Joe Carter?

[bluejaysfan93]

I think he should be in the Hall of Fame. What about you?

[The Commissioner]

I'd actually agree with you, but I have a feeling that you'd be hard pressed to find too many other members of this board that would concur with us.

I can definitely see their points, as well. His power numbers are excellent, but that .259 BA and .306 OBA don't help his case too much. People who never saw him play and are just looking at his raw numbers may forget, though, that he was one of the top power hitters in MLB for a long time. A lot of those numbers were also amassed with a miserable Indians ballclub. On the plus side of the ledger you have someone that collected 10 100+ RBI years and 6 30+HR seasons. On the negative side you have a guy that only batted .270 or more in a full season four times. His 400+ HRs, 1400+RBI, and 200+ SBs for his career are excellent numbers, but once again that BA looms large. He's got Killebrew and Reggie type numbers without comparable career totals. Once again, I'd say "yes", but I can definitely understand those that would say "no".

[bluejaysfan93]

I would love to see him get in. He is the Most Famous Blue Jay Ever. But not the best Player the Jays had. I belive that would be Clemmons. But Clemmons didnt spend much time here.

[MudvilleMike]

Joe Carter? Hell no!

The guy had power, but never walked and had a lousy BA so he didn't score much.

.771 OPS.

I'm surprised you just listed Clemens as better. Delgado is light years better than Carter. I'm praying that Henry will see the light and sign Delgado. What about Olerud? And how can you ignore Dave Stieb, a truly great pitcher? Soon we'll add Roy Halladay to the list. The Blue Jays have had a lot of great players.

[abacab]

An average-at-best defensive outfielder with an OBP 30 points below average?

Uh, no.

[Cougar]

I'm with Commish and BJF93. Carter is seriously underappreciated. Rate stats aren't everything -- Carter produced, year in and year out. He was one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball for a 15 year span. That's what Hall of Famers do.

And where did the notion come from that he was poor defensively? He wasn't a gold glover, but he was a perfectly good OF, who could handle all three positions and play 1b too. A fine baserunner too; a five tool guy. A team leader as well.

[bluejaysfan93]

Originally Posted by MudvilleMike

Joe Carter? Hell no!

The guy had power, but never walked and had a lousy BA so he didn't score much.

.771 OPS.

I'm surprised you just listed Clemens as better. Delgado is light years better than Carter. I'm praying that Henry will see the light and sign Delgado. What about Olerud? And how can you ignore Dave Stieb, a truly great pitcher? Soon we'll add Roy Halladay to the list. The Blue Jays have had a lot of great players.

Roy Halladay will still be around for another 2 years. Clemens I think is one of the best picthers of our time. I hate him though, I think he is a jerk but then again thats just me.

[MudvilleMike]

Originally Posted by Cougar

Rate stats aren't everything -- Carter produced, year in and year out. He was one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball for a 15 year span. That's what Hall of Famers do.

Right, Hall of Famers produce for many years. Unfortunately, Joe Carter didn't produce at that level. It's not all or nothing, just because a guy doesn't belong in the HOF doesn't mean that we can't appreciate his career. Most of my favorite players aren't in the HOF, but were outstanding players.

[Cougar]

Originally Posted by MudvilleMike

Right, Hall of Famers produce for many years. Unfortunately, Joe Carter didn't produce at that level. It's not all or nothing, just because a guy doesn't belong in the HOF doesn't mean that we can't appreciate his career. Most of my favorite players aren't in the HOF, but were outstanding players.

Well, I appreciate the appreciation of Carter's career, and understand where you're coming from, but I think we may have to agree to disagree.

Carter got 100 RBI seasons year after year, when they didn't grow on trees. He stole bases. He hit for power, hitting 396 home runs (most of these before the offensive eruption of 1994-5) and retiring while still productive (any number of teams would have signed him). He was the leader of and a key player -- arguably the best player, although probably second to Alomar, and perhaps Olerud in 1993 -- on the Blue Jay mini-dynasty of 1992-3. He had an impressive consecutive games streak.

They guy just looks like a Hall of Famer to me. I know his rate stats are poor, but they just aren't disqualifying in my opinion; his outstanding counting stats outweigh them.

[J W]

Originally Posted by Cougar

The guy just looks like a Hall of Famer to me. I know his rate stats are poor, but they just aren't disqualifying in my opinion; his outstanding counting stats outweigh them.

...but in terms of HOF standards, his counting stats aren't that outstanding. He has a pedestrian 2184 hits and his other major offensive stats all fall short of their respective milestones. Usually when this happens I turn to the rate stats.

If you take what he did in context of his era, it still doesn't look so hot for a corner outfielder. His Gray Ink score is a lowly 103... almost all of it due to his HRs (which filtered down to TB and XB hits) and RBI... with those stats tied to ABs/season, of which he was top ten 10 times.

Perhaps for the supporters of Carter, he is kind of like the Phil Rizzuto of outfielders? Not the best at putting up numbers, but a winner through-and-through? It's that intangible quality that keeps him on my radar; I don't rule him out. But, my answer is no.

[Cougar]

JW, we disagree?! This never happens!

His hit total is low, sure, but not so low as to be disqualifying or debilitating (sub-2000 hits starts raising questions for me). Same for doubles -- 400+ is fine for a slugger.

The counting stats that I'm talking about are HR and RBI. That's most of his offensive value, true, but it's a lot -- he's one punch-the-clock part-timer season (that he foreswore to be with his family after 1998) from 400+ HR and 1500+ RBI. Those are big numbers; as it is he's at 396 and 1445. Players with those sorts of numbers are generally HOF caliber players.

I would not claim that Carter is the best OF not in the Hall, or even claim he's close to it. There are several others I'd honor first. But taking him on his own merits, on an up-down vote, I put him in. I'm a little lonely in this, I know, but nonetheless here I am.

Oh, and I might as well mention that Joe had a few big moments in postseason play, particularly the World Series. (Y'all know what I'm talking about.) That's some serious extra credit in my book.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by bluejaysfan93

I would love to see him get in. He is the Most Famous Blue Jay Ever. But not the best Player the Jays had. I belive that would be Clemmons. But Clemmons didnt spend much time here.

Greatest player the Blue Jays ever had? Easy. Rickey Henderson.

[Zito75]

Joe Carter? A good player, yes. An outstanding player? Maybe one or 2 years. The World Series helps his case, but playing in Cleveland doesn't.

[Indiana COBB]

Joe Carter int he Hall of Fame? I would love to see it, 1993 was the first year I got into baseball, I was 7 years old at the time, I know it was a silly childish reason but the reason why I loved the blue jays back then was ebcause I loved their uniforms (and hey my passion since 1995 the cubs werent so hot back then, and my dad had given up on them) During the summer of 1993 I remeber catching blue jay games on espn or when theyd play the white sox and we'd get those games I was able to bring my father back into baseball with my youthful enthusiasm in the team with the colorful bird as it's mascot. Quickly Joe Carter became my favorite player (And he is still my favorite player that played in my LIFETIME) Seeing Joe hit that world series Home run in game 6 against the phillies is one of my happiest childhood memories. I remember meeting Joe at Comiskey Park( now U.S. Cellular Field....what where you thinking Reinsdorph!) and Getting my baseball glove autographed by him during the strike shortened 1994 season and if memory serves correct at the strike of 1994 Carter had 30+ HR's and was on his way to a carrer year until the strike came. The 2000 and 2001 seasons (at this point a die hard cubs fan) where special to me because in the broadcast booth for the Cubs was my boy hood idol Joe Carter providing color commentary. Joe Carter will always be in my Hall of Fame

[dgarza]

10 100+ RBI years! (107 RBI 162gAVG)
yet only a 104 OPS+?
yet only 2 years of 100+ RCs?

The guy hit .259, yet, in 1986, he got 200 hits!
They guy also had a boat load of plate apps.(well, more than I though), were did he bat in the order?

he's an odd ball, stat-wise
some of his stats look really good, yet when they are put in another perspective, they are still good, but not "really good."

I used to think Joe Carter was a borderline cand., which ended up with me eventually probably saying YES, but it looks like he might be a bit less than what I used to think.

He's more of a 75% HOFer, rather than a 100% HOFer.

[Cougar]

Originally Posted by dgarza

10 100+ RBI years! (107 RBI 162gAVG)
yet only a 104 OPS+?
yet only 2 years of 100+ RCs?

The guy hit .259, yet, in 1986, he got 200 hits!
They guy also had a boat load of plate apps.(well, more than I though), were did he bat in the order?

he's an odd ball, stat-wise
some of his stats look really good, yet when they are put in another perspective, they are still good, but not "really good."

I used to think Joe Carter was a borderline cand., which ended up with me eventually probably saying YES, but it looks like he might be a bit less than what I used to think.

He's more of a 75% HOFer, rather than a 100% HOFer.

That might be a fair statement on the stats. What puts Carter over the top for me is that, having followed his career, he had intangibles out the wazoo.

This is the sort of thing that's completely subjective and impossible to quantify, so you either agree or you don't, but opinion has to enter in somewhere, right?

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by Cougar

This is the sort of thing that's completely subjective and impossible to quantify, so you either agree or you don't, but opinion has to enter in somewhere, right?

right...
I'm not sold on his intagibles pushing him beyond his stats, however...at least not enough to push him into the Hall, maybe right up to the door at best

[J W]

Here's an interesting list concerning the greatest Blue Jay:

Career Total Bases as a Blue Jay (Plate Appearances)

1) Carlos Delgado - 2786 (6018)
2) George Bell - 2201 (4877)
3) Tony Fernandez - 2198 (5900)
4) Lloyd Moseby - 2128 (5799)
5) Joe Carter - 1934 (4494)

[Cougar]

Originally Posted by J W

Here's an interesting list concerning the greatest Blue Jay:

Career Total Bases as a Blue Jay (Plate Appearances)

1) Carlos Delgado - 2786 (6018)
2) George Bell - 2201 (4877)
3) Tony Fernandez - 2198 (5900)
4) Lloyd Moseby - 2128 (5799)
5) Joe Carter - 1934 (4494)

OK, then, do the math -- divide TB by PA:

Delgado: 2786/6018 = .463
Bell: 2201/4877 = .451
Fernandez: 2198/5900 = .373
Moseby: 2128/5799 = .367
Carter: 1934/4494 = .430

Makes sense. Carter's in a group with the power hitting corner players, instead of speedy slick defenders. (Who the heck over thought Moseby was the greatest Blue Jay? I'm not sure he'd make my top 20.)

Of course, Carter spent his prime years with the Indians, on lousy teams in low offense environments. (Certainly his best single season was 1986.) He didn't play a game for Toronto until he was 31 years old.

Delgado has only been a Blue Jay and turned 32 this year. Bell was a regular for 7 years, ages 24-30.

(He was only on Toronto for 7 years. I'd have guessed longer before checking the record -- seemed like he was there forever.)

Delgado's the best so far, but hasn't endured a decline and enjoyed the offensive renaissance of the late 90's.

I'd give Carter a slight edge on Bell because of peripheral advantages in speed, defense, and durability. That said, it's been forgotten just how spectacularly Bell could rake.

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by ElHalo

Greatest player the Blue Jays ever had? Easy. Rickey Henderson.

What!?
I always thought it was Canseco...Pete Vuckovich at the very least

[csh19792001]

Originally Posted by Cougar

OK, then, do the math -- divide TB by PA:

Delgado: 2786/6018 = .463
Bell: 2201/4877 = .451
Fernandez: 2198/5900 = .373
Moseby: 2128/5799 = .367
Carter: 1934/4494 = .430

Makes sense. Carter's in a group with the power hitting corner players, instead of speedy slick defenders. (Who the heck over thought Moseby was the greatest Blue Jay? I'm not sure he'd make my top 20.)

Of course, Carter spent his prime years with the Indians, on lousy teams in low offense environments. (Certainly his best single season was 1986.) He didn't play a game for Toronto until he was 31 years old.

Delgado has only been a Blue Jay and turned 32 this year. Bell was a regular for 7 years, ages 24-30.

(He was only on Toronto for 7 years. I'd have guessed longer before checking the record -- seemed like he was there forever.)

Delgado's the best so far, but hasn't endured a decline and enjoyed the offensive renaissance of the late 90's.

I'd give Carter a slight edge on Bell because of peripheral advantages in speed, defense, and durability. That said, it's been forgotten just how spectacularly Bell could rake.

RBI's are a stat of opportunity. Carter's stat with RISP for his career (and with the bases loaded) are not better than many of the other great candidates for the HOF, but he had more guys on base than the majority of them, obviously. So while's it's great that he did drive in runs like he did, we must take that into consideration.

Carter's heroics in the postseason are commendable, but his record isn't enough to get him in the HOF.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally Posted by dgarza

What!?
I always thought it was Canseco...Pete Vuckovich at the very least

Barry Bonnell.

[bluejaysfan93]

I just think he did somthing for baseball in canada that no one after since him has done before. I know my friend who's 2 bothers both signed up for baseball because of him. He was there fav player. It would be awesome to see him in the hall.

[BoSox Rule]

It's the Hall of Fame. For the greatest players.

Not who got some of your buddies interested in baseball.

Joe Carter in the Hall?

Please. I'll pass.

[J W]

Originally Posted by BoSox Rule

Not who got some of your buddies interested in baseball.

Actually, you might be surprised how close to the truth that is.