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#1
01-07-2005, 03:41 AM
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Does Mattingly deserve induction?
Lifetime BA- .307
If his back hadn't gone out it would have been a lot higher. 1984- .343 1985- .324 1986- .352 1987- .327 1988- .311 1989- .303 Also one of the finest first basemen of all time. Lifetime fielding percentage = .996 9 gold gloves in 10 years. In the only postseason action he ever saw, in 1995, against Seattle, he batted .417. Also a 6-time All-Star. His fielding percentage puts him up there with Gehrig. He is the 2nd best Yankee 1B of all time behind Gehrig. Induct him. 
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#2
01-07-2005, 06:02 AM
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Let's see how he measured against contemporaries:
Mattingly played from 1982-1995 CAREER 1982-1995 Minimum 4000 Plate Appearances AVERAGE 1 Tony Gwynn .336 2 Wade Boggs .334 3 Kirby Puckett .318 4 Paul Molitor .308 5 Don Mattingly .307 6 Mark Grace .306 7 Mike Greenwell .303 8 Will Clark .302 9 Julio Franco .301 10 John Kruk .300 BPA 1 Barry Bonds .637 2 Rickey Henderson .621 3 Eric Davis .583 4 Fred McGriff .581 5 Darryl Strawberry .577 6 Mark McGwire .572 7 Mike Schmidt .568 8 Jose Canseco .559 9 Kevin Mitchell .557 10 Tim Raines .554 DOUBLES 1 Wade Boggs 489 2 Cal Ripken 447 3 Don Mattingly 442 4 Kirby Puckett 414 5 Tim Wallach 413 6 Paul Molitor 410 7 George Brett 394 T8 Tony Gwynn 384 T8 Eddie Murray 384 10 Robin Yount 375 EXTRA BASE HITS 1 Cal Ripken 816 2 Eddie Murray 753 3 Andre Dawson 745 4 Joe Carter 713 5 Tim Wallach 690 6 Don Mattingly 684 7 Dave Winfield 682 8 Kirby Puckett 678 9 Gary Gaetti 671 10 Paul Molitor 670 HITS 1 Wade Boggs 2541 2 Tony Gwynn 2401 3 Cal Ripken 2366 4 Kirby Puckett 2304 5 Paul Molitor 2255 6 Eddie Murray 2248 7 Brett Butler 2211 8 Tim Raines 2199 9 Don Mattingly 2153 10 Ryne Sandberg 2132 HOMERUNS 1 Eddie Murray 346 T2 Joe Carter 327 T2 Cal Ripken 327 4 Andre Dawson 326 5 Dale Murphy 306 6 Jose Canseco 300 7 Dave Winfield 298 8 Darryl Strawberry 297 T9 Kent Hrbek 292 T9 Barry Bonds 292 ISOLATED POWER 1 Mark McGwire .271 2 Barry Bonds .255 3 Fred McGriff .250 4 Mike Schmidt .246 5 Darryl Strawberry .246 6 Jose Canseco .245 7 Kevin Mitchell .243 8 Cecil Fielder .240 9 Matt Williams .237 10 Danny Tartabull .223 OPS 1 Barry Bonds .938 2 Fred McGriff .921 3 Mike Schmidt .899 4 Mark McGwire .892 5 Kevin Mitchell .890 6 Wade Boggs .877 7 Will Clark .877 8 Danny Tartabull .869 9 Jack Clark .868 10 Jose Canseco .867 OWP 1 Barry Bonds .747 2 Rickey Henderson .728 3 Fred McGriff .700 4 Mark McGwire .696 5 Will Clark .694 6 Wade Boggs .694 7 Kevin Mitchell .682 8 Mike Schmidt .681 9 Pedro Guerrero .674 10 Jack Clark .673 RBI 1 Eddie Murray 1344 2 Cal Ripken 1267 3 Andre Dawson 1190 4 Joe Carter 1173 5 Harold Baines 1171 6 Dave Winfield 1139 7 Chili Davis 1100 8 Don Mattingly 1099 9 Kirby Puckett 1085 10 Kent Hrbek 1079 RCAA 1 Rickey Henderson 614 2 Wade Boggs 556 3 Barry Bonds 527 4 Tim Raines 463 T5 Paul Molitor 420 T5 Frank Thomas 420 7 Eddie Murray 377 8 Tony Gwynn 376 9 Will Clark 365 10 Fred McGriff 352 RCAP 1 Wade Boggs 557 2 Rickey Henderson 555 3 Barry Bonds 453 4 Cal Ripken 391 5 Tim Raines 364 6 Lou Whitaker 357 7 Paul Molitor 352 8 Frank Thomas 346 9 Alan Trammell 332 10 Tony Gwynn 309 RUNS 1 Rickey Henderson 1470 2 Tim Raines 1305 3 Wade Boggs 1287 4 Cal Ripken 1271 5 Brett Butler 1268 6 Paul Molitor 1258 7 Ryne Sandberg 1177 8 Eddie Murray 1132 9 Lou Whitaker 1119 10 Robin Yount 1083 RUNS CREATED 1 Wade Boggs 1500 2 Rickey Henderson 1451 3 Tim Raines 1390 4 Eddie Murray 1354 5 Paul Molitor 1333 6 Cal Ripken 1310 7 Tony Gwynn 1236 T8 Brett Butler 1203 T8 Ryne Sandberg 1203 10 Kirby Puckett 1192 RUNS CREATED/GAME 1 Barry Bonds 8.23 2 Rickey Henderson 7.63 3 Wade Boggs 7.51 4 Fred McGriff 7.41 5 Will Clark 7.08 6 Mike Schmidt 7.00 7 Mark McGwire 6.82 8 Kevin Mitchell 6.80 9 Tim Raines 6.75 10 Jack Clark 6.68 SECONDARY AVERAGE 1 Barry Bonds .487 2 Rickey Henderson .474 3 Mark McGwire .454 4 Jack Clark .435 5 Eric Davis .432 6 Mike Schmidt .423 7 Fred McGriff .420 8 Darryl Strawberry .418 9 Mickey Tettleton .411 10 Jose Canseco .382 TOTAL AVERAGE 1 Barry Bonds 1.042 2 Rickey Henderson 1.014 3 Fred McGriff .951 4 Mike Schmidt .926 5 Mark McGwire .925 6 Jack Clark .905 7 Eric Davis .900 8 Tim Raines .891 9 Darryl Strawberry .889 10 Wade Boggs .884 TOTAL BASES 1 Cal Ripken 3878 2 Eddie Murray 3716 3 Kirby Puckett 3453 4 Wade Boggs 3445 5 Andre Dawson 3418 6 Paul Molitor 3370 7 Ryne Sandberg 3360 8 Harold Baines 3323 9 Don Mattingly 3301 10 Tony Gwynn 3206 TRIPLES 1 Brett Butler 124 2 Willie Wilson 110 3 Tim Raines 102 4 Juan Samuel 95 5 Andy Van Slyke 91 6 Tony Fernandez 89 7 Vince Coleman 88 8 Willie McGee 87 9 Robin Yount 83 10 Tony Gwynn 80 WALKS 1 Rickey Henderson 1335 2 Wade Boggs 1213 3 Tim Raines 1083 4 Brett Butler 1059 5 Tony Phillips 974 6 Eddie Murray 973 7 Jack Clark 972 8 Lou Whitaker 941 9 Chili Davis 935 10 Barry Bonds 931 This shows the obvious answer is NO. Great guy. "100% ballplayer, 0% ********"-- Bill James.....But, not a Hall of Famer. Remember, these are JUST his contemporaries. al
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal? Last edited by nightal; 01-07-2005 at 08:09 AM.
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#3
01-07-2005, 07:24 AM
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Sandberg beats him in runs, runs created, and total bases.
Mattingly beats Sandberg in batting average, fielding percentage, extra base hits, hits, doubles, and RBI. He also had better stats in his MVP year(85) than Sandberg had in his MVP year(84). If his back had not gone out he would have been a guaranteed first ballot Hal of Famer, based on his stats from 1983-1989. He averaged .310 BA during this time. HIS LIFETIME BA IS .307. It would have been a lot higher had his back not screwed him. Mattingly had a higher career on base percentage, and his career batting average is .22 higher. All I'm saying is that if you let Sandberg in, you have to let Mattingly and his 9 gold gloves at first base in as well. From 1984-1987 his OPS averaged .940. .940. His lifetime OPS is considerably higher than Sandberg's, and as I said before, Mattingly has a higher lifetime fielding percentage. Mattingly deserves induction.
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#5
01-07-2005, 07:27 AM
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There are at least fourteen 1B with a better OPS+ AND more plate apps. And at least one with close OPS+ and way more PA. And at least six more with better OPS+ and close to Mattingly's PA.
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#6
01-07-2005, 07:28 AM
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#7
01-07-2005, 08:10 AM
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What should it be based on?? World Championships,.. what?. He DOES NOT measure up against players of his era/generation; what else do you need to know?
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal?
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#8
01-07-2005, 08:22 AM
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Ok, let's just do the firstbasemen 1982-1995
4000 Plate Appearances minimum 1B AVERAGE AVG 1 Don Mattingly .308 2 Mark Grace .306 3 Will Clark .302 4 Rafael Palmeiro .301 5 Keith Hernandez .293 6 Wally Joyner .290 7 Eddie Murray .289 8 Fred McGriff .287 9 Kent Hrbek .283 10 Andres Galarraga .283 1B BPA BPA 1 Fred McGriff .582 2 Mark McGwire .574 3 Will Clark .542 4 Rafael Palmeiro .529 5 Kent Hrbek .519 6 Eddie Murray .516 7 Andres Galarraga .494 8 Don Mattingly .484 9 Wally Joyner .481 10 Willie Upshaw .479 1B DOUBLES 2B 1 Don Mattingly 442 2 Eddie Murray 342 3 Kent Hrbek 307 4 Will Clark 300 5 Wally Joyner 290 6 Andres Galarraga 267 7 Mark Grace 261 8 Pete O'Brien 243 9 Rafael Palmeiro 236 10 Fred McGriff 213 1B EXTRA BASE HITS EBH 1 Don Mattingly 684 2 Eddie Murray 672 3 Kent Hrbek 617 4 Will Clark 547 5 Fred McGriff 499 6 Andres Galarraga 490 7 Wally Joyner 467 8 Mark McGwire 428 9 Rafael Palmeiro 426 10 Pete O'Brien 421 1B HITS H 1 Don Mattingly 2151 2 Eddie Murray 1997 3 Kent Hrbek 1733 4 Will Clark 1543 5 Wally Joyner 1481 6 Andres Galarraga 1371 7 Pete O'Brien 1351 8 Mark Grace 1333 9 Fred McGriff 1210 10 Keith Hernandez 1200 1B HOMERUNS HR 1 Eddie Murray 308 2 Kent Hrbek 292 3 Mark McGwire 274 4 Fred McGriff 269 5 Cecil Fielder 223 6 Don Mattingly 222 7 Will Clark 205 8 Andres Galarraga 200 9 Glenn Davis 177 10 Rafael Palmeiro 169 1B ISOLATED POWER ISO 1 Mark McGwire .272 2 Fred McGriff .250 3 Kent Hrbek .199 4 Rafael Palmeiro .197 5 Will Clark .195 6 Eddie Murray .190 7 Andres Galarraga .188 8 Don Mattingly .164 9 Willie Upshaw .162 10 Wally Joyner .157 1B OPS OPS 1 Fred McGriff .924 2 Mark McGwire .895 3 Will Clark .877 4 Rafael Palmeiro .868 5 Kent Hrbek .850 6 Eddie Murray .847 7 Don Mattingly .831 8 Mark Grace .814 9 Wally Joyner .807 10 Andres Galarraga .805 1B OWP OWP 1 Fred McGriff .704 2 Mark McGwire .700 3 Will Clark .694 4 Rafael Palmeiro .655 5 Eddie Murray .654 6 Keith Hernandez .638 7 Don Mattingly .626 8 Kent Hrbek .619 9 Mark Grace .606 10 Wally Joyner .590 1B RBI RBI 1 Eddie Murray 1186 2 Don Mattingly 1098 3 Kent Hrbek 1079 4 Will Clark 881 5 Wally Joyner 789 6 Andres Galarraga 761 7 Fred McGriff 760 8 Mark McGwire 738 9 Pete O'Brien 696 10 Cecil Fielder 694 1B RCAA RCAA 1 Eddie Murray 366 2 Will Clark 365 3 Frank Thomas 345 4 Fred McGriff 336 5 Don Mattingly 295 6 Mark McGwire 275 7 Kent Hrbek 262 8 Rafael Palmeiro 225 9 Jeff Bagwell 216 10 Keith Hernandez 189 1B RCAP RCAP 1 Frank Thomas 282 2 Will Clark 256 3 Fred McGriff 247 4 Eddie Murray 225 5 Mark McGwire 189 6 Jeff Bagwell 170 7 Jack Clark 145 8 Don Mattingly 130 9 Keith Hernandez 125 10 Kent Hrbek 123 1B RUNS R T1 Don Mattingly 1007 T1 Eddie Murray 1007 3 Kent Hrbek 898 4 Will Clark 845 5 Fred McGriff 729 6 Wally Joyner 725 7 Andres Galarraga 669 8 Rafael Palmeiro 642 T9 Mark McGwire 611 T9 Pete O'Brien 611 1B RUNS CREATED RC 1 Eddie Murray 1218 2 Don Mattingly 1160 3 Kent Hrbek 1082 4 Will Clark 986 5 Fred McGriff 876 6 Wally Joyner 822 7 Andres Galarraga 742 8 Rafael Palmeiro 733 9 Mark Grace 728 10 Mark McGwire 726 1B RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G 1 Fred McGriff 7.45 2 Will Clark 7.08 3 Mark McGwire 6.88 4 Rafael Palmeiro 6.69 5 Eddie Murray 6.32 6 Kent Hrbek 6.26 7 Mark Grace 6.12 8 Don Mattingly 6.09 9 Keith Hernandez 6.01 10 Wally Joyner 5.74 1B SECONDARY AVERAGE SEC 1 Mark McGwire .458 2 Fred McGriff .417 3 Kent Hrbek .337 4 Eddie Murray .326 5 Will Clark .324 6 Rafael Palmeiro .312 7 Willie Upshaw .279 8 Keith Hernandez .278 9 Wally Joyner .271 10 Pete O'Brien .263 1B TOTAL AVERAGE TA 1 Fred McGriff .953 2 Mark McGwire .931 3 Will Clark .883 4 Rafael Palmeiro .853 5 Kent Hrbek .834 6 Eddie Murray .832 7 Keith Hernandez .784 8 Mark Grace .782 9 Don Mattingly .777 10 Wally Joyner .767 1B TOTAL BASES TB 1 Eddie Murray 3307 2 Don Mattingly 3299 3 Kent Hrbek 2952 4 Will Clark 2542 5 Andres Galarraga 2284 6 Wally Joyner 2283 7 Fred McGriff 2264 8 Pete O'Brien 2108 9 Rafael Palmeiro 1983 10 Mark Grace 1896 1B TRIPLES 3B 1 Will Clark 42 2 Willie Upshaw 41 3 Mark Grace 28 4 Andres Galarraga 23 5 Eddie Murray 22 6 Rafael Palmeiro 21 T7 Don Mattingly 20 T7 Keith Hernandez 20 T7 Bill Buckner 20 T7 Pete O'Brien 20 1B WALKS BB 1 Eddie Murray 903 2 Kent Hrbek 833 3 Fred McGriff 684 4 Mark McGwire 669 5 Will Clark 645 T6 Pete O'Brien 609 T6 Keith Hernandez 609 8 Don Mattingly 588 9 Wally Joyner 560 10 Alvin Davis 544 He WAS one of the best firstbasemen of his time, offensively. If you count his Gold Gloves; he probably finishes only behind Murray, McGwire, Clark, Palmeiro and maybe, McGriff.
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal? Last edited by nightal; 01-07-2005 at 08:28 AM.
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#9
01-07-2005, 08:26 AM
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This tends to make Jake's point, but of course Mattingly is gonna look better if you restrict it to ONLY the exact years during Mattingly's career
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#10
01-07-2005, 08:28 AM
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What else do I need to know? Well, for 1 thing....more... Players are not in the HOF based just on how they are benchmarked by their contemporaries, there's more to it than that, for me at least. How does he match up to players in general historically? Is he an inovator? Fielding? not totally, but it does enter into the equation. What kind of impact or impression did he make/have? How was he viewed during his playng days? How was he viewed after his playing days? Etc?
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#11
01-07-2005, 08:29 AM
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I know, I know. I'm trying to give Mattingly the benefit of the doubt. But, it's not working for me.
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal?
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#12
01-07-2005, 08:34 AM
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1.-If you match Mattingly up against players other than the ones he played against- I can assure you, he will suffer more, in comparison. 2.-What exactly did Mattingly innovate? 3.-His strength is fielding, he matches up historically well. 4.-He was the Yankees best player during this time, for sure. But they only went to 1 Division Series (and lost) during his tenure. 5.-He was viewed as a damn fine ballplayer, that's what. But I never heard while he was active- "Future Hall of Famer" attached to his name. 6.-This I don't have an answer to. I'm sure very positive.
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal? Last edited by nightal; 01-07-2005 at 09:07 AM.
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#14
01-07-2005, 09:12 AM
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#16
01-07-2005, 09:41 AM
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#17
01-07-2005, 09:51 AM
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You bet he was highly regarded, I'm not arguing this.
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Waner, Mantle, Bench, Nightal? Last edited by nightal; 01-07-2005 at 10:09 AM.
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#19
01-07-2005, 10:41 AM
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A while ago, someone mentioned that Mattingly was only big to Yankees fans, and not so much to the rest of the baseball world. This could be why he hasn't gained enough votes to be elected, (or one of the many reasons.) Just thought I would put it out there. -Sasha
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“it is impossible to understand America without a thorough knowledge of baseball” -Mcafee
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#20
01-07-2005, 10:44 AM
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#21
01-07-2005, 10:52 AM
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He clearly seems to me a carbon copy of the Tony Oliva situation. Till about '89 I remember thinking of im as a shoo-in. But, his back problems just really hurt him.
But you're right, he might be in like Rizzuto, witht he VC.But, I don't see him getting much support otherwise. He just lost a lot of power, I think, after the late '80s.
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E-mail me at baseballwhatifs at aol.com for "If Baseball Integrated Early," other works. "Full House Chronology" at "Tanner Central" or via e-mail at fullhousechron (at) aol.com, with the help of many fans, thanks for the input
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#22
01-07-2005, 11:09 AM
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It's going to take something really special for a post free agency player to make it. The current members of the VC, i.e. currently living HOF'ers aren't going to be so quick to let someone new into their exclusive club unless they were overwhelming. Mattingly is a contemporary or had his day not long after the majority of these players were retired, so they all have seen him. It's a matter of how his peers saw him, and if he did enough in their eyes to convince them the writers made 15 years worth of mistakes. I'm not so sure the current lot (after only one election, mind you, so no pattern has truly been established) will fall all over themselves.
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RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man. RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man. RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed. Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
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#23
01-25-2007, 08:33 AM
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Mattingly is a guy with a following. He's the kind of guy that might get a whole lot of writer support in his last few seasons on the ballot. I doubt he'll make it, but you never know.
Mattingly was one of the greatest of the great for his peak years, 1984-87. His back problems started in 1988, and that was the beginning of the end. He lost his HR power, and never got it back. Mattingly is great in the sense that Al Rosen was great and Charlie Keller was great. They were all great, but all had back problems. They don't get slack for that; if your back isn't up to the job of playing baseball, it affects your ability to play the game, and it's part of your inherent makeup. It's not something that happened to you (Lyman Bostock) beyond your control. Al Rosen hit a much higher peak than Mattingly; he's ahead. Will Clark had more career value; he's ahead. The problem with Mattingly is the cases for the guys who are better than him, but still not in the HOF.
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"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness." NL President Ford Frick, 1947
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#24
01-25-2007, 08:42 AM
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Mattingly was regarded as a great hitter in his prime. SI once did a conversation between Ted Williams, Boggs and Mattingly about hitting. It's a great read if you can find it. (if I could, I'd post it or let people know where it's available.)
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#25
01-25-2007, 08:44 AM
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I loved Donnie BBall but his was a split career.
He was Lou Gherig for his first 5 years but because of his back he was a solid but not hallworthy Mark Grace, Keith Hernandez type for the second half of his pinstripe run I was thrilled to see him wake up the echoes in his only postseason shot. His defense was unmatched but he just could not turn on the ball anymore to continue those huge early numbers
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