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#1
07-10-2004, 08:27 AM
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Kiki Cuyler
Is he the least talked about HOFer ever? I have never seen nor heard anyone discuss his worthiness or lack thereof.
So.... Is Cuyler deserving of the honor?
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 This is the old left hander, rounding third and heading for home. "And this one belongs to the Reds!" 
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#2
07-10-2004, 02:38 PM
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Sure, absolutely. He's probably a bit below the median HOF (particularly adjusting for era), but really not much so. Solid HOF player.
We'll talk about Kirby Puckett about as much 75 years from now. The fact that he's forgotten doesn't mean he's not a great player.
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#4
07-10-2004, 07:55 PM
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--Cuyler obviously isn't a first tier Hall of Famer, but he isn't one of the worst either. He was a very good hitter, the best base stealer of his era and a very good corner outfielder who could play center if needed. Offensively he was pretty similar to Lou Brock, but didn't play nearly as many games and missed Brock's 3,000 hits by quite a bit (although it kept his rate stats higher). Defensively he was much better than Brock.
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#6
07-11-2004, 11:39 AM
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No, because Stan had a chapter in one of the most opular baseball books ever, The Glory of Their Times
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This is the old left hander, rounding third and heading for home. "And this one belongs to the Reds!"
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#8
07-12-2004, 07:51 AM
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Billy Herman? Earl Averill? Joe Sewell? Early Wynn? We could go through a long list of HoFers that nobody ever talks about. They need a name - "Average HoFers" seems an oxymoron. The C level players?
That's going to be the fun part of the BBF HoF, I think, when we start to debate these guys. It's gonna take a while to get there though, since we can't even seem to agree on the B+ level HoFers.
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#9
07-12-2004, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
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#10
07-12-2004, 07:58 AM
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--Of the guys mentioned above (in all posts) Luke Appling is the only "B" level Hall of Famer. Coveleski is the next best at a "B-/C+". The rest are C- to D, although all will get my vote eventually for BBF if we work our way down that far as a group.
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#11
07-12-2004, 11:17 AM
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I'd rank Cuyler with Averill and Herman, as I can't think of what to associate any of them with. Joe Sewell was hard to strike out. Early Wynn took forever to win his 300th and copped a CYA in 1959. Old Aches and Pains Appling won a batting title late in his career and went deep at age 75 in the Old Timers' Game. Manush, well, he's up there, too. I'd rank Cuyler ahead of Averill, Herman and Manush, though, which is why I have to concur with EC.
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RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man. RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man. RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed. Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
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#12
07-12-2004, 02:02 PM
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Vic Willis
I still forget that he is a HOFer most of the time Roger Connor, the man who held the Career HR title the longest, also held the 3B record, he tends to be forgotten
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Troy, NY Rich in Baseball History TROY -- Mayor Harry Tutunjian's pitch to get Major League Baseball to pay on a nearly 125-year-old debt by getting the San Francisco Giants to play an exhibition game at Bruno Stadium has raised some interest on the West Coast. Freaking politicians, I have a meeting to discuss this, and he takes credit for my idea
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#14
07-12-2004, 10:57 PM
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--He is best known as a high average hitter in an era when they were a dime a dozen. To be fair,he was one of the better guys at doing it. However, he wasn't nearly the best BA man of his time - leading the league only once. He had little power and barely over league average OBP. He was primarily a LF with no better than average defensive skills and he didn't steal bases. He isn't the top 100 in either Black or Grey Ink.
--I don't think he was one of the very worst choices for Cooperstown, but he is closer to the bottom than the top. He barely cracks my top 25 LFers. Which numbers do you think merit him ranking higher?
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#15
07-13-2004, 12:13 PM
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Imapotato has a good point about Roger Connor, the other great first baseman of the 19th century. I think it's the very fact he's a 19th century player that makes him forgotten to Joe Baseballfan... who frankly may or may not even recognize Cap Anson or Dan Brouthers.
I could go a step further. There may be an argument that "real baseball" began in 1900, but Joe Baseballfan may not realize that the sport existed prior to Babe Ruth. Kuyler and Manush are each other's most similar player... they played relatively the same position, at the same time, but in different leagues. I'm not really sure which one was the better player (yet) but I can definitely say that Joe Baseballfan has never heard of either guy.
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"The cavalry is coming. There are guys on the way and they're going to get here quickly." ~Dave Trembley Last edited by J W; 07-13-2004 at 12:16 PM.
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#16
07-13-2004, 05:03 PM
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but who knows. maybe my HOF standards aren't high enough. i mean, i don't see any problem with rick ferrell or ross youngs. *shrug*
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#17
07-13-2004, 05:57 PM
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--I'd say 4th rather than 3rd, but thats a pretty minor difference. Manush was much better than Ferrell or Youngs - they are the kinds of players I'd describe as bottom tier or simply bad choices.
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#18
07-13-2004, 10:13 PM
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i wasn't comparing manush to youngs or ferrell, just using them as examples of oft-criticized descions that i have no problem with. ferrell's numbers wouldn't be HOF worthy at any other position, but he was a catcher, who i think you have to judge a bit differently than you would another position. i believe youngs would have made it in anyway had he lived and kept up his pace, and i can't see why he wouldn't have.
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#19
07-23-2006, 06:52 AM
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baseballreference.com shows Manush elected to the HOF in 1964, while Cuyler was elected in 1968. I don't know why I thought that Manush and Cuyler went in together, but I remember it that way from my youth. Goes to show the accuracy of youthrul memories.
Manush had a longer career than Cuyler, but he was an impatient hitter who didn't walk all that much. He was elected at a time where his .330 lifetime BA carried a lot of weight. I rate him ahead of Cuyler, who walked more, mainly on career length. If Cuyler is a HOFer, why isn't Don Mattingly, Dick Allen, and Will Clark? Those guys had short careers, and were, arguably, better players. I don't want to rip Cuyler's plaque out, but if he retired today, the BBWAA would not elect him; he'd be in danger of "one and done".
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"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness." NL President Ford Frick, 1947
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#20
07-23-2006, 07:34 AM
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What about Red Faber? Edd Roush? Sam Rice? Zach Wheat? I think all of these guys and Cuyler and Willis are all lower-third, but definately deserving members.
Manush is borderline, but I have no problem with him making it.
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1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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#21
07-23-2006, 08:17 AM
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Most teams of their era would have been glad to have either Manush
or Cuyler in their lineup. Joe McCarthy, the greatest manager in the history of the game, went out of his way to get Cuyler for the Cubs and Cuyler was one of his coaches with the Red Sox. Manush was also an asset to the game. One could say, if one were so inclined, that Albert Pujols is a home run hitter when home run hitters are a dime a dozen! My beef with the HOF is not over whose in, but whose not. In particular Lefty O'Doul and Gil Hodges! Brownie31
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#22
07-23-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Bob
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#24
07-23-2006, 02:08 PM
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Cuyler is a short career guy who had a rep for loafing at times. He was NOT a team leader; he gets no boost from intangibles. He was a pretty good player who hit for a good BA in a high BA era who was elected to the HOF the winter after Yaz won the AL batting title at .301. He did not have exceptional defensive value; he was OK in the field. He is proof of Bill James' assertion that as time passes, the image of a player fades, and his induction to the HOF rests more and more on his batting stats, which remain constant. I have a tough time viewing Cuyler as better than Mattingly or Clark. I view Albert Belle as CLEARLY superior. I would like some feedback on that. Those guys had the same career length as Cuyler, and much higher peaks.
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"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness." NL President Ford Frick, 1947
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#25
07-23-2006, 05:48 PM
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--Cuyler was a second tier star at his peak and that isn't good enough for a guy with his shortish career. Very nice player, but there are probably a couple dozen outfielders outside the Hall of Fame who are as/more deserving.
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