Cecil Cooper?

[The Dude]

Career .298/.337/.466.
241 HR
1,125 RBI's
2,192 hits
1,012 Runs
415 Doubles
100+ RBI's 4 times
2 seasons of 200+ Hits, 30+ HR's, and 100+ RBI's.
5-Time All Star
2 Time GG winner
Led league twice in Doubles and HR's
Top 5 in hits 4 times
Top 10 in HR's 3 times
Top 5 in BA 3 times
Top 10 in OPS+ 4 times

[julusnc]

Cooper is just an ALL-Star not a Hall of Famer.

Just like the man the Red Sox traded Cooper for is just an ALL-Star.

Brewers traded George Scott for Cecil cooper to the Red Sox

[leecemark]

Cooper is a little short of the line for me, but he has a better case than Buckner and there is a thread trying to drum up support for him. He doesn't have as good a case as Allen or Mattingly or Clark or Hernandez or Cash or Hodges and several more coming up for consideration over the next few years. I'd say his chances are pretty slim.

[Cougar]

Cooper really belongs in the Will Clark/Mattingly/Hernandez/Garvey cluster of 1b, and since I think the people in that group makes the cut, Cooper does as well, for me.

He was a low visibility player in Milwaukee during his prime, but he was really every bit as good as those other players. His low OBP hurts him -- he would have been better to walk more.

I've no illusions that he's going to get in any time soon -- there's a logjam at 1b, and it's going to get worse before it gets better -- but I'm with Dudecar.

By the way, you meant he led the league twice in doubles and RBI, right? Plus, he led in total bases in 1980, when Cooper had an absolutely gonzo season that was totally overshadowed by Brett's run at .400.

[Brad Harris]

Wow.

Glad to see Cooper isn't totally forgotten in the discussion, at least.

Personally, I agree that he belongs in the Clark/Mattingly/Garvey class of first basemen who aren't in.

I'm very reluctant, however, to elect en masse that group and I'd rather shift through it one player at a time looking for a reason that Cooper might stand out above these other guys.

At this moment in time, I can't see it. So I would say that, at best, Cooper is in a dog fight for the title of "best first baseman who doesn't belong in the Hall."

[dgarza]

Cooper seemed to take a few years to "warm up" to the big leagues, which probably "hurt" him a bit for HOF consideration, but once he got to out of Boston, he hit stride. He also knew when to call it quits, instead of hanging on for way too many years, which might have "hurt" his number too, but is really more respectable.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I wouldn't endorse him for the HOF, but he most certainly deserved a better fate than zero votes when he was on the actual ballot. That always has puzzled me.

[leecemark]

I think Cooper called it quits because he had reached a point where nobody would pay him to play anymore. His numbers his last two seasons were 258/312/373 and 248/296/372.
At his peak Cooper was a very good firstbaseman. If he had gotten started a little earlier he would have a reasonable case. I think of him as an Al Oliver type player, but Oliver played 500 more games and still ended up with slightly better percentages. Oliver also gets extra credit for playing CF, even though he didn't play center as well as Cooper played first. I know it is streching it a bit to bring Oliver into the discussion, but he did play six seasons at first and was a similar yet better player than Cooper. If you look at Cooper's numbers in isolation he doesn't seem really out of place in a Hall of Fame discussion. When you start looking at all the players better than him not in the Hall, his cases starts looking awfully weak.

[Brad Harris]

Cooper's career numbers compared to league average:

BA - +13%
OBP - +3%
SLG - +18%
OPS* - 21%

* indicates this figure is adjusted for park factors.

You know, there aren't that many players with an OPS+ of 121 who came to bat almost 8,000 times and who aren't in the Hall of Fame.

A lineup with 9 Cecil Coopers could expect to put up 5.8 runs per game on the board.

[dgarza]

Originally posted by Chancellor
You know, there aren't that many players with an OPS+ of 121 who came to bat almost 8,000 times and who aren't in the Hall of Fame.

Not but Will Clark, Keith Hernandez, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges, George Foster, Willie Horton, Jose Canseco, Dwight Evans, Dave Parker, Harold Baines, Jim Rice, Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds, Dale Murphy, Ken Singleton, Rusty Staub, Al Oliver, Tim Raines, Chili Davis, Bob Elliot, Sherry Magee, Joe Torre, Ed Konetchy, Hal McRae, Ron Santo, Jimmy Ryan, ... please tell me when to stop..I know, some of these guys are not eligable yet, but...



and I have a hard time seeing 7349 ABs as almost 8,000, so I'm including those with 7000-7500+ ABs and OPS+ of 120 plus.

[leecemark]

Baseballreference.com lists the top 100 in OPS+ based on 3,000 AB. Number 100 is at 136 or 15% better than Cooper. Of course, that is more than a little unfair to Cooper since he had well over twice the number of AB required to make the list. 32 of the top 100 are not in the Hall of Fame, but of those only Will Clark (138), Sherry Magee (137 ) and Reggie Smith (136) could match Coopers 7,000 + AB. Frank Howard (142), Harry Stovey (143), Norm Cash (139), Bob Johnson (138) and Jack Clark (137) had over 6,000. Using AB short changes Cash and Clark because they walked over twice as much as Cooper and both actually played in more games. Howard also walked much more than Cooper and played in about the same number of games.
There is a pretty big gap between Cooper and number 100. I'd guess at least 100 more guys would be ahead of him. Mattingly played about the same number of games and had a 6% higher ops. I was pleased to see that my early comment that he was very similar to Al Oliver as a hitter was proved correct by this measure. They have exactly the same OPS+ and Oliver had over 1,000 more AB.
What I learned from this bit of work was 1) I am way underrating Will Clark, 2) everyone is underrating Norm Cash and Reggie Smith, 3) the Sherry Magee fan club is absolutely right (although I was at least partly onboard before) and 4) Cecil Cooper is further than ever from being on my Hall of Fame radar.
Frank Howard, Harry Stovey, Bob Johnson and Jack Clark fared well too, but I can only upgrade so many at a time.

[BoSox Rule]

Some people need to stop making threads about people going into the hall (who have no business being) there just to look smart.

[dgarza]

Originally posted by leecemark
everyone is underrating Norm Cash and Reggie Smith,

Reggie Smith more so...

Ken Singleton suprisingly makes the list, too.

[dgarza]

Originally posted by Chancellor

A lineup with 9 Cecil Coopers could expect to put up 5.8 runs per game on the board.

and with Cecil pitching, probably 5.8 runs for the other team as well.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally posted by dgarza
and with Cecil pitching, probably 5.8 runs for the other team as well.

If his delivery were anything like his batting stance . . .

[julusnc]

The best Brewers have been inducted into the Hall of Fame Yount and Molitor.No other Brewers from the past or present deserve to be enshrined.

Cooper was an ALL-Star.

[The Dude]

Originally posted by BoSox Rule
Some people need to stop making threads about people going into the hall (who have no business being) there just to look smart.

So now I'm trying to look smart because I'd like to know peoples opinions on Cecil Cooper? Grow up please.

[NOMAR22]

Originally Posted by Dudecar00

Career .298/.337/.466.
241 HR
1,125 RBI's
2,192 hits
1,012 Runs
415 Doubles
100+ RBI's 4 times
2 seasons of 200+ Hits, 30+ HR's, and 100+ RBI's.
5-Time All Star
2 Time GG winner
Led league twice in Doubles and HR's
Top 5 in hits 4 times
Top 10 in HR's 3 times
Top 5 in BA 3 times
Top 10 in OPS+ 4 times

Cecil Cooper never lead the league in Homeruns.
His teammates George Scott once ,Ben Oglivie once and Gorman Thomas did it 2 times .

[Tigerfan1974]

Originally Posted by BoSox Rule

Some people need to stop making threads about people going into the hall (who have no business being) there just to look smart.

I could not agree more!!
Cooper is NOT a Mattingly/Clark/Garvey 1st basemen.

He may have made the All-Star team but so what! I saw him play and I think he was middle of the road. He is certainly below the trio named and others.
The trio, any and all, may not make the Hall and Cooper certainly shouldn't.
Cooper for Scott was, more or less, an equal trade as Scott will not ever make the Hall either.

[KCGHOST]

Cooper is not an HoFer, but he was a fine player, and despite what some people saw he was superior to Steve Garvey. No where near Will Clark, though. Cooper and Mattingly are each other's best comparable player.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by KCGHOST

Cooper is not an HoFer, but he was a fine player, and despite what some people saw he was superior to Steve Garvey.

If you care nothing about longevity nor defense

<Cooper and Mattingly are each other's best comparable player.>

For Cooper, maybe Adcock or Sievers

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by Tigerfan1974

Cooper is NOT a Mattingly/Clark/Garvey 1st basemen.

Agreed.
For me, Cooper is more of a Mickey Vernon, maybe in the same group as Vernon/Hodges/Kluszewski?/Fournier?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by dgarza

Cooper seemed to take a few years to "warm up" to the big leagues, which probably "hurt" him a bit for HOF consideration, but once he got to out of Boston, he hit stride. He also knew when to call it quits, instead of hanging on for way too many years, which might have "hurt" his number too, but is really more respectable.

Two things hurt Cooper:

(A) He had his biggest season when George Brett had his biggest season. In the best Luis Gonzalez tradition.

(B) He played just long enough to allow his BA to drop under .300 lifetime.

[538280]

Cooper was a very good player, certainly worthy to be remembered and a key member of one of the greatest offenses of all time. However, his offense was far from great from first base, he did not last extremely long, and made no great contributions outside of his bat. Not a HOFer, though I may rate him ahead of Steve Garvey, and perhaps Don Mattingly (though neither is even close to the HOF IMO). Clark would be far ahead of all three.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

Two things hurt Cooper:
(B) He played just long enough to allow his BA to drop under .300 lifetime.

I'm still amazed how people think that exactly reaching a milestone is light years above just missing it by a hair