General Thread on Padding Stats

[abolishthedh]

Julio Franco is 45, and hitting .282!

This is a phenomenal development, and it says something about Franco and about how players are aging more slowly. So, is a player padding his stats past age 40 when he can still play productively? This is a general question, since I have thoughts on many players both in and out of the Hall who would be germane to the discussion.

Please note that I am aware Franco has a long, long way to go before he is going to threaten the Hall. But also note that he wouldn't have so long to go if he hadn't missed 2.5 years by playing baseball in Japan. Franco is in Buckner/Baines territory as far as the Hall is concerned. Its just that its time to question whether age 40 is a legitimate age for fans to expect retirement.

Also, discussing steroids will not hijack this thread, IMO.

[Cougar]

Er, Barry Bonds turns 40 next month. Will he be padding his stats?

Was Nolan Ryan when he threw no-hitters 6 and 7?

Players can play for as long as they can get a ML club to give them the minimum salary, and it's fine with me.

If a player is clearly hanging on to pad stats (and/or maybe just because he can't make as good a living doing anything else), voters should be able to discern that.

Half the time, it's pretty explicit anyway -- McGriff and Galarraga are both expressly playing for round numbered HR totals, and it's an open secret that that's part of why Rickey is hanging around too.

[Roy Hobbs]

Rickey Henderson? I don't know man, he got in a long long time ago with his SB totals.

And I think improving counting stats ultimately balances out because rate statistics like BA, OBP, SLG, OPS tend to go down when you hold on past your time to get higher stat totals.

[The Dude]

I say it's fine if you can be Rocket or Unit and go out there and be a huge asset to your team. Can someone please point out another time to me when two 40+ year olds were dominating the triple crown?
Clemens ERA-1 Wins-1 K's-2
Johnson-ERA-8 Wins-2 K's-1

If you're able to come off the bench when you're say 43, 44 and hit .300 and occasionally fill in for an injury or a tired player, go out and do it.

If you're going to lose games for your team and go below the mendoza line, just hang those kleets up.

[Cougar]

Originally posted by Roy Hobbs
Rickey Henderson? I don't know man, he got in a long long time ago with his SB totals.

And I think improving counting stats ultimately balances out because rate statistics like BA, OBP, SLG, OPS tend to go down when you hold on past your time to get higher stat totals.

Oh. of course he did. Rickey wants 300 HR because Rickey wants 300 HR, not because Rickey wants 300 HR to get to the HOF.

Your other point is 100% correct.

[ElHalo]

Originally posted by Roy Hobbs
Rickey Henderson? I don't know man, he got in a long long time ago with his SB totals.

Yeah, he's a sure fire HoF'er... but he's sitting on 297 HR. He'd really, really like to get to 300.

[tibber]

didn't phil neikro play until he was 48? oh well, he's a knuckleballer, i think you have to judge them by different standards.

[The Dude]

Yeah, Knuckleballers should definatley be judged differently. They can still go out there and win 15+ games in their 40's if at least one of their other pitches holds up.

I wonder if Wakefield will stick around long enough to win 200.

[abolishthedh]

As the message says below, A rising sea raises all boats. We are living longer as a society. I know of an old lady in our neighborhood who still works and she's well into her 90s. She's sharp as a tack!

The entire age spectrum has shifted, and I wonder how that will factor into HoF debates. Will the efforts be perceived as padding stats, or as productive contributions?

[Fuzzy Bear]

The age spectrum has changed because of the higher salaries and advances in sports medicine. What HASN'T changed is that it's only the great players that are there at the end.

You don't find 40 year old utility infielders, unless the guy was a former star who is still hanging in there, accepting a lesser role.

Staying in the game a long time is a sign of greatness; a sign of real quality. Great players age better. Players with higher peaks that flame out are, IMO, not superior to players with less high peaks, but longer careers, assuming those careers are productive.

[538280]

I have no problem with players sticking around as long as they can. Teams would not keep them on their roster and pay them a salary if they were completely useless, it just doesn't happen. Most old stars who stick around still are at least MLB caliber. Rickey wasn't nearly as good as he used to be, but he was still pretty fast, got on base a lot, and was lots of fun (I can attest to that when he was with the Red Sox).

[drjjpdc]

I just think that any player that can still perform into his 40's is simply because the quality of play with too many teams and not enough players. There is no way that you can get me to believe that an older person could play that well against pitchers from 20-30 years ago. I know all about Cobb, Musial having over the top years in their early 40's, but that was the exception, even for them.

[cbenson5]

I don't view a player hanging on as long as possible as him padding his stats. I have the utmost respect for players that still have the desire and ability to play past 40. Of course simply getting to a single milestone such as 3000 hits should not automatically qualify you for the Hall of Fame. Peak years and career stats should both be considered when considering Hall of Fame election.

[brett]

If a player is contributing to his team winning, even if his percentages are dropping, it is an asset to his his career standing.

I don't think Pete Rose was doing any better than the best minor league prospect available might have in his last 3-4-5 years.

I heard that Sosa wants to come back by the way. 600 HRs might get him in.

Another thing. If we have a guy perform at a young age like Griffey for example, and work hard in the offseason to avoid injury and stay productive until he is 45, some one will produce 4500 hits and or 900 homeruns some day.

In fact, considering that Griffey Sr. played well until he was 42, Griffey could still have 6 years left if he could avoid injury.

[brett]

By the way, I'd love to see Rickey play in Colorado for a year.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by drjjpdc

I just think that any player that can still perform into his 40's is simply because the quality of play with too many teams and not enough players. There is no way that you can get me to believe that an older person could play that well against pitchers from 20-30 years ago. I know all about Cobb, Musial having over the top years in their early 40's, but that was the exception, even for them.

The pool of talent from which MLB draws has increased over the years. The quality of play is BETTER now than it ever was, between a greater pool of players from which to choose from, and advances in conditioning.

The greater pool of players comes from:

(A) More countries
(B) More people in America than ever before

The number of teams in baseball has changed, but the number of players per team has not. The number of MLB franchises has not increased in proportion to the potential talent pool.