What about Dawson?

[pretorius]

I am curious as to what the delegation thinks about Dawson and if he is hall worthy. I think he is. He didnt reach alot of major milestones but as I compare him and say a Dave Winfield I think they are just about equal except for the fact that Dave hit for higher average. My criteria for the hall is usually two fold. I first ask if the player was special and then I see if he has the stats to back it up. Dawson was a special player. I have always seen Dawson as a link between Mays and Bonds. Dawson could run, hit and throw. I know he only had that 1 monster year in 87 but Dawson was a special player. He also didnt play much in the home run and power explosion of the mid to late 90's. I have to think that for the time in which he played that 436 HR, 1577 RBI's, 2,758 hits, 501 doubles, 314 stolen bases, a few gold gloves and more career extra base hits then the likes of men like Schmidt, Hornsby, Wagner, Ernie Banks and many others would qualify him for the hall.

Opinions on the hawk?

[leecemark]

--I would have to say Dave Winfield was a much better player than Andre Dawson. As you say, his BA was a little better. More importantly his OBP was much better. Dawson wouldn't take a walk and ended up with a worse than league average OBP for his career.
--Dawson isn't near the top of my eligible but not in list of RFers. I'd take Tony Oliva, Gavy Craveth, Dave Parker, Dewey Evans, Reggie Smith and Bobby Bonds ahead of him. He probably has a better chance of actually making the Hall than any of them though.
--If Dawson's knee had held up long enough for him to have remained in CF for more of his career I'd like him better. He wasn't as good as Dale Murphy and Freddy Lynn at their best, but lasted longer than either. You could make a case that if he was consdiered as a CF he would be at or at least closer to the head of the line. I am more impressed with his two 2nd place MVP finishes as a CF in Montreal in the early 80s than his undeserved win in 1987 with the Cubs.

[tibber]

i'd vote for him.

[Brad Harris]

Dawson's case would be "sexier" had his knees held up longer from the artificial turf of Stade Olympique. However, given the actual standards of the Hall of Fame as they have existed from 1936-present, I think there is a stronger case for his inclusion than there is for his exclusion.

Dawson made my phantom ballot in the 2004 BBWAA election and I expect he'll do so again this winter. I've got Dawson as the third most deserving outfielder (after Murphy and Rice) in the pending election this Christmas.

[ElHalo]

Dawson, Murphy, Rice... all get no, no, and no.

The eligible outfielders I'd like to see make it in include Sherry Magee, Gavvy Cravath, and... call me if you find somebody else deserving.

[micsmith]

Dawson is the only guy with 1000 career extra base hits that is not in the hall. He's also got the most total bases of guys not in the hall. Almost 1600 RBI, over 400 HR and over 300 stolen bases. Plus the first MVP for a last place team and he had a ton of hits. 8-time all star too. I think he should be in the hall ahead of contemporaries like Harold Baines and Dave Parker.

[leecemark]

--Well I can't argue him deserving it more than Baines and I'm no fan of Dave Parker either. Dawson has alot of points that make him worth considering. His only real negative is that godawfull OBP. He has a reasonable chance of getting the BWAA vote before he runs out of time. Unless the VC becomes a little more sabermetric or goes out of business before he becomes eligible I can't imagine him missing out on that second chance. Baines doesn't deserve a sniff and Parker has no chance of getting the BWAA vote. He will be a storng VC candidate someday too though.

[micsmith]

I think that it is perfectly fine to have major points against you for having some awful stat like Dawson's career OBP, which is admittedly horrendous. But, Reggie Jackson shattered Willie Stargell's (i think) record to become the king of strikeouts and he still leads that list. The top 7 guys on the all-time pitching losses list are in the hall. How many walks did Nolan Ryan give up? Rollie Fingers blew over 100 saves. So I think it is permissable to have some blemishes on your record.

[Eddie Collins]

When Andre was playing, I always felt he was a great player, destined for the HOF. Here are some of his credentials:

He has the most Hits, Total Bases, RBI, and extra base hits of any eligible, non-HOFer. He was an 8 time all-star, ROY, and MVP in 1987 and came in second 2 other times.. He won 8 gold gloves.

Dawson was one of the most complete players in major league history. He did absolutely everything. He hit for power, hence the 503 doubles and 438 homers. He was an excellent defensive player, as his 8 GG's show. He ran the bases well, with 314 stolen bases. He did the little things too, as marked by his having the 39th most HBP, and 7th most sac flies ever. His power speed number is 6th best all time, behind only Bonds, Henderson, Bonds, Morgan, and Mays.

The only big knocks against the Hawk are his strikeouts and lack of walks. But look carefully, and you will see that he really struck 100 or more times only 3 times in 21 years, and only once past age 24.
His OBP, I admit is bad. He wasn't the most patient of hitters. But he surely made up for it in the field, on the bases, and with small-ball execution. In fact, his OBp seems to be the only week spot in his game.

Any thoughts? I know I'd vote for him.

[Ontarioguy]

I would love to see Hawk in the HOF. He was an amazing player who did it all.
MVP, 30-30 man. A career .279 avg. The list goes on as Eddie described.

His resume is very impressive.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dawsoan01.shtml

I would love to see him in the hall with an Expos cap on. But he may get in wearing the red white and blue of the Cubs.

[pretorius]

Two players that I have always for some off reason linked (maybe because of Montreal) is Andre Dawson and Tim Raines.

I feel both are somehwat overlooked and both deserve in the hall.

[csh19792001]

Originally Posted by Eddie Collins

When Andre was playing, I always felt he was a great player, destined for the HOF. Here are some of his credentials:

He has the most Hits, Total Bases, RBI, and extra base hits of any eligible, non-HOFer. He was an 8 time all-star, ROY, and MVP in 1987 and came in second 2 other times.. He won 8 gold gloves.

Dawson was one of the most complete players in major league history. He did absolutely everything. He hit for power, hence the 503 doubles and 438 homers. He was an excellent defensive player, as his 8 GG's show. He ran the bases well, with 314 stolen bases. He did the little things too, as marked by his having the 39th most HBP, and 7th most sac flies ever. His power speed number is 6th best all time, behind only Bonds, Henderson, Bonds, Morgan, and Mays.

The only big knocks against the Hawk are his strikeouts and lack of walks. But look carefully, and you will see that he really struck 100 or more times only 3 times in 21 years, and only once past age 24.
His OBP, I admit is bad. He wasn't the most patient of hitters. But he surely made up for it in the field, on the bases, and with small-ball execution. In fact, his OBp seems to be the only week spot in his game.

Any thoughts? I know I'd vote for him.

Eddie, I'm surprised.

Aren't there far more valuable position player candidates? Van Haltren? Santo? Sandberg? Dahlen?

Positives- good speed/homer combo, but for all those hr's and doubles, still a very low relative slugging percentage. He had a tremendous arm, and was a great OFer.

Dawson struck out 3 times for every walk, which is AWFUL. How many positon players in the HOF did that? His OPS+ of 119 is also terribly low.

You mentioned walks- but I don't care about walks if 1)a guy has a high BA, or 2)he doesn't strike out. Unfortunately, Dawson was neither- he was an out machine. Low BA, lots of K's, very few walks, GIDP a lot. Guys like that don't belong in the HOF.

Ironically, he was the diametric opposite of one of your heroes, (Eddie Collins himself.) Collins was all brains, extremely adaptive, and incredibly clutch. Dawson was none of these things.

[leecemark]

--Eddie, I agree Dawson's only real flaw was a poor OBP, but that is a pretty big one to pick if you're going to suck at one area of the game. He was a big star in the 80s before people started really focusing on how important it was not to make so many outs (although you'd think people might always have seen that as a problem). His star fell pretty quickly in the 90s thru today.
--Still as you say, he does have alot of nice counting numbers. I think he has a fair to middling chance of election some day. Whether that would be a good thing or not is debatable. He is solidly in the grey area for me.

[Eddie Collins]

Originally Posted by csh19792001

Eddie, I'm surprised.

Aren't there far more valuable position player candidates? Van Haltren? Santo? Sandberg? Dahlen?

Yes, of course they are. He isn't one of the top 10 left out or anything, and Santo, Minoso, and a plenty others have a better case, but he was one of my favorites growing up, and I always thought he was a great player when he was playing. I guess this once again goes back to that issue on the perception of greatness.

[J W]

You are dead-on, EC. I'm sure if you asked anyone one month after he retired if he was a HOFer, you'd get a higher percentage than now.

He's borderline for me, but he makes it in my book. Like the others, the longer I look at him, the less bright his star shines. Ultimately though, his defense does it. From what I see, he deserved his gold gloves.

[dgarza]

although he had 300+ steals, he never was a true 30-30 man .
his counting stats are nice, not overwhelmingly high but still nice.
I'm counting only 2, maybe 2.5, "HOF type years" offensively.
Good OFer

I am pursuaded to vote for him at this point. A few years ago I wouldn't have been.

[Cougar]

It's mind-boggling to me why Dawson isn't in. Yeah, he didn't walk enough. Jeez, get over it.

Despite his low OBP, he was plainly one of the top 10 players in the game for about a 15 year stretch. His career numbers are staggering for a non-inductee, middle of the road for a inductee. Great fielder who spent about half his career in CF, half in RF (he ended up playing about two more seasons in RF so he tends to be considered strictly a corner OF, which is amnesiac).

That is patently a HOF career.

[scottdpops]

Andre Dawson is a Hall of Fame player. Statistics in his Favor,(Rank in all time categories)The second number in parentheses is the ranking of the eligible players that can be voted into the Hall of fame with/against him, and the player(s) that are better than him in that category. Also does not calculate players that were taken off the ballot
Because they did not get listed on 5% of the ballot and were dropped or active players.


438 Homeruns (30) (1)
1591 rbi’s, (28) (1)
4737 Total bases (24) (1)
503 doubles (41) (2) Boggs
300 stolen bases, (1)
111 HBP (39) (1)
1039 Ex Base hits (21) (2) Boggs
2774 Hits (43) 2 (Boggs)
118 – Sacrifice Flies (7) (1)
8 times in the top 10 in slugging %
8 times an all star
8 gold gloves,
ROY in 1977
MVP in 1987

And what are the Statistics against him?

217 GIDP (52) – did you ever see how hard he hit balls? If we wasn’t
such a hustle player, he might have hit into 50 more. How about lets
eliminate all the players that have at least 100 more GIDP’s than Dawson. Stating with
Ripken, Aaron, Yastremski, Winfield, Murray, Rice(Who should be in as well)
Brooks Robinson, Clemente, Al Kaline and Frank Robinson.

A ,279, lifetime average?, Certainly better than the .262 for Ozzie smith
And .267 for Brooks Robinson. Two players that are almost solely in the Hall of Fame for their glove work 13 and 16 gg’s respectively. And there are 3x as many outfielders Competing for the same position as there are SS or 3B,
Should I mention Phil Rizutto and Pee Wee Reese?

His OPS Wasn’t great? He was in the top 10 in the league 6 times in his career.His slugging % was fine, Who was the genius who decided to combine On base Percentage and slugging percentage. Hey I want to make a statistic, lets combine Strikeouts and amount of time that the player was on-deck when the last out was Made in the inning, well call it the PPWODAS. I don’t have a calculator but Dave Kingman should win this hands down right? Didn’t Ed Kranepool bat in front of him?

His OBP wasn’t good and that is his only knock.

If there is ever a year to vote in "Hawk" it would be nice for him to go in with
Wade and the other deserving players like Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver and Ryne Sandberg.

[mac195]

Dawson is part of a big group of '70s and '80s outfileders who are borderline HOF candidates. Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds, George Foster, Dave Parker, Fred Lynn, Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Dale Murphy, Jack Clark... Dawson fits somewhere in there. His counting stats are the best of that group, but his rate stats are the poorest, especially OBP. Dawson's gold glove total is impressive, but the fielding stats don't really back that up, so you have to wonder if he was a bit overrated defensively.

[Schadenfreuder]

I'm all for The Hawk...however, let me qualify this statement by saying that I also believe that Larry Walker is HOF material, so, y'know...
What can I say? I'm a fan of five-tool players.

[trosmok]

Originally Posted by Eddie Collins

Yes, of course they are. He isn't one of the top 10 left out or anything, and Santo, Minoso, and a plenty others have a better case, but he was one of my favorites growing up, and I always thought he was a great player when he was playing. I guess this once again goes back to that issue on the perception of greatness.

Couldn't have said it better, EC. Even if the stat crazed BBWAA knuckleheads snub him, the VC probably won't. Dawson was truly a remarkable five tool player, and possessed that intangible sixth (his desire to compete and win) that many writers overlook because they can't see past their keyboards and reference books. The guys that played with and against him will recall he was also a victim of collusion by the owners when they tried collective subterfuge in denying free agents a decent shake. I too, held him in high regard as an Expo, but when he became a free agent and played for the Cubs, essentially without a contract, I was amazed at his work ethic. He basically told the Wrigley gang to just pay him whatever they thought was fair, and he won the MVP on the woeful last place club. Not only was that feat unique, it made me a fan of his for life.

[pesky6]

Originally Posted by csh19792001

Dawson struck out 3 times for every walk, which is AWFUL. How many positon players in the HOF did that?

Reggie Jackson?

I don't have his stats in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that Jackson's K/BB ratio isn't great, either.

[Freakshow]

Originally Posted by pesky6

Reggie Jackson?

I don't have his stats in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that Jackson's K/BB ratio isn't great, either.

Jackson would take a walk. His K/W ratio is 1.89. I find six HOF position players worse than that.

2.27 Brock
2.14 Puckett
2.07 Stargell
2.02 Perez
1.99 Cepeda
1.98 Clemente

Among HOFers retired before 1970, George Kelly at 1.80 is the only one worse than 1.40.

[leecemark]

--Strike out rates have gone up consistenty over time. It is a mistake to give too much credit to pre-war (or even pre-60s) players for not striking out much or criticize more recent players for stirking out alot.
--When the strike zone was made smaller in 1963 the trend toward more strike outs exploded and the stigma to it was almost completed erased. Not only were lots of guys now getting 100+ K's a year, many of them were the best players in the game. Baseball men started to realize that the strike out wasn't such a huge negative and that the trade off in bigger power numbers was a net plus for most hitters.
--That said, a player who strikes out alot and doesn't walk really needs to try a new approach. Dawson's hack away approach was a huge flaw in his game (the only one really). His low OBP is the only thing keeping him out of the Hall. Eventually I think his other multiple skills and big counting numbers will over come that and he will get in.

[trosmok]

Originally Posted by pesky6

Reggie Jackson?

I don't have his stats in front of me, but I'm willing to bet that Jackson's K/BB ratio isn't great, either.

Now you have me wondering how Reggie's HR/K ratio stacks up among the HOF guys, and Andre Dawson's, since this thread is about him.

Jackson 563HR/2597K* =0.217
Dawson 438HR/1509K =0.290

*Denotes all-time record