No wonder GIL can't get in

[webmaster]

I owe each of you here an apology. I deleted this entire thread. If I could give an excuse it would be that I was tired and a bit upset. I had to give up my Sunday away from my family due to problems at work. Yesterday I worked 16 hours at work. Today I had a short day, only 14 hours. I got home and there were a LOT of Private Messages. Most were about members who were a bit off topic. One of them pointed to this thread and I deleted not the post, but the entire thread. I did not even realize I did it until I got up to fix my daughter her nightly warm chocolate milk and heard the email sound, sat back down, saw the PM that asked about the thread then realized I screwed up.

I am sorry.

Now, if possible, can somebody tell me why Gil can't get in?

[bigbum]

If we want to get Big Gil into the HOF,maybe we should do it one step at a time.
What if we true "Dodger" fans contacted the living players that he not only played with, but also the ones he played against, to assist us. Also, what
about first getting his number retired with you know who.

If you are really Dodger fans, and you saw him play you KNOW that he was
a great defensive first baseman, probably the best of his era, and he wasn't too shabby at the plate either.

I am sure that you all remember that he was a part of one of the greatest
infields ever that already has three HOF'ers. Unfortunately, No. 3, ,the Greatest defensive 3rd baseman I've ever seen can,t make, but that's another story.

What are your thoughts about this?

[DODGER DEB]

Originally Posted by bigbum

If we want to get Big Gil into the HOF,maybe we should do it one step at a time.
What if we true "Dodger" fans contacted the living players that he not only played with, but also the ones he played against, to assist us. Also, what
about first getting his number retired with you know who.

If you are really Dodger fans, and you saw him play you KNOW that he was
a great defensive first baseman, probably the best of his era, and he wasn't too shabby at the plate either.

I am sure that you all remember that he was a part of one of the greatest
infields ever that already has three HOF'ers. Unfortunately, No. 3, ,the Greatest defensive 3rd baseman I've ever seen can,t make, but that's another story.

What are your thoughts about this?

First, bigbum, welcome to OUR Forum. Always nice to add new loyal Brooklyn Dodger Fans to OUR group.

As for GIL getting into the HOF, if you go back and read some of the threads over the past few years, you will see that all the topics you raise have been covered, and then some.

That "west coast group" will NOT retire Gil's number #14, until he is voted into the HOF. It's a policy they have, and have had for years. The only exception they made to this policy was Jim Gilliam's #19.

All the members of the old Veterans Committee were contacted, over and over again in years past, on Gil's behalf....to no avail. There was a huge stumpling block on the Committee at that time, and his name was Ted Williams, who, for personal reasons, did not want to see Gil elected. So, it never happened. With this new group, it's just a matter of educating those who never saw Gil play, or manage for that matter. Hopefully they will see the light before too much time passes.

c.

[LouGehrig]

What was the story with Williams and Hodges? Was it related to Williams and Hodges managing Washington?

[kramer_47]

Ted Williams was just a real SOB, he wasn't well liked when he played and when he was older he was still an Sob with a big ego. Not many people disliked Gil Hodges but Ted Williams had alot of pull on that politically oriented oldtimers committee just look at the election of Bobby Doerr, Red Schoendienst, and Bill Mazeroski. It is ashame that they let this comittee go on for so long, the new committee has alot of egos on it but maybe they will finally vote in Gil in 2007.

[iPod]

Originally Posted by LouGehrig

What was the story with Williams and Hodges? Was it related to Williams and Hodges managing Washington?

I don't think it was anything other than Williams was a prominent member of the VC and was really opposed to Gil Hodges getting in.

[donzblock]

Did Gil and Ted start to hate each other after doing that full page cigarette ad where they are pictured in living color standing back to back?

[strummer]

The story I have been told for years, and which sounds true, is that unfortunately we should blame Hodges popularity and the in-your-face attitude of the Washington Senators fans. Those fans loved Hodges when he managed the Senators and regretted him leaving for the Mets. Williams became the new manager of the Senators, and, either from the very beginning or shortly thereafter, as he was not having too much success with the team, the fans not only got on Ted's back, but really pushed his button by loudly proclaiming day after day "Bring Back Hodges"!

[DODGER DEB]

Originally Posted by strummer

The story I have been told for years, and which sounds true, is that unfortunately we should blame Hodges popularity and the in-your-face attitude of the Washington Senators fans. Those fans loved Hodges when he managed the Senators and regretted him leaving for the Mets. Williams became the new manager of the Senators, and, either from the very beginning or shortly thereafter, as he was not having too much success with the team, the fans not only got on Ted's back, but really pushed his button by loudly proclaiming day after day "Bring Back Hodges"!

You have pretty much "hit the nail right on the head", strummer.

c.

[Aa3rt]

Originally Posted by strummer

The story I have been told for years, and which sounds true, is that unfortunately we should blame Hodges popularity and the in-your-face attitude of the Washington Senators fans. Those fans loved Hodges when he managed the Senators and regretted him leaving for the Mets. Williams became the new manager of the Senators, and, either from the very beginning or shortly thereafter, as he was not having too much success with the team, the fans not only got on Ted's back, but really pushed his button by loudly proclaiming day after day "Bring Back Hodges"!

Folks, I've heard this point made before. I'm afraid I was a little too young to have picked up on the behind the scenes goings on of the Washington Senators managerial scene-however, everyone seems to forget that Gil left after the 1967 season, with the Senators finishing at 76 & 85, 6th place in the (then) 10 team league. In 1968, Jim Lemon was the Senators manager and the team responded by going 65 & 96 and dropping to a 10th place finish. Ted Williams took over in 1969 and led the expansion Senators to their only over .500 finish, 86 & 76, 4th place in the new 6 team Eastern Division.

Expansion Senators Managers & records:

http://baseball-almanac.com/mgrtmtr2.shtml

[kramer_47]

KGCHOST I'd like you to name all first baseman better then Gil, Gil was the best First baseman of the 1950's hands down. I don't know who your favorite team or player was or how old you are but i saw Gil and the Dodgers play and I know one thing he is the best player of that era not in the HOF.

[55 chmps]

Originally Posted by KCGHOST

A real problem with Hodges candidacy is that there are so many 1B's better than him who aren't in the HoF. And that forces his proponents to try and trick people by saying he should get extra credit because he managed some teams and had one WS winner. As a manager his teams won at a .467 clip. You take out the miracle year and his record is real ugly.

As a Brooklyn born boy I am very fond of Gil Hodges, but he isn't an HoFer any way you slice the pie.

KCGHOST, let me ask you a question. I don't know who your favorite team is now, but say your first baseman has hit the most homeruns by a right handed hitter in NL history at the time of his retirment. Would you think he should be in the Hall of Fame? That's what Hodges did. And he had an amazing glove. Bill Mazeroski made it to the HOF because he was great definsivley, so did Ozzie Smith, and they sucked at batting. Hodges in my opinion was the complete package. Some people say that Hodges choked in pressure situations, thats why he can't get in the HOF. I don't buy it. I never saw him play or coach, but i've heard stories from my dad when he was manager with the mets and he should be in the hall even if his managerial record wasn't to hot. But some players got in the HOF with crappy managerial records but were still good ballplayers. Gil was loved by everyone he played for, even if his team didn't have the best record. Maybe I haven't persuaded anyone on this topic, but i just wanted to get my point across. I expect to see Gil's plaque in the Hall of Fame very soon. This is what the commitee should keep in mind.

[tonypug]

Originally Posted by 55 chmps

KCGHOST, let me ask you a question. I don't know who your favorite team is now, but say your first baseman has hit the most homeruns by a right handed hitter in NL history at the time of his retirment. Would you think he should be in the Hall of Fame? That's what Hodges did. And he had an amazing glove. Bill Mazeroski made it to the HOF because he was great definsivley, so did Ozzie Smith, and they sucked at batting. Hodges in my opinion was the complete package. Some people say that Hodges choked in pressure situations, thats why he can't get in the HOF. I don't buy it. I never saw him play or coach, but i've heard stories from my dad when he was manager with the mets and he should be in the hall even if his managerial record wasn't to hot. But some players got in the HOF with crappy managerial records but were still good ballplayers. Gil was loved by everyone he played for, even if his team didn't have the best record. Maybe I haven't persuaded anyone on this topic, but i just wanted to get my point across. I expect to see Gil's plaque in the Hall of Fame very soon. This is what the commitee should keep in mind.

Just to expand on 55chmps very astute observations. Hodges also was the National League leader in grand slam home runs at the time he retired. People point to his o for 21 in the 52 World Series,but don't mention that the next year, 1953 he hit 364 in the World Series. His overall series batting average is 264, not bad considering that 0 for 21 is included. In the 1955 series 7th game he had the only 2 RBI's, otherwise we might not have had that 55 championship, and been talking about Podres and Amoros. If more people did their homework like 55chmps, Gil would already be in the Hall of Fame.

[kramer_47]

Very good points guys, he was the best 1st baseman, best righthanded hitter in the major leagues from 1950-59. He had 310 home runs and 1001 rbi in the 50's, that's an average of 31 homers and 100 rbi a year. Tony he was the grand slam leader until 1972, all those other great hitters in the 50's and 60's and it took Hank Aaron til then to tie Gil. You are right Tony the grand slams show he was clutch, he was only in a slump during the 52 WS and early in 1953 then he was back to his old self. What about the 4 homers in a game in 1950 and Gil hitting for the cycle in 1949. You know there are only 2 other players since 1900 other Gil to accomplish these 2 feats, both are in the Hall of Fame, Lou Gehrig and Chuck Klein. Good job 55 Chmps and Tonypug.

[runningshoes]

What are the comparisons, if any, between Johnny Mize and and Gil Hodges. Mize played 1884 games in a 15 year Career and Hodges played 2071 games in an 18 year career. They both finished with approximately the same amount of hits. I think Mize had 100 or so more, and they are separated by less than 100 RBI's.

The glaring difference to me is Mize's .312 average opposed to Hodges' .273

Did the writers missed the boat with Mize and does Hodges' defensive value make up the difference?

[runningshoes]

Originally Posted by kramer_47

It means alot when you played on 7 teams that went to the World Series.
In the rules for election, one rule is contribution to your team.

Ok, so what did the writers not see that the VC is expected to see?

You talked about Dick Allen in another thread not garnishing enough votes for election, but Hodges sits in the same boat; a boat the writer's put him in.

[kramer_47]

That is the $64,000 Question, Gil was in the top 5 or better on the writers ballot for 12 of 15 years on the ballot, his last year he got 63.4% of the vote. Then his years on the Veterans ballot before new committee were a joke watching the older members make deals to get there buddies in, thats why they made the new committee. The new committee is tough and Gil still got 65% of the vote 52 votes, even though 3 didn't vote for anyone Reggie, Schmidt and someone else. You have to realize this veterans committee really don't want to vote anyone in, they feel they are the elite and have big egos, they may have to revamp the veterans committee. I think this time Gil and maybe even Santo could get in, both gained votes in the last election. As far as Richie goes I think he should be in but the voters aren't supporting him.

[yanks0714]

During the Brooklyn Dodgers heyday, tell me one category that Gil Hodges led the team in?

Gil was a fine player and an even finer gentleman. But that is not the qualification for the HOF.

Gil was, at best, about the 5th most valuable player on those Dodger teams behind Pee Wee, Jackie, Campy, and The Duke. I suspect that Furillo and Newcombe may well have been more valuable too....at least an argument can be made for them.

Please do not bring up Gil's managerial career. Other than the '69 Mets, Gil's managment career is very lackluster.

I suspect that Hodges keeps coming close to the HOF vote because there is a grass roots support for him that keeps trumpeting his name for the HOF.

Am I doing to this post to be argumentive, mean, nasty, and sarcastic? Not at all. I liked Gil Hodges a lot. Just as I was huge Don Mattingly fan. But neither belongs in the HOF.

[yanks0714]

Originally Posted by kramer_47

Ted Williams was just a real SOB, he wasn't well liked when he played and when he was older he was still an Sob with a big ego. Not many people disliked Gil Hodges but Ted Williams had alot of pull on that politically oriented oldtimers committee just look at the election of Bobby Doerr, Red Schoendienst, and Bill Mazeroski. It is ashame that they let this comittee go on for so long, the new committee has alot of egos on it but maybe they will finally vote in Gil in 2007.

I cannot, will not, accept that statement. Are you well aware that it was Ted Williams who stumped hard for Duke Snider's induction. Chiding voters. Promoting Snider's credentials. Canvassing the voters that Snider was worthy. Ted spent much time and effort on getting Snider elected. In the meantime The Duke was seething that he was constantly passed over. his comments on this were probably taken out of context but struck a discord with the HOF voters. A large measure of The Duke finally being inducted was due to Ted Williams.

If the Brooklyn Dodgers fans would look at it without bias you might be able to see that perhaps, just perhaps, Ted Williams did not feel Gil Hodges was worthy of induction.

There are many HOF mistakes in Cooperstown (mostly courtesy of Frankie Frisch who on the Vets Committee) and they should not be used as a guage to induct Hodges.

As I mentioned on another post, Gil was fine player and even finer gentleman. But he was not a HOF player.

[kramer_47]

Originally Posted by yanks0714

During the Brooklyn Dodgers heyday, tell me one category that Gil Hodges led the team in?

Gil was a fine player and an even finer gentleman. But that is not the qualification for the HOF.

Gil was, at best, about the 5th most valuable player on those Dodger teams behind Pee Wee, Jackie, Campy, and The Duke. I suspect that Furillo and Newcombe may well have been more valuable too....at least an argument can be made for them.

Please do not bring up Gil's managerial career. Other than the '69 Mets, Gil's managment career is very lackluster.

I suspect that Hodges keeps coming close to the HOF vote because there is a grass roots support for him that keeps trumpeting his name for the HOF.

Am I doing to this post to be argumentive, mean, nasty, and sarcastic? Not at all. I liked Gil Hodges a lot. Just as I was huge Don Mattingly fan. But neither belongs in the HOF.

Yanks alot of people make the same argument you are making but you're all wrong, Gil was 1st, second or 3rd in homers and rbi on every Dodgers team from 1949-59 and you can look it up. Did you read above where i said Gil was the leading righthanded homer hitter(310) and rbi man (1001) in the majors leagues from 1950-59. Go over to the other thread "Gil Hodges" and you'll see a Sporting News cover from August 1960 where Gil was considered for "player of the decade" with 8 others already in the HOF. What I wrote here is all fact and I don't know where the misconception came about that Gil was a lesser part of the Dodgers then he was, he batted from 4-7 in that lineup alot of times without the protection the others you named were getting.

[yanks0714]

Originally Posted by strummer

The story I have been told for years, and which sounds true, is that unfortunately we should blame Hodges popularity and the in-your-face attitude of the Washington Senators fans. Those fans loved Hodges when he managed the Senators and regretted him leaving for the Mets. Williams became the new manager of the Senators, and, either from the very beginning or shortly thereafter, as he was not having too much success with the team, the fans not only got on Ted's back, but really pushed his button by loudly proclaiming day after day "Bring Back Hodges"!

Rather strange when you consider that Ted Williams didn't replace Gil Hodges. Jim Lemon (or was it Bob Lemon) is the guy who replaced Gil.

Also strange when you consider that Gil never had a winning record in all his years as Senator Manager. In Ted's first year (1969) he led the Senators to a winning record. He also got guys like automatic out Eddie Brinkman to have his best year, by far, at the plate. Got Chuck Hinton squared away.

The fans never chanted for Hodges. Ever. He was viewed as a failure by both the Washington press and the fans.

I read a great deal on Ted Williams and never once heard about a disagreement or grudge against Gil Hodges.

BTW, the vets committe that stocked the HOF with unworthy choices was Frankie Frisch, not Ted Williams.

Ted, like many non-Brooklyn Dodger fans, simply don't feel Hodges qualifies as a HOF'er.

[yanks0714]

Originally Posted by kramer_47

KGCHOST I'd like you to name all first baseman better then Gil, Gil was the best First baseman of the 1950's hands down. I don't know who your favorite team or player was or how old you are but i saw Gil and the Dodgers play and I know one thing he is the best player of that era not in the HOF.

I'm glad you got to see Gil Hodges play. I'm sure it was treat. I am NOT being sarcastic. BUT, my late Dad was a fan of the Baltimore Orioles in his later years. He watched them ALL the time. He drew the conclusion that Brady Anderson was the finest CF'er in the AL if not all of baseball.

The best 1B of the NL was.....Stan Musial.

Big Klu and Joe Adcockwere not chopped liver either.

[kramer_47]

Originally Posted by yanks0714

I'm glad you got to see Gil Hodges play. I'm sure it was treat. I am NOT being sarcastic. BUT, my late Dad was a fan of the Baltimore Orioles in his later years. He watched them ALL the time. He drew the conclusion that Brady Anderson was the finest CF'er in the AL if not all of baseball.

The best 1B of the NL was.....Stan Musial.

Big Klu and Joe Adcockwere not chopped liver either.

Stan was an outfielder most of the time about 1/3 of his games were at 1st base spread over his 20+ year career. As far as Klu and Adcock go read above I already explain myself on that one. Team contribution is big when your team wins like the Dodgers dominated in the late 40's and 50's, Klu played in one world series 1959, Joe Adcock appeared in 2 World Series 1957-58 but really didn't contribute that much. Alot of great players had great stats but there teams hardly won anything, look at Ted Williams one 1948, Ernie Banks none.

[kramer_47]

Originally Posted by leecemark

--He was a big part, but a replaceable one. Robinson, Campanella and Snider were the elite players off that team. Reese was also clearly more important than Hodges. Furillo was probably about equally important. That makes Hodges the 5th or 6th best position player on the team.
--The Dodgers were a great team. but nobody is seriously going to argue they were the best ever. How many teams have the majority of their lineup in the Hall? The 50s Dodgers already have half. Their fans should be happy with that. Although I guess since they haven't had any players to root for since then, their obsession with the last generation of Bums is understandable.

leecemark the Tigers and Mariners, you really never had the joy of a consistant winner and that's ashame you never experienced what most of us Dodgers fans have. You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Gil Hodges, I suggest you look a little more at his full record, dig a little deeper instead of throwing out names without mentioning facts. Most people look at that OPS+ and a few other things and say well he shouldn't be there, i'm going to present the full picture soon, you and others will be surprised and how big a part of those great Dodgers teams he was.

[kramer_47]

Originally Posted by leecemark

--If your presentation is going to claim Hodges was any more than the 5th best player (behind Robinson, Campanella, Snider and Reese) on the team then you probably ought to spend the time on something else. Ain't nobody going to be buying what you've got to sell.

See you're comparing apples and oranges, this was a great team and everyone had a job to do, we're not comparing here we're showing you that Gil was a great compliment to these other great players. See everyone looking in at this team wants to say who was the best player or the 2nd best but us Dodgers fans look at it as a team with different parts. Peewee batted second trying to get on for the other 3 also trying to move over the number1 hitter probably Furillo or Cox, also was part of our great infield. Duke batted third, great hitter great power guy, the best centerfield of the 3 in NY in the 50's. Jackie batted 4th great hitter, very fast, decent rbi guy, knew how to get on base and create havoc also a pretty good second baseman. Campy or Gil batted 5 or 6 when it came to hitting they were the closest. Campy was a few years older a good hitter with power but he was the greatest catcher in the 50's. Gil was your power guy along with Campy and Duke, Gil also knew how to get on base and knock in runs, he knocked in 100 runs 7 years in row.Gil was also an all star 8 times because he was the best righthanded power hitter of the 1950's with 310 homers and 1001 rbi and the best 1st baseman in the National league he won the fisrt 3 golld gloves at 1st base.
I really just skimmed the surface but Gil isn't competing with any of these great players he was just a teammate that was a big part of those great teams.