and/or the other top tandems?

[barzilla]

Wow, that's fascinating!!! I've never even heard that stat before. I don't suppose you happen to have the numbers on that and/or the other top tandems?

Actually I don't. I want to say it's something close to 1000 but I could be wrong. It was announced during an Astros broadcast a couple of years ago. Thinking back its really not as impressive as it seems. Biggio and Bagwell have been together since 1991 and both enjoyed their primes at the same time. When you think about it, very few other tandems played as long together during their primes as Biggio and Bagwell. It is as much serendipity as it is skill.

[The Commissioner]

Originally Posted by barzilla

Thinking back its really not as impressive as it seems. Biggio and Bagwell have been together since 1991 and both enjoyed their primes at the same time. When you think about it, very few other tandems played as long together during their primes as Biggio and Bagwell. It is as much serendipity as it is skill.

I agree that a lot of it is luck, but I would also venture to say if someone has a list of the top five or top ten, you're talking about almost all Hall of Famers or Hall of Famer caliber players. Regardless, I just think it's a neat stat. It may be mostly meaningless, but still just interesting to see.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by barzilla

Actually I don't. I want to say it's something close to 1000 but I could be wrong. It was announced during an Astros broadcast a couple of years ago. Thinking back its really not as impressive as it seems. Biggio and Bagwell have been together since 1991 and both enjoyed their primes at the same time. When you think about it, very few other tandems played as long together during their primes as Biggio and Bagwell. It is as much serendipity as it is skill.

Driven in Biggio 1000 times? That's way off, It's more like 300 if anything :P

[barzilla]

Originally Posted by Robert

Driven in Biggio 1000 times? That's way off, It's more like 300 if anything :P

You're probably right. 400-500 seems a lot more reasonable, but it is a ludicrous number whichever one it is. I can't remember the exact number because it is one of those RAS (random ass stats) that they throw out there every now and then.

[nolanryan5714]

Biggio led off tonight's game against the Giants with a homer, adding to his N.L. record for leadoffs. He now has 42.
(BTW, he hit 2 homers in the game.)

[strosfan]

Originally Posted by nolanryan5714

Biggio led off tonight's game against the Giants with a homer, adding to his N.L. record for leadoffs. He now has 42.
(BTW, he hit 2 homers in the game.)

Just when I think I can't be any more amazed at his efforts...

[Hammerin Hank]

Yesterday against the Giants, Craig Biggio scored his 1623rd career run, passing Al Kaline for 35th all time.

[BagwellFan]

Originally Posted by The Commissioner

Wow, that's fascinating!!! I've never even heard that stat before. I don't suppose you happen to have the numbers on that and/or the other top tandems?

I first heard this statistic durring a broadcast several years ago, but I vaugly remember it being mentioned sometime last year. If memory serves I think it was in the ballpark of 38% of Bagwell's RBIs are Biggio scoring. If my number is correct, that means Biggio has scored because of Bagwell about 580 times. Talk about an impressive figure.

[Hammerin Hank]

On July 28 against the Mets, Craig had his 9590th career at bat, passing Nap Lajoie for 31st all time.