Atlantic & Flatbush

I have been re-reading The Dodgers Move West and it got me wondering what currently stands at O'Malley's proposed stadium site. Do you Brooklyn fans think this would have been a good place for a possible Dodger Stadium?

I've only been to Brooklyn once and wasn't able to check out the site.

Also, if the Giants had left after '57 and the Dodgers stayed: Do you think the Mets would have been added to the NL in '62?

Thanks

[donzblock]

The LIRR would have received a shot in the arm. The city's transit system would have benefited since parking down there would have been impossible. It might have been the precursor of Camden Yards, which draws millions of fans who use public transportation, not the automobile. And it would have kept the Dodgers in Brooklyn. That adds up to success. But right about now, the park would probably be on its last legs, and the Dodgers would be making noises for a new one with luxury boxes. Right about now, astute Brooklyn politicians would be trying to interest the Dodger owners in moving to Coney Island and putting up a magificent major league park where Keyspan now stands. Such a project would revitalize that area of Brooklyn, force the city to make Stillwell Avenue the Grand Central on the Atlantic, and enable Ratner to purchase the Atlantic Avenue ballpark for the purpose of converting it into a complex that would feature the Brooklyn Nets of the NBA and the Brooklyn Coney Islanders of the NHL. The ultimate goal, of course, would be to lure the Jets into Brooklyn, thereby making the borough the home of four major sports franchises. That is what should have happened.

[DODGER DEB]

EVERTHING the Professor stated is true!

The "Big O" knew exactly what he was doing when he asked for that piece of land at Atlantic Avenue/LIRR to build OUR new ballpark, a ballpark HE would have built and payed for with no public money, unlike today's owners.

OUR new ballpark would have done wonders for BROOKLYN, for many years to come. Instead, today that area is in the middle of a huge legal mess with Bruce Ratner, the Nets owner, and NYC trying to build a new arena on the same site to insure the Nets move to BROOKLYN. The difference today is that the entire area has hundreds of homes with a few thousand people living in them. To build this arena these people will have to be evicted and the homes all torn down. These people are fighting this all the way which could take years to clear in the courts, if ever. Whereas, if OUR new ballpark was in place, all they would have to do is replace it with the new basketball arena.

As WE discussed in a previous thread, the Coney Island area (in Brooklyn) where the new KeySpan Park is located and its wide surrounding area (Stillwell Avenue/Surf Avenue/E. 16th to E. 20th Streets) which has been in desperate need of HELP for many,many years now, would be perfect for a new ML ballpark, with the Atlantic Ocean as a backdrop, like SF. IT would be perfect!

If WE had some CLEAR THINKING in BROOKLYN and NYC in 1956/1957 it could have been a WIN/WIN situation for BROOKLYN and NYC for years to come. Instead, WE were forced to live with Robert Moses, his arrogant ego and his insufferable attitude of..."my way or the highway"! While I am in no way taking the heat off the "Big O", given the situation as WE knew it, taking Moses out of the picture would have given everyone what they wanted....AND OUR DODGERS WOULD STILL BE THE BROOKLYN DODGERS!

c.

I find it amazing that the Parks Commission wouldn't give the Dodgers the land. If O'Malley had offered to build a stadium with his own money in 1975 or 2005 you would still have your Dodgers. Every city wanting a team would have beaten down his door.

Originally Posted by DODGER DEB

Robert Moses, his arrogant ego and his insufferable attitude of..."my way or the highway"! While I am in no way taking the heat off the "Big O", given the situation as WE knew it, taking Moses out of the picture would have given everyone what they wanted....AND OUR DODGERS WOULD STILL BE THE BROOKLYN DODGERS!

c.

It seems to me that Robert Moses's mottow was 'my way IS the highway"

[DODGER DEB]

Originally Posted by wamby

I find it amazing that the Parks Commission wouldn't give the Dodgers the land. If O'Malley had offered to build a stadium with his own money in 1975 or 2005 you would still have your Dodgers. Every city wanting a team would have beaten down his door.

The ONE and ONLY PERSON who had the CONTROL and the POWER over whether "O" got THAT land or not, was ROBERT MOSES...no one else! Every politician in NYS at that time, from the Governor to the Mayor of NYC, including the Brooklyn Boro President, had NO POWER over MOSES (HE was accountable to NO ONE), and they were scared to death to oppose him. NO one ever raised their voice, in public, in opposition to what HE was doing...NOT ONE of THEM!

THIS is what WE were up against! In the end, HIS ego clashed with the "Big O's" and WE LOST EVERYTHING!

c.

[tonypug]

The area of the proposed new stadium also housed the meat market which was in a very rundown state. The plans called for moving the meat market, redoing the LIRR terminal and renovating the entire area, which badly needed it. The clash of two giant egos not only cost us a baseball team but hurt Brooklyn economically.

[donzblock]

It certainly did hurt us. Wamby is dead on about Moses' motto: "My way IS the highway." Moses was blind to the fact that a city like New York lives and dies with its transit system, not with its highways. Moses was horrible, the worst kind of person to have such power in the New York of the 50s.

[Paulmcall]

Caro's book The Power Broker about Robert Moses presents his story very well.
It's like reading a horror story about one man's power and ego trip. Incredible.

[tonypug]

Moses was a very powerfull man, who was not an elected official. All of the city politicians worried about being re-elected, Moses didn't have that worry. Because of his position Moses could hurt or help other elected officials and used that power constantly. O'Malley had no chance against Moses and later used that in the move to LA.O knew he wouldn't get the Atlantic and Flatbush site and used that as justification for moving to LA. This incident marked the beginning of Moses gradual loss of power.

[boysof7]

Originally Posted by donzblock

The LIRR would have received a shot in the arm. The city's transit system wouldwhich draws millions of fans who use public transportation, not the automobile. And it would have kept the Dodgers in Brooklyn. That adds up to success. But right about now, the park would probably be on its last legs, and the Dodgers would be making noises for a new one with luxury boxes. Right about now, astute Brooklyn politicians would be trying to interest the Dodger owners in moving to Coney Island and putting up a magificent major league park where Keyspan now stands. Such a project would revitalize that area of Brooklyn, force the city to make Stillwell Avenue the Grand Central on the Atlantic, and enable Ratner to purchase the Atlantic Avenue ballpark for the purpose of converting it into a complex that would feature the Brooklyn Nets of the NBA and the Brooklyn Coney Islanders of the NHL. The ultimate goal, of course, would be to lure the Jets into Brooklyn, thereby making the borough the home of four major sports franchises. That is what should have happened.

can you tell me how many proposed parking spaces the site at Flatbush and Atlantic would have provided?

[boysof7]

Originally Posted by boysof7

can you tell me how many proposed parking spaces the site at Flatbush and Atlantic would have provided?

all things considered I am of the opinion that O'M insisted on Flatbush-Atlantic site because he knew he wouldn't get it. he used Moses ego and power against him. The OAM wanted LA since 1947!!!!

[donzblock]

Originally Posted by boysof7

can you tell me how many proposed parking spaces the site at Flatbush and Atlantic would have provided?

Yes, I certainly can. I have done the math, and it comes to seven parking spaces--half that if the city doesn't suspend alternate-side-of-the-street parking.

P.S. You have managed to butcher my quote, sir.

[DODGER DEB]

Originally Posted by donzblock

Yes, I certainly can. I have done the math, and it comes to seven parking spaces--half that if the city doesn't suspend alternate-side-of-the-street parking.

P.S. You have managed to butcher my quote, sir.

Now, now, Professor, let's be TOTALLY TRUTHFUL......wasn't it more like 6 plus a space for a cart, right on the corner?

c.

[boysof7]

Originally Posted by donzblock

Yes, I certainly can. I have done the math, and it comes to seven parking spaces--half that if the city doesn't suspend alternate-side-of-the-street parking.

P.S. You have managed to butcher my quote, sir.

please clarify. What quote and who butchered it?

[donzblock]

Originally Posted by boysof7

please clarify. What quote and who butchered it?

Reread #11, the first line where you quote my post.

[boysof7]

Originally Posted by donzblock

Reread #11, the first line where you quote my post.

still don't know what you mean by misquote. I had read that there would have been 2000 parking spaces. Are you saying that all depended on LIRR and no parking at all?

[MATHA531]

In the book the op cited above, the author makes it very clear that it was probably illegal for the city of New York to appropriate the land the sub human O'Malley claimed he needed to build his ballpart. It was a cover, he was going to LALA land no matter what.

You know this Robert Moses thing is simply an attempt to try to justify what this piece of garbage did. Did the Crosley family owning a team making nowhere near the money the Dodgers were making go to the city of Cincinnati and demand they be given land along the Riverfront so they could build a stadium? Did the Carpenter family in Philadelphia go to the city of Philadelphia and demand they be given land in south Philadelphia to build a ball park? Both of them played in ball parks every bit as decrepit as Ebbets Field and they lasted another decade in those parks...the piece of slut O'Malley could have waited and worked with the City of New York, Ebbets Field could have lasted another decade (Fenway Park, Wrigley Field are just as old as Ebbets Field was as were Connie Mack Stadium, Crosley Field, Sportsman Park, Briggs Stadium, Griffith Stadium)....to try to take the blame off of the piece of garbage is absurd. He was not happy making the 2nd most money in baseball, he wanted more.

Yes a decent capitalist position but in 1957 baseball was supposedly a sport reflecting the values of the community. He singlehandedly changed all that and were all the worse off for it today.

[tonypug]

Originally Posted by MATHA531

In the book the op cited above, the author makes it very clear that it was probably illegal for the city of New York to appropriate the land the sub human O'Malley claimed he needed to build his ballpart. It was a cover, he was going to LALA land no matter what.

You know this Robert Moses thing is simply an attempt to try to justify what this piece of garbage did. Did the Crosley family owning a team making nowhere near the money the Dodgers were making go to the city of Cincinnati and demand they be given land along the Riverfront so they could build a stadium? Did the Carpenter family in Philadelphia go to the city of Philadelphia and demand they be given land in south Philadelphia to build a ball park? Both of them played in ball parks every bit as decrepit as Ebbets Field and they lasted another decade in those parks...the piece of slut O'Malley could have waited and worked with the City of New York, Ebbets Field could have lasted another decade (Fenway Park, Wrigley Field are just as old as Ebbets Field was as were Connie Mack Stadium, Crosley Field, Sportsman Park, Briggs Stadium, Griffith Stadium)....to try to take the blame off of the piece of garbage is absurd. He was not happy making the 2nd most money in baseball, he wanted more.

Yes a decent capitalist position but in 1957 baseball was supposedly a sport reflecting the values of the community. He singlehandedly changed all that and were all the worse off for it today.

You have to stop holding things in, and let them out more often. Just kidding, you express the same sentiments that most of us who were there feel. Welcome to our universe, and hope to see you around.

[Bluesteve32]

Originally Posted by wamby

Also, if the Giants had left after '57 and the Dodgers stayed: Do you think the Mets would have been added to the NL in '62?

Thanks

My feeling is that if the Dodgers remained in Brooklyn, the Giants were moving to Minneapolis, the home of their AAA Millers. That was already set, from what I inderstand. O'Money convinced Stoneham to move to San Francisco, together

In that scenario, The Griffith-Senators would not have had Minneapolis as an alternative when the AL expanded and move to that city and gave the new expansion team to Washington. My guess is that SF or LA would have gotten a 1962 NL expansion franchise along with Houston, depending on where the other 1961 AL franchise or the Senator/Twins would have ended up.

For the most part, I think the cities that had teams in 1963, would be the same cities in any scenario. It just made sense that the West Coast have at least three teams, Washington would also have either kept the Griffith-Senators or they would have relocated to a West Coast city rather than Minnesota and have gotten the Senators II or the AL would have put that second 1961 expansion team on the West Coast, which would have balanced their other 1961 expansion team the LA Angels.

[tonypug]

Originally Posted by Bluesteve32

My feeling is that if the Dodgers remained in Brooklyn, the Giants were moving to Minneapolis, the home of their AAA Millers. That was already set, from what I inderstand. O'Money convinced Stoneham to move to San Francisco, together

In that scenario, The Griffith-Senators would not have had Minneapolis as an alternative when the AL expanded and move to that city and gave the new expansion team to Washington. My guess is that SF or LA would have gotten a 1962 NL expansion franchise along with Houston, depending on where the other 1961 AL franchise or the Senator/Twins would have ended up.

For the most part, I think the cities that had teams in 1963, would be the same cities in any scenario. It just made sense that the West Coast have at least three teams, Washington would also have either kept the Griffith-Senators or they would have relocated to a West Coast city rather than Minnesota and have gotten the Senators II or the AL would have put that second 1961 expansion team on the West Coast, which would have balanced their other 1961 expansion team the LA Angels.

The Giants had asked the National League for permission to move to Minneapolis, in those days all the other National League teams had to vote yes. When put to a vote O'Malley voted no, the Giants request was turned down. O'Malley wasn't going to let the Giants leave by themselves, he had other plans for himself and the Giants.

[Bluesteve32]

OK, but what would have been the scenario if the Brooklyn has the stadium built. Would the Giants been able to go, then. I don't think even O'Money could have kept the Giants in town since they were losing money. Stoneham would have gotten permission, eventually.

As you can tell, I am no fan of Walter O'Money, I mean O'Malley. He pulled the wool over all the Angelinos eyes except the old time Angel fans, we hate his guts, too.

[DODGER DEB]

Originally Posted by Bluesteve32

OK, but what would have been the scenario if the Brooklyn has the stadium built. Would the Giants been able to go, then. I don't think even O'Money could have kept the Giants in town since they were losing money. Stoneham would have gotten permission, eventually.

As you can tell, I am no fan of Walter O'Money, I mean O'Malley. He pulled the wool over all the Angelinos eyes except the old time Angel fans, we hate his guts, too.

IF WE had gotten a new ballpark, the Giants would have been able to go to Minneapolis...which wouldn't have been the worst thing. The "Big O" was the only owner holding up the Giants move to Minneapolis, so sooner or later he would have given his "OK", providing he got what he wanted from Brooklyn...a new ballpark in Downtown Brooklyn!

c.

[Bluesteve32]

I tell you, build then a stadium now, break the hearts of all those LA fans (tunabout is fair play), so McCourt can biuld his luxury condos in Chavez Ravine.

Regarding the Giants, that is what I thought. That would have produced another whole new scenario for the Twins may still be in Washington and that would have left the whole West Coast to the American League.

Funny, neither San Francisco nor Los Angeles has major league stadiums ready. Seattle did not have a major league facility until the Kingdome was built, for the Pilots had to play in Sicks Stadium.

Originally Posted by Bluesteve32

I tell you, build then a stadium now, break the hearts of all those LA fans (tunabout is fair play), so McCourt can biuld his luxury condos in Chavez Ravine.

Regarding the Giants, that is what I thought. That would have produced another whole new scenario for the Twins may still be in Washington and that would have left the whole West Coast to the American League.

Funny, neither San Francisco nor Los Angeles has major league stadiums ready. Seattle did not have a major league facility until the Kingdome was built, for the Pilots had to play in Sicks Stadium.

My feeling is that if the Giants had moved to Minneapolis and the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn, Griffith would have moved the Senators to LA and the expansion team that was awarded to LA would have gone to Houston.