Virgil Trucks?

[The Mick]

I'd like to get your takes on a player to possibly use in an upcoming article. Last week we (at The Highlander) did an interview with Mr. Virgil Trucks. He's a great guy (85 now) and those of you that are familiar with him know that he played the majority of his career with the Tigers. He finished his career as a Yankee (in 1958). He said that he believes that if he had been in NY instead of Detroit - he would have been a Hall Of Famer (or at least considered).

Here are some highlights from his career:
While with the Tigers in 1952, this burly Southerner tossed a pair of no-hitters against the Senators and the Yankees, joining such luminaries as Johnny Vander Meer, Allie Reynolds, and Nolan Ryan as the only pitchers to accomplish this feat in a single season. Trucks also had four no-hitters in the minors and a near-miss with the White Sox in 1954. The control pitcher returned from military service in 1945 and appeared in the World Series against the Cubs, winning 4-1. He had appeared in only one game during the regular season. After a decade in Detroit, Trucks arrived in Chicago via St. Louis in 1954. Trucks recorded eight straight victories en route to his first and only twenty-victory season. Fading after 1955, he returned to the Tigers in 1956. He wound up his career with the Yankees as a spot starter and relief man in their pennant year of 1958. In 1938 he also struck out his 418th batter -- the highest season total in organized ball.

[Eddie Collins]

Good player? Yes

Hall of Famer? No

[The Mick]

I think what I meant was that IF he had been a part of the Yankees rotation (at the time - instead of Detroits) would he have had HOF caliber numbers?

[Eddie Collins]

Possibly, I'm sure any good pitcher would benefit from playing with a good offense.

[JACKIE42]

In the mid 40s Trucks was part of what was called the T.N.T. pitching staff.

Trout, Newhouser, and Trucks. ( T.N.T. )

[Captain Cold Nose]

Outside of Whitey Ford, how many HOF pitchers did the Yankees have in the post-WWII, Pre-Steinbrenner era? The Tigers had a couple, although Jim Bunning made significant contributions elsewhere and Hal Newhouser's best days were during wartime.

I think it's a false perception that playing for the Yankees would enhance a player's chances of making it. There are some questionable choices from the twenties and thirties, but since that time, with the exception of Phil Rizzuto, the Yankees have had a lot of good players who have deservedly not been given a free pass.

Trucks, from my understanding, is, as the Mick says, a great guy. He was one of my father's favorites as he worked the dugouts as a kid in Tiger Stadium. It is quite possible that a change in scenery might have enhanced his HOF candidacy, and pitching for a consistently winning team surely would have given him a better record. But I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to say playing for the Yankees would have been his ticket.

[Brad Harris]

It's a pretty big stretch to say he'd be in the Hall of Fame already if he'd played for the Yankees. Would he have a better W-L record? That's hard to argue against. But the margin of difference isn't so great that it kept him out of Cooperstown. He might have been considered a more serious candidate, but I highly doubt it'd have got him elected.

The most damaging "what if" to Trucks' career are his missed seasons in 1943-44 (at the ages of 27-28). Trucks' service in the war is noteable, but those should have been the most productive years of his career. We can reasonably speculate his career totals would be closer to 200 wins, 2,000 strikeouts and a 3.30 ERA than they are without those years.

Ed Lopat isn't in the Hall of Fame. Mel Parnell isn't in the Hall of Fame. Harry Brecheen isn't in the Hall of Fame. Billy Pierce isn't in the Hall of Fame. Neither is Mike Garcia, Ellis Kinder, Ewell Blackwell, Ned Garver and a host of other very good starting pitchers of Trucks' era.

Any way you slice it, Trucks is not Hall of Fame material. He was a very good pitcher who missed a few years that could have made his career totals stand out a little more. Playing for the Yankees might have made more people remember him, but it wouldn't have made more people vote for him.

[The Mick]

Great post Chancellor.

Yes. I agree - like so many other "could-have-been-greats" Truck's service put a huge dent in his statistics.

Virgil also has some great minor league records that are also a testament to the kind of ballplayer he could have been if not distracted by the military.

He did the right thing though by serving his country and it makes me respect him (and others like him) even more.

Very few ballplayers nowadays would put "country before career".

[Brad Harris]

Question.

I also noticed that in 1950, Trucks missed most of the season and in 1951 (when he was back), half of his games pitched were relief appearances.

I'm assuming Trucks did not go to Korea; rather, that he got injured somehow. Does anyone know the details?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Originally posted by The Mick
Great post Chancellor.

Yes. I agree - like so many other "could-have-been-greats" Truck's service put a huge dent in his statistics.

Virgil also has some great minor league records that are also a testament to the kind of ballplayer he could have been if not distracted by the military.

He did the right thing though by serving his country and it makes me respect him (and others like him) even more.

Very few ballplayers nowadays would put "country before career".

Is the Baseball Enlists exhibit a permanent one at the HOF in Cooperstown? So many players, like Trucks, gave up so much in defense of our country and its allies during the war. I'm not familiar with the exhibit, per se, but would love to see it permanent and also including service in all the wars, not just WWII, if that's not already the case.

[Cougar]

The war years are probably an even bigger "what-if" than the Tigers vs. the Yankees. Trucks missed his 26 and 27 year-old seasons to the war.

Still, Trucks's best years appear to be very good rather than great. I'd love to have him on my team, but it seems unlikely that he could have been good enough for Cooperstown.

[Zeth]

The vast majority of the ballplayers in World War II, although they certainly were patriotic, were not motivated by patriotism to join the army. They were motivated by draft cards.

I'll disagree with the popular opinion here; I think Virgil is right, he probably would be in the Hall of Fame (or at the very least would spark much more serious debate over his candidacy than he does) if he'd pitched his whole career for the Yankees. Two reasons why:

(1) It would have improved his career won-lost record by 30 wins or so, putting him in HoF territory, and also would have had more big-win seasons, which are crucial for a pitcher's candidacy (ask Blyleven and Kaat) and
(2) He would have been much more noticeable because the Yankees did not have any top-shelf pitchers not named Whitey Ford during most of Trucks's career. His personality would have endeared him to the NY press, too, and that does mean something.

Put those two things together, and I think they would put him in the Hall of Fame. Trucks was a better pitcher than most of the guys Chancellor listed. But he wasn't as good as Jim Kaat or Bert Blyleven, or for that matter as good as Lew Burdette or Don Newcombe. (any of those guys would easily be in the Hall if they had pitched their whole careers for the Yankees of the 50s.) But he was a very good pitcher, and he is remembered by fans who know anything about baseball's history.

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by Chancellor
Question.

I also noticed that in 1950, Trucks missed most of the season and in 1951 (when he was back), half of his games pitched were relief appearances.

I'm assuming Trucks did not go to Korea; rather, that he got injured somehow. Does anyone know the details?

He injured his arm in the third inning of a game on 5/19/50 hurling against Hank Wyse and the A's. After that he was out for the entire rest of the 1950 season. You have to wonder whether that could have made the difference for the Tigers that year? They only finished 3 games behind the Yankees in the pennant race.

[nightal]

Originally posted by Eddie Collins
Good player? Yes

Hall of Famer? No

Touche!

[The Mick]

I just wanted to share that interview we just did with Mr. Virgil Trucks in our newsletter over at the Yankees forum. Mr. Trucks will talk baseball all day and although we focused more on his season with the Yankees - he told me on the phone his heart will always be with the Tigers.

He stated they have "no where to go but up" and he hopes to see a turn around starting this season. He still maintains that as a career Yankee - he could have been HOF material.

You can read the interview and see the press release on his upcoming book "Throwing Heat" in the February issue at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/thehighlander

Enjoy.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by The Mick

I just wanted to share that interview we just did with Mr. Virgil Trucks in our newsletter over at the Yankees forum. Mr. Trucks will talk baseball all day and although we focused more on his season with the Yankees - he told me on the phone his heart will always be with the Tigers.

He stated they have "no where to go but up" and he hopes to see a turn around starting this season. He still maintains that as a career Yankee - he could have been HOF material.

You can read the interview and see the press release on his upcoming book "Throwing Heat" in the February issue at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/thehighlander

Enjoy.

Virgil must be happy now, with his Tigers.

Virgil was a minor star while active, but not a HOFer, and the idea that he would have been a HOFer had he been a career Yankee is wishful thinking. The dominant Yankee teams of the late 40s through 1964 are notable for their relative LACK of HOFers, given their successes. If what Trucks said was true, than Allie Reynolds would be in the HOF.

Now if Trucks had pitched those two years lost to WWII (against normal competition) and had big seasons in each of them (winning 20 in at least one of those seasons), he would have had over 200 wins, and would have been a multiple 20 game winner. Then, if he had won one more game in 1954 and one less game in 1955, he'd have had another 20 win season.

If Trucks had done that, then he would have been a dark horse candidate for the Hall. Trucks pitched in an era where there were relatively few outstanding pitchers in the AL. The NL had Spahn, but who did the AL have? Feller? Yes, he was the best. Newhouser? Yes, he's in the Hall, finally. Bob Lemon? Oddly enough, Bob Lemon may have been the best pitcher in the AL in the 1950s, all things considered. That's it; these are the AL HOF pitchers from Trucks' era. Well, Whitey Ford, but Ford was 12 years younger than Trucks, so he's not a true contemporary.

On the other hand, much of this could be said for Allie Reynolds. If Reynolds had won one more game in 1947 and lost one more game in 1946, he's have another 20 win season. If Reynolds hadn't shuffled between the bullpen and the rotation in his last two years, he well may have won more games. (It's a bit unclear why this happened, by the way.) Had Reynolds come up to the majors one year earlier (he was a 26 year old rookie), he may have gotten to 200 wins, combined with all these other maybes.

[Gee Walker]

Trucks might be in the Hall of Fame today if he pitched in New York City - for the Brooklyn Dodgers. His peak career years nicely overlap the "Boys of Summer" era. This team was built to score runs.

The Dodgers had Don Newcombe as their ace during those years, but their pitching staff wasn't very deep, with either Preacher Roe or Carl Erskine as their #2 and #3 guys, and not much else behind them. Trucks suffered from the lack of offense in the Tigers from 1951 on. He wouldn't have had to worry about that playing for Brooklyn. At the very least, the Dodgers wouldn't have to bring out guys like Hal Gregg to start World Series games.

[KCGHOST]

Virgil was a fine pitcher but no way is he an HoFer. Doesn't matter who he pitched for.

[soberdennis]

Trucks had some good years , including for some decent Detroit teams in the war years before he entered the service. His high for wins was 19 which he achieved twice. His career ERA is decent at just over 3.
One must always wonder about the 52 season. That year he was 5-19, with two no-hitters and 3 shutouts. His ERA was in the high 3's. What would his record have been on the Yanks is just conjecture. It probably would have been better than it was. But probably not spectacular.
The Yanks had some good pitchers back then. I think Reynolds may have been a HOFer ifhis career had been longer. Short career players almost have to have spans like Koufax's to even be considered for the HOF.
Other pitchers have pitched for bad teams and put up HOF numbers. Ted Lyons comes to mind. Trucks did not put up the kind of numbers Lyons did.
Whether his numbers would have been HOF caliber had he played for a better team is just speculation. I would lean towards no.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by soberdennis

Trucks had some good years , including for some decent Detroit teams in the war years before he entered the service. His high for wins was 19 which he achieved twice. His career ERA is decent at just over 3.
One must always wonder about the 52 season. That year he was 5-19, with two no-hitters and 3 shutouts. His ERA was in the high 3's. What would his record have been on the Yanks is just conjecture. It probably would have been better than it was. But probably not spectacular.
The Yanks had some good pitchers back then. I think Reynolds may have been a HOFer ifhis career had been longer. Short career players almost have to have spans like Koufax's to even be considered for the HOF.
Other pitchers have pitched for bad teams and put up HOF numbers. Ted Lyons comes to mind. Trucks did not put up the kind of numbers Lyons did.
Whether his numbers would have been HOF caliber had he played for a better team is just speculation. I would lean towards no.

Pitchers for bad teams pretty much have to have long careers. Ted Lyons was 260-230 lifetime. Nolan Ryan pitched for a lot of bad teams. Eppa Rixey pitched for his share of lousy teams.

Trucks' numbers probably would not have been much better with the Yankees. The Tigers were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the AL for the duration of his career, so playing for another team may not have helped Trucks as much as he thinks it would have. The numbers trucks put up are NOT HOF numbers, and his chances for the HOF with the numbers he actually put up would have been ENHANCED if he played for last place teams.

[soberdennis]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

Pitchers for bad teams pretty much have to have long careers. Ted Lyons was 260-230 lifetime. Nolan Ryan pitched for a lot of bad teams. Eppa Rixey pitched for his share of lousy teams.

Trucks' numbers probably would not have been much better with the Yankees. The Tigers were the 2nd or 3rd best team in the AL for the duration of his career, so playing for another team may not have helped Trucks as much as he thinks it would have. The numbers trucks put up are NOT HOF numbers, and his chances for the HOF with the numbers he actually put up would have been ENHANCED if he played for last place teams.

If you read my post totally, I basically agree with you.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by soberdennis

If you read my post totally, I basically agree with you.

I was commenting on Trucks' assertion, more than anything else. What was Trucks, himself, thinking?

Did Trucks believe that if he played with a better team, he would have had a better record? Or did he believe that if he had the same record on the Yankees, he'd be a HOFer?

I don't know which of these ideas Trucks believes, but I obviously think he's wrong, either way. Trucks may think his career was better than it was because he pitched in an era of rather nondescript AL pitchers, so there were years when he was among the best. Kind of like every year being 1982 when Pete Vuckovich won a Cy Young Award with 18 wins.

One thing I thought of is that if Trucks had two 20-plus win seasons the years he was at war, his career would probably resemble Don Drysdale's. Drysdale, of course, is a controversial pick in some quarters, but he's in the Hall, and he was a big, big star while active. (Drysdale was a guy who got into the HOF because he was famous; one of the few who can say that. Without his fame, Drysdale would have been on the outside looking in.) Even that probably would not have been enough for Trucks, because Trucks WASN'T famous. Don Drysdale and Catfish Hunter are in the HOF; they were famous. Luis Tiant was less famous; he's not in the HOF. Trucks probably would have encountered Tiant's fate.

But, yes, I agree with your posts.