Ted Simmons

[pjwvolk]

should ted "simba" simmons be in the hall? he was the second best catcher in the 70's (next to Bench) and his career numbers are better than a HOFer, Carter. he consistently had a .300 or higher AVG, and hit 20+ homers 3 or 4 times. isnt that Hall worthy?

[RuthMayBond]

Simmons is way behind Carter in PO, A, leading league in either, and not quite so good in SB allowed/CS, FWIW

[DoubleX]

At the very least, Simmons deserved a lot more consideration than the one and done treatment he received from the writers.

[pjwvolk]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

Simmons is way behind Carter in PO, A, leading league in either, and not quite so good in SB allowed/CS, FWIW

i am not talking about defense here, most will say that simmons lacked a little in the defensive category, but simmons should make it just because of his offensive ability. he at least deserved to last more than one year of hall of fame voting.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by pjwvolk

i am not talking about defense here, most will say that simmons lacked a little in the defensive category, but simmons should make it just because of his offensive ability. he at least deserved to last more than one year of hall of fame voting.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone around here who would argue that point. Simmons is at the top of the list of writer snubs.

He was a fine player, a local guy I wish the Tigers would have had, although Lance Parrish was not much of a drop off.

[julusnc]

I would easily vote for Simmons for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[RuthMayBond]

I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).

[nightal]

CAREER
MODERN (1900-2003)
C
PLATE APPEARANCES >= 5000

AVERAGE AVG
1 Mickey Cochrane .320
2 Mike Piazza .319
3 Bill Dickey .313
4 Ernie Lombardi .306
5 Ivan Rodriguez .304
6 Manny Sanguillen .298
7 Gabby Hartnett .297
8 Ted Simmons .292
9 Thurman Munson .292
10 Wally Schang .288
11 Yogi Berra .285
12 Walker Cooper .285
13 Jimmie Wilson .284
14 Rick Ferrell .281
15 Muddy Ruel .275
16 Tim McCarver .272
17 Terry Steinbach .271
18 Carlton Fisk .269
19 Johnny Bench .267
20 Gus Mancuso .265

C

BPA BPA
1 Mike Piazza .581
2 Mickey Cochrane .557
3 Bill Dickey .532
4 Gabby Hartnett .531
5 Johnny Bench .514
6 Yogi Berra .510
7 Wally Schang .503
8 Carlton Fisk .496
9 Ivan Rodriguez .491
10 Darrell Porter .474
11 Gary Carter .470
12 Walker Cooper .470
13 Ted Simmons .468
14 Ernie Lombardi .460
15 Lance Parrish .457
16 Frankie Hayes .451
17 Bill Freehan .449
18 Sherm Lollar .448
19 Rick Ferrell .441
20 Terry Steinbach .433

C

DOUBLES 2B
1 Ted Simmons 413
2 Carlton Fisk 398
3 Gabby Hartnett 396
4 Ivan Rodriguez 380
5 Gary Carter 351
6 Bill Dickey 343
7 Johnny Bench 342
8 Mickey Cochrane 333
9 Rick Ferrell 324
10 Benito Santiago 312
11 Yogi Berra 310
12 Lance Parrish 305
13 Bob Boone 303
14 Tony Pena 298
15 Ernie Lombardi 277
16 Terry Steinbach 273
17 Luke Sewell 272
18 Mike Piazza 264
19 Rollie Hemsley 257
20 Jimmie Wilson 252

C

HITS H
1 Carlton Fisk 2269
2 Ted Simmons 2116
3 Yogi Berra 2043
4 Bill Dickey 1969
5 Gary Carter 1956
6 Gabby Hartnett 1912
7 Ivan Rodriguez 1875
8 Bob Boone 1838
9 Johnny Bench 1811
10 Ernie Lombardi 1792
11 Lance Parrish 1782
12 Benito Santiago 1776
13 Mike Piazza 1708
14 Rick Ferrell 1692
15 Tony Pena 1687
16 Mickey Cochrane 1652
17 Thurman Munson 1558
18 Al Lopez 1547
19 Jim Sundberg 1493
20 Bill Freehan 1459


C

HOMERUNS HR
1 Carlton Fisk 366
2 Mike Piazza 358
3 Johnny Bench 356
4 Yogi Berra 336
5 Lance Parrish 324
6 Gary Carter 307
7 Roy Campanella 242
8 Gabby Hartnett 236
9 Ivan Rodriguez 231
10 Ted Simmons 222
11 Javier Lopez 214
12 Benito Santiago 211
13 Bill Dickey 202
14 Todd Hundley 199
15 Ernie Lombardi 190
16 Bill Freehan 182
17 Darrell Porter 181
18 Del Crandall 179
19 Walker Cooper 173
20 Andy Seminick 164

C

ISOLATED POWER ISO
1 Mike Piazza .252
2 Johnny Bench .215
3 Yogi Berra .198
4 Gabby Hartnett .192
5 Lance Parrish .188
6 Carlton Fisk .188
7 Ivan Rodriguez .184
8 Walker Cooper .178
9 Gary Carter .178
10 Bill Dickey .173
11 Darrell Porter .161
12 Ted Simmons .161
13 Mickey Cochrane .158
14 Ernie Lombardi .154
15 Benito Santiago .152
16 Del Crandall .150
17 Terry Steinbach .149
18 Bill Freehan .147
19 Frankie Hayes .141
20 Sherm Lollar .138

C

OPS OPS
1 Mike Piazza .959
2 Mickey Cochrane .897
3 Bill Dickey .868
4 Gabby Hartnett .858
5 Ivan Rodriguez .832
6 Yogi Berra .832
7 Johnny Bench .826
8 Ernie Lombardi .818
9 Ted Simmons .808
10 Wally Schang .800
11 Carlton Fisk .799
12 Walker Cooper .796
13 Gary Carter .773
14 Darrell Porter .762
15 Sherm Lollar .759
16 Thurman Munson .756
17 Lance Parrish .753
18 Terry Steinbach .746
19 Bill Freehan .745
20 Frankie Hayes .744


C

OWP OWP
1 Mike Piazza .704
2 Bill Dickey .644
3 Mickey Cochrane .643
4 Yogi Berra .629
5 Gabby Hartnett .610
6 Johnny Bench .607
7 Wally Schang .592
8 Ted Simmons .591
9 Carlton Fisk .575
10 Ernie Lombardi .575
11 Thurman Munson .571
12 Darrell Porter .567
13 Gary Carter .557
14 Bill Freehan .547
15 Walker Cooper .543
16 Ivan Rodriguez .534
17 Tim McCarver .515
18 Sherm Lollar .508
19 Manny Sanguillen .504
20 Mike Scioscia .498
C

RBI RBI
1 Yogi Berra 1369
2 Carlton Fisk 1288
3 Johnny Bench 1259
4 Bill Dickey 1209
5 Ted Simmons 1195
6 Gabby Hartnett 1179
7 Gary Carter 1157
8 Mike Piazza 1107
9 Lance Parrish 1070
10 Ernie Lombardi 990
11 Ivan Rodriguez 914
12 Benito Santiago 897
13 Roy Campanella 856
14 Mickey Cochrane 832
15 Bob Boone 826
16 Walker Cooper 812
17 Sherm Lollar 808
18 Darrell Porter 805
19 Terry Steinbach 745
20 Rick Ferrell 734 C

RCAA RCAA
1 Mike Piazza 433
2 Bill Dickey 339
3 Yogi Berra 312
4 Mickey Cochrane 303
5 Gabby Hartnett 254
6 Johnny Bench 247
7 Ted Simmons 217
8 Carlton Fisk 216
9 Gene Tenace 160
10 Joe Torre 159
11 Wally Schang 152
12 Gary Carter 142
13 Ernie Lombardi 138
14 Roy Campanella 135
15 Roger Bresnahan 132
16 Darrell Porter 123
17 Smoky Burgess 118
18 Mickey Tettleton 115
19 Thurman Munson 113
T20 Chris Hoiles 99
T20 Jason Kendall 99

C

RCAP RCAP
1 Mike Piazza 528
2 Bill Dickey 473
3 Yogi Berra 430
4 Mickey Cochrane 425
5 Gabby Hartnett 364
6 Carlton Fisk 360
7 Johnny Bench 347
8 Ted Simmons 321
9 Gary Carter 251
10 Wally Schang 249
11 Ivan Rodriguez 244
12 Ernie Lombardi 241
13 Joe Torre 222
14 Roger Bresnahan 214
15 Roy Campanella 206
16 Smoky Burgess 194
17 Darrell Porter 193
18 Jorge Posada 181
19 Jason Kendall 178
T20 Gene Tenace 177
T20 Mickey Tettleton 177

C

RUNS CREATED RC
1 Carlton Fisk 1320
2 Bill Dickey 1223
3 Yogi Berra 1214
4 Gabby Hartnett 1179
5 Mike Piazza 1130
6 Ted Simmons 1116
7 Johnny Bench 1109
8 Mickey Cochrane 1104
9 Gary Carter 1090
10 Ivan Rodriguez 972
11 Lance Parrish 924
12 Ernie Lombardi 910
13 Rick Ferrell 900
14 Darrell Porter 816
15 Benito Santiago 806
16 Wally Schang 805
17 Bob Boone 783
18 Bill Freehan 779
19 Sherm Lollar 775
20 Roy Campanella 758 C

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Mike Piazza 7.85
2 Mickey Cochrane 7.73
3 Bill Dickey 7.21
4 Gabby Hartnett 6.57
5 Yogi Berra 6.15
6 Wally Schang 6.04
7 Ivan Rodriguez 5.69
8 Johnny Bench 5.69
9 Ernie Lombardi 5.64
10 Ted Simmons 5.49
11 Carlton Fisk 5.47
12 Walker Cooper 5.29
13 Rick Ferrell 5.24
14 Darrell Porter 5.14
15 Gary Carter 5.04
16 Sherm Lollar 4.97 C

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Mike Piazza 7.85
2 Mickey Cochrane 7.73
3 Bill Dickey 7.21
4 Gabby Hartnett 6.57
5 Yogi Berra 6.15
6 Wally Schang 6.04
7 Ivan Rodriguez 5.69
8 Johnny Bench 5.69
9 Ernie Lombardi 5.64
10 Ted Simmons 5.49
11 Carlton Fisk 5.47
12 Walker Cooper 5.29
13 Rick Ferrell 5.24
14 Darrell Porter 5.14
15 Gary Carter 5.04
16 Sherm Lollar 4.97
17 Frankie Hayes 4.91
18 Thurman Munson 4.82
19 Bill Freehan 4.79 C

SECONDARY AVERAGE SEC
1 Mike Piazza .364
2 Johnny Bench .339
3 Mickey Cochrane .328
4 Darrell Porter .324
5 Gabby Hartnett .304
6 Carlton Fisk .295
7 Yogi Berra .291
8 Wally Schang .287
9 Bill Dickey .282
10 Gary Carter .281
11 Lance Parrish .274
12 Frankie Hayes .269
13 Sherm Lollar .265
14 Ted Simmons .258
15 Bill Freehan .251
16 Ivan Rodriguez .249
17 Walker Cooper .247
18 Rick Dempsey .240
19 John Roseboro .237
20 Butch Wynegar .236

C

TOTAL AVERAGE TA
1 Mike Piazza .955
2 Mickey Cochrane .947
3 Bill Dickey .857
4 Gabby Hartnett .845
5 Wally Schang .822
6 Johnny Bench .798
7 Yogi Berra .791
8 Carlton Fisk .763
9 Ivan Rodriguez .761
10 Ted Simmons .745
11 Darrell Porter .744
12 Ernie Lombardi .734
13 Gary Carter .721
14 Walker Cooper .716
15 Sherm Lollar .714
16 Rick Ferrell .706
17 Frankie Hayes .692
18 Bill Freehan .691
19 Lance Parrish .680
20 Thurman Munson .668

C

TOTAL BASES TB
1 Carlton Fisk 3855
2 Yogi Berra 3459
3 Gary Carter 3288
4 Ted Simmons 3281
5 Johnny Bench 3265
6 Gabby Hartnett 3144
7 Lance Parrish 3113
8 Bill Dickey 3062
9 Mike Piazza 3058
10 Ivan Rodriguez 3010
11 Benito Santiago 2801
12 Ernie Lombardi 2693
13 Bob Boone 2508
14 Mickey Cochrane 2470
15 Tony Pena 2360
16 Bill Freehan 2289
17 Terry Steinbach 2254
18 Darrell Porter 2211 C

WALKS BB
1 Rick Ferrell 931
2 Darrell Porter 875
3 Mickey Cochrane 857
4 Carlton Fisk 839
5 Johnny Bench 813
6 Gary Carter 776
7 Wally Schang 745
8 Ted Simmons 720
9 Gabby Hartnett 703
10 Jim Sundberg 699
11 Bill Dickey 678
12 Sherm Lollar 671
13 Yogi Berra 669
14 Bob Boone 663
15 Ray Schalk 638
16 Mickey Tettleton 635
17 Butch Wynegar 626
18 Lance Parrish 612
19 Muddy Ruel 606
20 Mike Piazza 598

There is the batting side of it. I'll do a study after the OU game tonight.
If someone else wants to do defense,great.

He IS a HOFer.


Ok, using the old 20pts. for 1st, down to 1pt for 20th.
here goes:

291-Mike Piazza
287-Bill Dickey*
285-Gabby Hartnett*
281-Yogi Berra*
264-Carlton Fisk*
263-Johnny Bench*
256-Mickey Cochrane*
233-Ted Simmons
196-Gary Carter*
193-Ivan Rodriguez
157-Ernie Lombardi*
149-Wally Schang
123-Darrell Porter
112-Lance Parrish
102-Rick Ferrell*
82-Walker Cooper
60-Benito Santiago
52-Sherm Lollar
46-Bob Boone
41-Bill Freehan

*-Hall of Famer


Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez will be Hall of Famers when eligible, leaving Ted Simmons alone among the top 10 not enshrined.

Simmons, offensively, matches up very well with the HOFers.

al

[J W]

That particular list shows a sharp dropoff from Simmons to Carter, and from Rodriguez to Lombardi...

I consider Simmons right on that borderline, or rather that's where he should be. He would be in my personal HOF, because I feel that some semblance of continuity should be held in numbers thoughout the positions (C is second scarcest behind 3B in the Hall, and even then, several of them are iffy picks).

[santotohof]

Yes he should.He was overshadowed by Bench and played during a time of fine catchers,Sanguillen,Fisk, Munson etc but doggone it he could flat hit and steady. I posted similar to this last year and also believe Al Belle should be shown in.

[pjwvolk]

what do you think (poll version this time)

[leecemark]

--"Of course" is stronger than I would be likely to phase it, but his cumlative hitting record as a catcher is right up near the top. He was an okay defensive catcher as a young player, although he fell off pretty hard as he aged. He, Joe Torre and Bill Freehan are the three best catchers not in and it wouldn't be hard to pick three worse current Coopertown catchers to trade out for them if that was the way these things are done. I think Simmons will eventually get picked by the VC.

[DoubleX]

I don't think anyone will ever again be picked by the VC under its present format.

[julusnc]

Ted Simmons was a great hitter and catcher considering the era in which he played.

[STLCards2]

Simmons had the most hits of any catcher...ever. His defense is underatted, and well, he is a Cardinal. Enough for me.

[RuthMayBond]

Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.

[DoubleX]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.

I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?

[The Commissioner]

Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.

[moviegeekjan]

Originally Posted by The Commissioner

Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.

World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.

[therealnod]

Originally Posted by moviegeekjan

World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.

In Bill James' This Time Let's Not Eat the Bones James cites Simmons' unwillingness to move out from behind the plate.

If Whitey Herzog didn't have the guts to run Ted Simmons out of St. Louis, he might as well have quit on the spot. Because if he didn't, from that moment on he was not the man-a-ger of anything.

The man-a-ger thing is from an earlier reference in the essay to the movie Ragtime.

Enjoy the Bill James reference Commissioner.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by DoubleX

I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?

Do you believe Bench has a decent Hall of Fame case?

[AG2004]

Since I did a Keltner List for Freehan, I might as well do one for Ted Simmons.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was the best player for St. Louis from 1975 to 1978, but the level of competition wasn’t that high. Sometimes he was the team’s only all-star.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

No. Being in the same league as Johnny Bench didn’t help.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Not really – he was above average in 1982, but didn’t have 20 win shares.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes, for a few seasons.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Similarity Scores: Alan Trammell, Carlton Fisk, Joe Torre, Lou Whitaker, Gary Carter, Joe Cronin, Barry Larkin, Ryne Sandberg, Buddy Bell, Bobby Doerr. Half are in, and a couple more could be, so I’ll say yes.

Catchers, Career Win Shares (+/-30): Carter 337, Hartnett 325, Simmons 315, Torre 315, Dickey 314. Yes; Simmons is tied for seventh.

Top 3 seasons, win shares (+/-10): Campanella 94, Fisk 94, Freehan 90, Cochrane 89, Howard 89, Dickey 87, Simmons 86, Bresnahan 83, Daulton 83, Tenace 83, Hartnett 80. Six out of ten.

Top 5 consecutive seasons, win shares (+/- 15): Cochrane 142, Carter 141, Campanella 134, Dickey 132, Tenace 127, Simmons 127, Freehan 126, Torre 126, Howard 119, Bresnahan 116, Hartnett 114. Simmon’s near the cut-off line, but he’s tied for eighth place overall.

Win Shares per 162 games (+/- 2.5): Torre 23.10, Haller 22.41, Daulton 22.19, Schang 21.57, Simmons 20.78, Howard 20.49, Parrish 20.21, Porter 20.18, Tettleton 20.07, Steinbach 19.40, Lollar 19.33, Lombardi 19.06, Cooper 19.03, Duke Farrell 18,97, Roseboro 18.50, Crandall 18.43. Nope.

I’d give Simmons a qualified yes here.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Black Ink 0, Gray Ink 95, HOF Standards 44.5. Only one post-1920 HOF catcher has a black ink score above 8. Simmons is ahead of eight of the nine post-1920 HOF catchers in Gray Ink, however. HOF Standards is competitive, and he’s ahead of three of the nine; for catchers, a score of 40 is usually good enough for admission. So I’d say yes.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really. He was about average defensively at his peak, and truly bad defensive catchers usually don’t manage to play 1,771 games behind the plate.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

I’d say Santop and Mackey are better. Among eligible ML catchers, he’s in a close race with Torre and Freehan. Bill James lists him as the best eligible major league catcher who is not in the Hall of Fame.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

His top finish in MVP voting was sixth, in 1975. He had one season with 30 win shares, and an additional three with 28.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Simmons was named an All-Star eight times, which would put him on the HOF borderline.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I don’t know. If you added some average players to the Cardinals, and gave them average pitching, they could have made a run for it.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not really, for the last three of these questions. However, he is the career leader in hits and doubles among major league catcher. Simmons made the top 100 lists in career hits and career doubles; he is the only catcher to make the top 100 in either list.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I know.

Looking over the evidence, I would say Simmons belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[Lindseynelson]

Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop

[KCGHOST]

Simmons, a superb hitting catcher, is usually considered to have been a marginall defender. Simmons and Wally Schang are very comparable catchers who are on the outside looking in. Not sure either is an HoFer, but they have a case.

[candy curveball cummings]

Originally Posted by Lindseynelson

Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop

I agree. I feel Simmons and Torre are the most overlooked catchers. I'd probably give the edge offensively to Torre, but Simmons caught 800 more game than Joe did.

Statistics [I've bolded all stats that Ted Simmons leads in compared to these two Hall of Fame Catchers]:

Gary Carter-
.262 BA | .335 OBP | .439 SLG | 115 OPS+ | 5.10 RC/27
2092 Hits | 324 Home Runs | 1225 RBI | 1025 Runs

Carlton Fisk-
.269 BA | .341 OBP | .437 SLG | 117 OPS+ | 5.37 RC/27
2356 Hits | 376 Home Runs | 1330 RBI | 1276 Runs

Ted Simmons-
.285 BA | .348 OBP | .437 SLG | 119 OPS+ | 5.48 RC/27
2472 Hits | 248 Home Runs | 1389 RBI | 1074 Runs