Smokey Joe Wood - HOF?

[torez77]

What does everyone think? Should Smokey be in the Hall? Personally, I think his IP are too few to put him in, but golly what a career in that short time! What does everyone else think?

[leecemark]

--Way too short.

[Bill Burgess]

Joe Wood had 7 good seasons as a pitcher, '09-15.

Sandy Koufax had 6 good seasons as a pitcher, '61-66.

Bill Lange had 7 good seasons as an OF, 1893-1899.

Dizzy Dean had 6 good seasons as a pitcher, 1932-37.

Addie Joss had 7 good seasons as a pitcher, 1902-08.

Rube Waddell had 7 good seasons as a pitcher, 1902-08.

Urban Shocker had 9 good seasons as a pitcher, 1919-27.

Bobo Newsom was a good pitcher for 12 yrs. between '34-53.

Early Wynn was a very good pitcher for 22 yrs. between '41-63.

Bert Blyleven was a very good pitcher for 22 yrs. between '70-92.

Eppa Rixey was a very good pitcher for 21 yrs. between '12-33.

The Hall of Fame was not created to honor the 20 yr. good pitcher, nor the 5 yr. great one. A Hall of Fame pitcher, for me, should have a peak of at least 7-8 truly great yrs. with some others yrs. as a very good one, for longevity.

For me, even the great Koufax/Dean, were borderline Famers, due to the duration of their greatness. Joss is a truer Famer than Dean/Koufax, due to his 2 extra yrs.

Tons of players had a great few years, got hurt, or something else happened, and were only a shell of themselves after that. Oliva, Clark, Mattingly, Sisler, Reiser, Score, McDowell, Griffey Jr., J. R. Richards, Gooden, Dave Parker.

Of course, some just threw their careers away. McDowell became a hopeless drunk, Parker got addicted to cocaine, Gooden, drugs, Strawberry, drugs, Waddell, liquor.

Wood, despite fighting back and becoming an OF, was only a Hall pitcher for '11-12. Wonderful warrior's spirit, but simply not a Hall pitcher. Perhaps we should find another alternative honor to confer, as an alternative to the Hall.

Bill Burgess

[leecemark]

--Those 1911-12 seasons were the only ones where Wood started 30 games or pitched 200 innings. He was a great talent, but his peak wasn't nearly as long as short career HoFers Koufax, Dean or Joss. I think more recent guys like Guidry and Gooden whose best years were as good as Wood's and who stuck around for solid careers deserve consideration ahead of Wood. I wouldn't vote for any of the three, but if I had to pick one it would be Guidry with Gooden 2nd and Wood last of the group.

[dgarza]

Addie Joss had about 2 more pitching years in than Wood did and Wood was a pitcher (of some sort) for 2 more years than Joss!

Joss 286 pitching games in 9 years
Wood 225 pitching games in 11 years

[julusnc]

Wood falls into that category What Could Have Been.

He was great but not an elite pitcher.

Granted the Hall of Fame has been putting in just great players for awhile but two worngs dont make a roght.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by julusnc

Wood falls into that category What Could Have Been.

He was great but not an elite pitcher.

Granted the Hall of Fame has been putting in just great players for awhile but two worngs dont make a roght.

No; Wood certainly was an elite pitcher.

He falls in the same category as Doc Gooden... amazingly awesome for a little while, just not particularly long, and had a big stretch of nothing for much of his career.

I'd rather see guys like Gooden and Wood in the hall than guys like Sutton and Wynn... but I'd prefer it if none of them got in.

[julusnc]

I think to be qualified as an elite pitcher you have to have more than 5 great years under your belt.

Aka Big Train Big Six Three Finger Cy Spahnie but then again to each his own.

Would you consider Ruth as a elite pitcher EH?

I would rather vote for some of the better Negro League pitchers that had long careers than Wood or Gooden.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by julusnc

I think to be qualified as an elite pitcher you have to have more than 5 great years under your belt.

Aka Big Train Big Six Three Finger Cy Spahnie but then again to each his own.

Would you consider Ruth as a elite pitcher EH?

I would rather vote for some of the better Negro League pitchers that had long careers than Wood or Gooden.

I think this is just a definitional difference here.

Yes, I would consider Ruth to be an elite pitcher. I'd also consider Guidry, Wood, John Tudor, and Vean Gregg to be elite pitchers. At their best, they were pretty much as good as anybody has ever been. But I don't think a single one of them belongs in the Hall of Fame (well, Ruth, sure, but not for his pitching). They were "elite" for a year or two... but not so much for the rest of their careers.

I do, however, think that they'd belong in the Hall ahead of guys like Sutton and Wynn, who were above average for a very long time... to me, being among the greatest of all time for a couple of years is "greater" than being pretty good for 20 years. But in neither case do I feel the player belongs in the Hall.

As to the pitchers you mentioned... sure, those are all elite pitchers. But they managed to maintain their eliteness for a long enough time that they became All Time Greats. Wood, Gooden, etc., won't be showing up on anybody's top 40 starting pitcher's list...

But answer me this question: Who would you rather have start one game for you, if you needed to win one game and one game only... Doc Gooden in 1985, or Warren Spahn at any point of his career... pick your favorite point.

I'd say that 90% of the people answering that question would say the Doctor... so, at least by the way I define things, Doc is more "elite" than Spahn... even though Gooden doesn't crack my top 40 all time, and doesn't deserve a Hall spot to me, while I rank Spahn as my number 5 or 6 pitcher all time.

[baclightning]

Originally Posted by william_burgess@usa.net

Tons of players had a great few years, got hurt, or something else happened, and were only a shell of themselves after that. Oliva, Clark, Mattingly, Sisler, Reiser, Score, McDowell, Griffey Jr., J. R. Richards, Gooden, Wes Parker...

...Of course, some just threw their careers away. McDowell became a hopeless drunk, Parker got addicted to cocaine, Gooden, drugs, Strawberry, drugs, Waddell, liquor.

Bill Burgess

Surely you mean Dave Parker, rather than Wes Parker.

[Eddie Collins]

Hall of Fame ability? Sure
Hall of fame career? Doubt it.

Its scary to think what he and Joss could have done had they stayed healthy.

[Bill Burgess]

baclightning,

Oops. Thanks for the correction. I did indeed mean Dave, not Wes Parker.

Bill Burgess

[J W]

Originally Posted by dgarza

Joss 286 pitching games in 9 years
Wood 225 pitching games in 11 years

I think rather than the length of their careers, the number of games they pitched is the appropriate stat here.

Joss is pushing it; nonetheless he started at least 30 games five times, and also posted a 29, 28, and 24. So effectively, 8 of his 9 years in the bigs meant something.

Smokey Joe started at least 30 games only twice! TWICE! In no other season did he even start 20 games. Now to be fair, he did have 67 relief appearances... but he just didn't last long enough for me to give him support.

[The Only Nolan]

One pitcher who pitched fewer seasons than Smokey Joe who DID make the Hall of Fame is Amos Rusie, who pitched for only 10 years. Some people might say his career was too short, but he logged over 300 innings in 8 of those 10 years, won 20 or more games 8 times, and won 30 or more 4 times, and his 1894 season ranks up there with Wood's 1912 season, when you adjust for the era. Rusie is probably the extreme case of a pitcher with a very short career who's HOF worthy. Wood has better rate stats, but Rusie pitched almost 3 times the amount of innings.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by The Only Nolan

One pitcher who pitched fewer seasons than Smokey Joe who DID make the Hall of Fame is Amos Rusie, who pitched for only 10 years. Some people might say his career was too short, but he logged over 300 innings in 8 of those 10 years, won 20 or more games 8 times, and won 30 or more 4 times, and his 1894 season ranks up there with Wood's 1912 season, when you adjust for the era. Rusie is probably the extreme case of a pitcher with a very short career who's HOF worthy. Wood has better rate stats, but Rusie pitched almost 3 times the amount of innings.

Actually, Joss, who was only in the majors for 9 years and was basically useless for the ninth of those years, is the usual benchmark for short career pitchers... though Dizzy Dean has him beat by a mile.

[Imapotato]

Yes, it's the innings not games pitched that matters

Deadball pitchers were spent by 33 for the most part

W/O his disease Addie Joss might have had only 4 years left anyway.

Ed Walsh Sr...is #1 in career ERA, but is never mentioned in the same breath as Matty, Johnson, Young and Joss, because Ed pitched alot less innings...except for his one fantastic year.

And ONE fantastic year is usually what the very good pitchers like Waddell, Rucker, Russ Ford, Donovan, McGinnity, Chesbro, Pfiester had before their poor arm fell off

Smoky Joe had a VERY smart manager in Carrigan who caught him as well...and knew that as hard as Wood threw, and with the lack of control....he needed to limit his outings. Which he did...and why Wood was succesful for a broef period of time.

But Wood is no HOFer...but he is a great story in baseball history

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by Imapotato

Ed Walsh Sr...is #1 in career ERA, but is never mentioned in the same breath as Matty, Johnson, Young and Joss, because Ed pitched alot less innings...except for his one fantastic year.

Um... This isn't true at all. Walsh led the American League in IP 4 times, and was second another time. In 1908, he pitched 140 more innings than Joss, who was second in the league. In 1907, he had 70 more innings than second placer George Mullin.

For his career, Walsh had about 600 more IP than Joss, in 55 more starts.

As to Joss only having three more years left in him... it's possible. But Joss was an absolute monster from his rookie year straight through to age 29... at age 30 he got really, really sick, and wasn't effective. He died soon after.

But Christy Mathewson had his last truly effective season at age 32... only 3 years older than Joss when Joss had his last great season. So maybe Joss only had 3 or 4 more great years left in him. Then he'd be Christy Mathewson. Is that such a bad thing to be?

[torez77]

Originally Posted by ElHalo

Um... This isn't true at all. Walsh led the American League in IP 4 times, and was second another time. In 1908, he pitched 140 more innings than Joss, who was second in the league. In 1907, he had 70 more innings than second placer George Mullin.

For his career, Walsh had about 600 more IP than Joss, in 55 more starts.

As to Joss only having three more years left in him... it's possible. But Joss was an absolute monster from his rookie year straight through to age 29... at age 30 he got really, really sick, and wasn't effective. He died soon after.

But Christy Mathewson had his last truly effective season at age 32... only 3 years older than Joss when Joss had his last great season. So maybe Joss only had 3 or 4 more great years left in him. Then he'd be Christy Mathewson. Is that such a bad thing to be?

Walsh and Joss are two of the most underrated pitchers ever!

[torez77]

Since I ranted about Wood in the "underrated pitchers" thread, I thought I'd bring back this one from long ago.

Bill - Do you have any references to Smokey Joe hidden in your Historical Articles? I'm reading those articles one day at a time. There's a LOT there.

[538280]

Smokey Joe isn't within a mile of the HOF. He's maybe an okay candidate for the top 100 pitchers of all time (though he wouldn't make my list).

Why would you put in Smokey Joe before Dwight Gooden?

[torez77]

Originally Posted by 538280

Smokey Joe isn't within a mile of the HOF. He's maybe an okay candidate for the top 100 pitchers of all time (though he wouldn't make my list).

Why would you put in Smokey Joe before Dwight Gooden?

I wouldn't. As I said on the "underrated pitchers" thread, if he had a longer career (by HOF standards), he definitely would've made the HOF. It's nice to see someone mention him as a candidate for top 100 pitchers, though.

[538280]

Originally Posted by torez77

It's nice to see someone mention him as a candidate for top 100 pitchers, though.

Bill James actually includes him in his list of top 100 pitchers. #94 I believe.

[torez77]

What favors Wood over Gooden in my mind is that Gooden was never close to the same pitcher he was in his first 2 seasons, and it wasn't because of a career-hindering injury. Wood pitched great despite his injury in the 3 years prior to his retirement.

[KCGHOST]

Originally Posted by 538280

Smokey Joe isn't within a mile of the HOF. He's maybe an okay candidate for the top 100 pitchers of all time (though he wouldn't make my list).

That just about sums it up.

[Bill Burgess]

Originally Posted by torez77

Since I ranted about Wood in the "underrated pitchers" thread, I thought I'd bring back this one from long ago.

Bill - Do you have any references to Smokey Joe hidden in your Historical Articles? I'm reading those articles one day at a time. There's a LOT there.

Kinda doubt it. But you never know. Those articles are so wonderful because they are chock full of random, unsolicited stuff.

I put Joe Wood in with Herb Score. If not for a single season, he wouldn't register on the radar. At least not OUR radar for greatness. That is not to say he wasn't murder on the batter's of his day.

But baseball history is littered with pitchers who sparkled for a while. Ewell Blackwell, JR Richards, Rex Barney, Bob Turley, Dick Radatz, Jim Maloney, Bob Veale, Bobby Shantz, Sam McDowell, etc. Koufax could have been one of them if he hadn't found his control.

Those guys never closed in on being great short career guys, like Dean, Joss, Waddell, Vance, Walsh.

Bill