No Respect For Thirdbase

[leecemark]

No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman. Why do you think so few 3B are in and who do you think should be. Three of my top 10 thirdbasemen are eligible, but not in. It would be four of ten if you count Molitor as a DH (which he was) and not a thirdbaseman. No other position has more than one of my top ten eligible but not in and none of my top 15 eligible shortstops are not in. My list as follows:
1. Mike Schmidt - in
2. George Brett - in
3. Eddie Mathews - in
4. Wade Boggs - not eligible, but surely will be in
5. Ron Santo - the best player not in
6. Frank Baker - in
7. Brooks Robinson - in
8. Ken Boyer - not in , but should be
9. Graig Nettles - not in, but would have my vote
10. Paul Molitor - coming soon to a Hall near you
11. Stan Hack - not in, but should have been a long time ago
12. Pie Traynor - in
13. Al Rosen - not in and career probably was too short
14. Sal Bando - not in and not likely to be
15. Ron Cey - not in
16. Darrel Evans - not in
17. Jimmy Collins - in and maybe underrated by me
18. Bob Elliott - not in
19. Buddy Bell - not in
20. Chipper Jones - no longer at third,but building his case

Players not in my top 20 but in the Hall: George Kell and Freddy Lindstrom.
Players not in my top 20, but better than Kell or Lindstrom: Tommy Leach, Henie Groh, Harlond Clift, Lave Cross and Gary Gaetti. Player I wouldn't endorse but am surprised some batting average boosters haven't: Bill Madlock
There are also two Negro League 3B's in the Hall, Judy Johnson and Ray Dandrige, and possibly other Negro Leaguers better than some guys I've mentioned. I leave them (and most 19th century guys) off my lists because I haven't studied them enough to rate them with any accuracy.

[santotohof]

Molitor is in but really they put him in as a DH. I agree with you on Chipper. He has been quietly amassing a HOF career but ,like Molitor ,I don't think they'll treat him as a 3baseman.

[Cougar]

Top 10 eligible 3b not enshrined:

1. Ron Santo
2. Stan Hack
3. Ken Boyer
4. Graig Nettles
5. Darrell Evans

(These top 5 should go in today.)

6. Buddy Bell
7. Lave Cross
8. Al Rosen
9. Bob Elliott
10. Heinie Groh

Sal Bando could mix in this bottom half somewhere, as could Cey and Leach, I guess.

[Brad Harris]

I tend to agree with the concensus - Boyer, Evans, Hack, Nettles and Santo should all be in a.s.a.p.

There are a number of other, very interesting cases among third basemen to which I am sympathetic, but I'm of a mind to focus on the five guys named above first: they are pretty obviously deserving in my book. It will be difficult enough to find support for Darrell Evans or Stan Hack; it would be foolish to go looking for support for Lave Cross, Bob Elliott or Tommy Leach until some of these guys are elected first.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by Cougar

Top 10 eligible 3b not enshrined:

1. Ron Santo
2. Stan Hack
3. Ken Boyer
4. Graig Nettles
5. Darrell Evans

(These top 5 should go in today.)

6. Buddy Bell
7. Lave Cross
8. Al Rosen
9. Bob Elliott
10. Heinie Groh

Sal Bando could mix in this bottom half somewhere, as could Cey and Leach, I guess.

I would put Al Rosen in. Rosen is the Dizzy Dean of position players; he had a short career, but he had a peak like no other; his PEAK value may well have exceeded Schmidt's. If Dizzy Dean got in the HOF with the short career he had, Rosen deserves more serious consideration than he's gotten to date.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by leecemark

No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman. Why do you think so few 3B are in and who do you think should be. Three of my top 10 thirdbasemen are eligible, but not in. It would be four of ten if you count Molitor as a DH (which he was) and not a thirdbaseman. No other position has more than one of my top ten eligible but not in and none of my top 15 eligible shortstops are not in. My list as follows:
1. Mike Schmidt - in
2. George Brett - in
3. Eddie Mathews - in
4. Wade Boggs - not eligible, but surely will be in
5. Ron Santo - the best player not in
6. Frank Baker - in
7. Brooks Robinson - in
8. Ken Boyer - not in , but should be
9. Graig Nettles - not in, but would have my vote
10. Paul Molitor - coming soon to a Hall near you
11. Stan Hack - not in, but should have been a long time ago
12. Pie Traynor - in
13. Al Rosen - not in and career probably was too short
14. Sal Bando - not in and not likely to be
15. Ron Cey - not in
16. Darrel Evans - not in
17. Jimmy Collins - in and maybe underrated by me
18. Bob Elliott - not in
19. Buddy Bell - not in
20. Chipper Jones - no longer at third,but building his case

Rosen better than Evans?
Traynor better than Jones?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

Rosen better than Evans?
Traynor better than Jones?

Rosen is better than Evans on peak value.

Traynor is better than Jones on career value, to date, but that may change.

[leecemark]

--Rosen was better than Evans, although Evans lasted enough longer that he perhaps should rank ahead. Certainly he was more valuable, although I think overrated by sabermetrics. As for Traynor and Jones, this was posted 2 years ago. Pie has gone down and Chipper up in my estimation since then and Jones is ahead.
--Actually this thread was revived 2 years to the day from its inception. Quite the concidence.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

Rosen is better than Evans on peak value.

And John Paciorek is better than Rosen on peak

<Traynor is better than Jones on career value, to date>

Chipper is a little behind in PA & glove, but
141 OPS+ to 107?

[538280]

3Bmen not in who should be:
1.Ron Santo-no explanation necessary. Who knows why he hasn't gotten in. Only player outside who rivals him is Dick Allen.
2.Sal Bando-been over him many times, I have no idea why he doens't get more support
3.Darrell Evans-Very good player for a really long time, very good hitter and fielder. Similar to Nettles but greater bat, less glove
4.Graig Nettles-On the fence on him, great glove a pretty good bat. BA was so low though that his OBP isn't high even though he walked a lot.
5.Heinie Groh-Monster peak, best player in NL between Wagner and Hornsby.

Ken Boyer I'm shaky on. I'm not so sure if he's a HOFer. I could be convinced though.

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by leecemark

No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman.

I had no idea Sherry Magee was a third baseman.

In all seriousness, I do believe that there are three eligible 3Bmen who should be in (Santo, Hack, and, thanks to Chris, Groh), and that there are some questionable guys in already. However, 3B in my view is BY FAR the weakest position. There just haven't been that many guys who've been great players and also happened to play 3rd. It happens; outside of Griffey, there's been a thinness on great CF's for decades, and it just so happens that the thinness on 3Bmen has lasted a hundred and fifty years.

[leecemark]

--Hall of Fame quality thirdbasemen were certainly in short supply for the first 80 or so years of MLB. For much of that time a thirdbaseman was simply a team's second best SS. Since the 50s I'd say it has produced as many great players as any other position though. I guess the lower number of 3Bs is largely a reflection of the much higher standards being applied to modern players. Many second tier stars of the pre-WWII/integration period reside in Cooperstown. Very few non-superstars of the modern era have made it.

[KCGHOST]

I have no problem with Santo, Hack and maybe Evans. To me the rest of the guys are short of the mark for varying reasons.

[runningshoes]

Santo should have been elected in 1979.

He's way over due.

[baseballPAP]

While there are only 4 guys I'd consider "should-bes" (Santo, Boyer, Bando and John Beckwith), I would think a decent case could be made for any of these: Harlond Clift, Darrell Evans, Billy Nash, Hack, Nettles and Groh. Billy Nash is an interesting player....while not a great hitter, he was great at the things he was supposed to be in his era....great glove and fast as hell...yet I've never seen him mentioned here. Third base more than any other position (possibly along with 2B) has seen its focus shift many times. Players that were everything you could ask for when they played don't necessarily look that good these days.

[538280]

Two guys who I've always wanted to learn more about as possible HOF caliber players are Denny Lyons and Bill Joyce. I always get them confused, but I've come to remember Joyce as the 1890s guy and Lyons as the 1880s one. I really know close to nothing about them other than their statistics, and those stats are very, very impressive in both cases.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by ElHalo

I had no idea Sherry Magee was a third baseman.

He isn't, nor is he the best not in the Hall. That might fall to Rose, Raines (if he doesn't get voted in), Dahlen, Whitaker ...

[adarowski]

So, I'm doing an extensive look at third basemen for the Rule V Baseball Blog. Two guys look better on paper than I see them get credit for. Bill Madlock is one, but the other is Bob Elliott. Any general feeling about these guys out there? I've seen universal support for Santo (of course) and quite a bit for Hack, Evans, and Boyer. Just trying to be exhaustive on this one.

Thanks! My first post!

[leecemark]

--Welcome to BBF. Elliot I think just gets overlooked. He played through WWII which hurts him, perhaps even more than if he'd missed those years. He also split his time between OF and 3B which hurts him some. He is close, but no cigar IMO.
--Madlock does get talked about some here, but usually not in a very positive way. He has the batting titles, but nothing else. Lousy fielder, bad clubhouse guy and short career numbers.

[DoubleX]

I agree that Bob Elliot gets almost next to no mention on these boards. I think I have him in my top 15 at 3B.

[dgarza]

Surely we can say that Deacon White was a 3b, can't we?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by 538280

3Bmen not in who should be:
Ken Boyer I'm shaky on. I'm not so sure if he's a HOFer. I could be convinced though.

Most, if not all, of the arguments made for Ron Santo, can be made for Ken Boyer. Boyer played in the shadow of Eddie Mathews (who played in the shadow of Brooks Robinson, for reasons still obscure) while Santo emerged as Mathews started to decline a bit, but he's still of the same type and quality as Santo. Boyer also won an MVP and played on a surprise World Champion, things Santo did not do.

[538280]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

Most, if not all, of the arguments made for Ron Santo, can be made for Ken Boyer. Boyer played in the shadow of Eddie Mathews (who played in the shadow of Brooks Robinson, for reasons still obscure) while Santo emerged as Mathews started to decline a bit, but he's still of the same type and quality as Santo. Boyer also won an MVP and played on a surprise World Champion, things Santo did not do.

Now that's where I disagree. I don't think Boyer and Santo were really comparable in value. Similar in type, but Santo was the much better hitter, and thus more valuable. Santo's OPS+ is 125, Boyer's 116. Are those really comparable? No. Santo also had about 1000 more PAs. He was, according to several metrics, one of the best players in the NL in the mid 1960s (the best according to TPR and maybe WS). Boyer had that MVP award, but he really didn't deserve it at all, and Santo deserved one in 1967 IMO.

I did a comparison a while ago, Sal Bando against Ken Boyer. In any objective way I could look at it, making all neccessary adjustments. I just cannot see Boyer ahead. Bando is a little bit better in everything. Yet everyone rates Boyer ahead, and I just don't get what the big deal is with him. OPS+ peak was 143, 135, 130. IN his prime was at about 125. Short period of dominance, and it's not a tremendous peak. Not a great career value guy, so what's the deal?

I know Boyer was a good fielder, but I don't think he was anywhere near Brooks Robinson or his own brother's territory. Probably a B to B+ 3B from what I've gathered. Not all that special. So, enlighten me. What am I missing?

[ElHalo]

Originally Posted by leecemark

I guess the lower number of 3Bs is largely a reflection of the much higher standards being applied to modern players. Many second tier stars of the pre-WWII/integration period reside in Cooperstown. Very few non-superstars of the modern era have made it.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Very few non-superstar old timers made it into the Hall immediately after their careers were done. They made it in decades later... decades that the more modern players haven't gotten a chance to wait yet. Granted, there's no longer a Frankie Frisch factor, but I do think that you'll see more second tier modern guys start to get in as the decades pass.

[DoubleX]

Originally Posted by 538280

Now that's where I disagree. I don't think Boyer and Santo were really comparable in value. Similar in type, but Santo was the much better hitter, and thus more valuable. Santo's OPS+ is 125, Boyer's 116. Are those really comparable? No. Santo also had about 1000 more PAs. He was, according to several metrics, one of the best players in the NL in the mid 1960s (the best according to TPR and maybe WS). Boyer had that MVP award, but he really didn't deserve it at all, and Santo deserved one in 1967 IMO.

I did a comparison a while ago, Sal Bando against Ken Boyer. In any objective way I could look at it, making all neccessary adjustments. I just cannot see Boyer ahead. Bando is a little bit better in everything. Yet everyone rates Boyer ahead, and I just don't get what the big deal is with him. OPS+ peak was 143, 135, 130. IN his prime was at about 125. Short period of dominance, and it's not a tremendous peak. Not a great career value guy, so what's the deal?

I know Boyer was a good fielder, but I don't think he was anywhere near Brooks Robinson or his own brother's territory. Probably a B to B+ 3B from what I've gathered. Not all that special. So, enlighten me. What am I missing?

Since you're the biggest Sal Bando fan I know, did you catch his cameo, along with Gene Tenance, on the Simpsons last night?