Al Oliver - Hall of Famer?

[Brad Harris]

Al Oliver had more than 2,700 hits and a .303 lifetime average. He also had more than 500 doubles and 1,300 RBI, playing most of his career in neutral or pitcher's parks from 1968-85.

He was a 7-time all star and finished in the top ten in MVP voting several times. He won a World Championship ring with Pittsburgh in 1971.

His career numbers are not dissimilar to Jim Rice except that Oliver hit for average while Rice hit for more power. Oliver's closest career comparison is Steve Garvey (using similarity scores), but what's interesting is that Kirby Puckett - a first-ballot Hall of Famer - retired at the age of 34 with a career most similar to Al Oliver's through the same age. The difference? Puckett retired because of the glaucoma while Oliver continued to play another 4-5 seasons. In fact, Oliver's next season (at age 35 in 1982) is arguably the best season of his career.

Garvey is a popular Hall of Fame candidate. So is Rice. And Puckett was a first-ballot electee?

Why is Al Oliver ignored so much? I believe he should receive some consideration by the Veterans Committee next time. It's too bad this wonderful hitter hasn't been remembered much.

Does anyone else remember Oliver? Does anyone else think he should receive more than a cursory glance, if the likes of Garvey/Rice are considered serious candidates? Does anyone have an educated guess as to why Oliver didn't receive more attention when he became eligible? I mean the guy received a paltry 19 votes out of 444 (4%) in his only year on the ballot.

I think he unfairly got the shaft without the benefit of any real consideration by the writers. Anyone agree? Disagree?

[Captain Cold Nose]

I was an Al Oliver fan. I remember watching him win the batting title while with the Expos. (1982, as mentioned as his best season by Chancellor.) That was a fun team to watch.

I have never understood why Oliver has been so unappreciated. He produced year-in, year-out. Maybe if he was still with Pittsburgh when they won it in 1979 instead of playing with Texas would he have received a little more notice. They guy wasn't flashy, but he was a fine ballplayer. I'd rank him just above Cecil Cooper and on par with Lou Whitaker as someone the HOF voters tragically ignored in recent years.

He deserved far better.

[altan]

No Flash. Al's weakness was that he didn't stand out and he didn't fit in. He didn't hit for very much power, so his HR total is seriously low, so he didn't fit well in the heart of the lineup. He didn't draw a lot of walks and was a fairly slow runner, so he couldn't bat at the front of the lineup. And what contender seriously wants to pay the salary of a perennial lifetime .300 hitter to have them bat in the bottom of your lineup (other than Boston and NY, that is)? So he consistently got stuck with poor or mediocre teams who didn't have anyone better, and that also contributed to him not getting either a lot of runs or RBIs. He's yet another player who comes close, but falls just short due the circumstance of where he played. He falls into the same category as a Mark Grace, who is also a very good ball player who'll never see the inside of the hall without buying a ticket.

Now Jimmy Rice, man did I love him and those old Red Sox. They made me the fan that I have remained to this day. Go Red Sox! Spike the Bambino! But he needed just one more good year to make the cut. He was almost there when his big new contract kicked in and he decided to coast to an early retirement. &*@$&(%)!!! I hate players like that, god forbid Javy get a big long term contract even if he did carry my fantasy team when Piazza broke his pinky nail!

[Eddie Collins]

He won't make it.

[Cougar]

Chancellor summarizes Oliver's case really well, and I totally agree that Oliver deserves much more consideration.

He doesn't mention one salient fact, however -- Oliver was primarily a center fielder throughout his twenties, and played a plurality of his career games there.

He was just an ordinary fielder in CF (perhaps someone can chime in here who actually saw him play CF -- I'm just old enough to remember him as a corner OF/1b), but it's generally agreed that one gets extra credit for playing a skill defensive position well. CF is on the easier end of the hard positions, usually ordered in roughly this order:

C...SS...2b...CF...3b...RF...1b...LF...DH.

Sometimes people say LF is harder than 1b, or 3b is harder than CF. That's debatable, but there's really three tiers:

Hard, primarily defensive: C, SS, 2b

In-between positions, defensive and offensive responsibilities: CF, 3b

Easier positions, primarily offensive: RF, 1b, LF

CF and 3b have a hard time in HOF voting because their responsibilities are a little protean and outside of guys like Mays, Mantle, and Schmidt, it's rare to get the player who's no-questions-asked qualified on both sides of the ledger.

I think CF is even a little trickier because it's exceedingly rare for someone to play a full career there. Once a productive CF loses a step, he tends to get moved to a corner pretty quickly, which tends to make people forget he was a CF (as many do with Oliver, for example, or Andre Dawson).

Also, just another point of information, Oliver was the regular CF on the 1971 WS champion Pirates, less famous than the 1979 team, but probably as good or better. His fellow OF were Clemente and Stargell; I'd stack that OF (Stargell-Oliver-Clemente) up against just about any other one in history.

[The Commissioner]

I actually remember being shocked the year Oliver fell short on the Hall of Fame ballot. I didn't expect him to get elected that year, but to not even receive the minimum number of votes to remain eligible was mind boggling to me.This struck me as one of those cases of the sports writers having short term memory. Perhaps he was hurt but playing the later half of his career with several different ballclubs rather than racking up his impressive career totals in one city where he may have drawn more media attention?

I'd actually take issue with altan's assessment of Oliver's HR total as being "seriously low". Yes, it's low for a power hitter, but 219 is a decent amount for someone with a career batting average over .300. Consider this, he has the same career batting average as Rose, with 27% more homeruns. Obviously, I'm not saying he was the same calibre player that Rose was, but you can see that his home run numbers also aren't paltry by comparison. As a matter of fac,t he also has a similar amount of RBI to Rose with 5000 fewer at bats. Once again, it may not be fair to compare the two on such a limited basis, but it does point out that Oliver did posses a decent power/average combination.

[altan]

Commish, I respect ya man, but that total is an average of less than 12 HRs per year and fewer than 30 doubles. He broke 100 RBIs twice and 100 runs never. Not the numbers for a 3, 4 or 5 hitter, and not the speed for a 1 or 2. If a .303 BA and 12 HRs alone would get you into the Hall of Fame, then Mark Grace is a shoe in. And comparing an alleged heart of the lineup hitter's RBIs to a leadoff hitters isn't really a good idea, as I'm sure in the back of your mind you were aware. We won't even cover the HR's of a contact hitting leadoff man to those of the guy supposed to drive him in.

Oliver had a nice career and was a very good and consistent batter. He didn't really have anything else going for him. And for once I'm happy to see a very good player not get enshrined with the very great players. Can't a guy have a good career without being a HoFer? No offense intended, but he just doesn't belong in the class of the greats, much like a good third of the guys who are there already, unfortunately. But you may take issue with me if you wish. I've got a girlfriend, so I'm used to it.

FIRE GRADY LITTLE!!!

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by altan
...I'm happy to see a very good player not get enshrined with the very great players. Can't a guy have a good career without being a HoFer?

Oh...absolutely.

My outrage is directed at people who would vote in Mark Grace (to beat a dead horse, as an example here) but don't give Al Oliver one ounce of consideration. There'll be some sportswriters who pull this kind of shenanigan soon enough, with Grace retiring this year.

And not just Grace, but Garvey or any other number of similar players. I can concede Rice was better on account of more walks/power and an MVP Award; makes for a better case.

My best guess is that Oliver's late career was spent at first base for the Rangers and Expos - two teams which received scant attention in the late 1970s, early 1980s.

Other than that, I'm at a loss. As Cougar pointed out, I remember Oliver as the line drive-hitting first baseman for Montreal "back in the day."

I'm not arguing that Oliver should be elected per se, but that others who are clearly similar (or not as good) somehow receive greater support - and inexplicably so. Well...inexplicably if the answer isn't related to the fact that most of the more-hyped players spent years in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York as opposed to places like Pittsburgh, Arlington, TX and Montreal.

[The Commissioner]

Like I said, 219 homers is low for a power hitter and perhaps can be considered low for a Hall of Famer. I guess it's just a matter of semantics, but I don't consider to that be a low total in general terms. I also don't want to give the wrong impression. I'm not necessarily pushing Al Oliver for Cooperstown either. However, I do feel he deserves a lot more credit and consideration in voters' minds than he ever received. I could definitely understand if Oliver had remained on the ballot for twenty years and never made it. However, to have been kicked off the island after only one year was an injustice. He won a batting title, an RBI title, was a sevn time All-Star selection, is 25th all-time in doubles, has 2700+ hits and career .300+ BA and yet only received 19 votes? That was just wrong.

[altan]

Yeah, I'll give ya that. He gave enough to the game that he deserved to at least be given the respect that many lesser players have been shown. And I'll be next in line to boycott if Grace gets in just because people seem to like him better. Just exactly who did Oliver spit on to deserve lesser treatment than Grace, who is probably a lesser player based on career achievements? Perhaps it was just the markets he played in, but sports writers cover all markets, so that shouldn't be an excuse, unless they knew that people wouldn't notice their lack of respect to a player in those markets. I guess we just don't know how much what the general public thinks and supposedly knows affects their voting. If they knew he would never get in and knew there would be no great cry of outrage, then perhaps they decided to just get it over with quickly instead of having to keep it up for 20 years. But here's to you, Oliver. You had a very good career, and probably had the potential to be a HoFer had you been in the right place. CHEERS!

[buccosfan]

I watched Al Oliver play many times in the 70's for the Pirates. And I remember when the trade rumors started to spread, he finally spoke out and said "What do they want?". At the time I think he had a bout a .290 lifetime average. He bettered that (to his great credit) in the AL. I remember him as a fine fielder, not a gold glover, but you felt good about Al in center

He just was not the type of player who could strike fear (at least while at Pittsburgh) in the opponents or give his team the big boost it needed. His numbers are definitely there. For my money, I'd say he's close, but he's gonna be overlooked because of the sub-300 home-run total, and Clemente and Stargell, and to a lesser extent Parker and Sanguillen overshadowed him in his prime years.

To me, his numbers and his play were better than Barry Larkin, but I'll bet Larkin gets more consideration when his time comes, because of being a Shortstop.

[Brad Harris]

How does Oliver stack up against other center fielders, though?

Here's some food for thought:

Oliver's 1,341 (career) Runs Created (RC) are the most by a center fielder from 1961-1999. That's almost four full decades!

If you go back one year, to 1960, then Willie Mays jumps ahead of Oliver. If you go forward one year, to 2000, Ken Griffey Jr. does.

But essentially, what this tells me is that Oliver was the most productive center fielder in baseball between Mays and Griffey.

If that's the case, isn't that a powerful argument for his election?

[Brad Harris]

Most Career Runs Created, 1961-1999, by position

C - Carlton Fisk (1,362 RC)
1B - Pete Rose (2,205 RC)
2B - Joe Morgan (1,804 RC)
SS - Robin Yount (1,644 RC)
3B - George Brett (1,869 RC)
LF - Carl Yastrzemski (2,127 RC)
CF - Al Oliver (1,341 RC)
RF - Dave Winfield (1,796 RC)
DH - Paul Molitor (1,869 RC)

Now...dare I be premature in suggesting that, once eligible, Molitor and Rose will both be elected, leaving Oliver as the only player on this list who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

[J W]

That's a great case, but you can see the reason why he wasn't voted in: Other than Fisk, who plays the most specified defensive position out there, he has created quite a few less runs than the rest. That includes the middle infield and hot corner.

He'll always have some sort of shot at it as long as the VC exists; not a good one right now or in the near future, but it's there.

Where would his career Runs Created / Win Shares rank among HOFers?

[buccosfan]

Weren't you listening?????? He never made a mark in his prime years!!!!! THAT IS WHY HE WON"T GET IN!!!


TONY PEREZ IS A FLUKE!

In the words of Neil Young...

"Red means run, Son, numbers add up to nothing"


Believe IT

[NOMAR22]

Originally Posted by altan

Yeah, I'll give ya that. He gave enough to the game that he deserved to at least be given the respect that many lesser players have been shown. And I'll be next in line to boycott if Grace gets in just because people seem to like him better. Just exactly who did Oliver spit on to deserve lesser treatment than Grace, who is probably a lesser player based on career achievements? Perhaps it was just the markets he played in, but sports writers cover all markets, so that shouldn't be an excuse, unless they knew that people wouldn't notice their lack of respect to a player in those markets. I guess we just don't know how much what the general public thinks and supposedly knows affects their voting. If they knew he would never get in and knew there would be no great cry of outrage, then perhaps they decided to just get it over with quickly instead of having to keep it up for 20 years. But here's to you, Oliver. You had a very good career, and probably had the potential to be a HoFer had you been in the right place. CHEERS!

Mark Grace is in no way a HOF. Al Oliver was better.

AVG. G AB R H 2B 3B HRS RBI OBP SLG
AL Oliver.303 2,368 9,049 1,189 2,743 529 77 219 1,326 .344 .451
M.Grace .303 2,245 8,065 1,179 2,445 511 45 173 1,146 .383 .442

Al Oliver 5 times 90 or more runs ,0-100 or more runs 2 200 hits season,
8 times over 180 hits,2 100 rbi season,8 times 80 rbi season,2 times hit 20 or more hrs,11 times batted .300 over season,5 times hit over.320 season,lead league 1982 hits,rbis,avg,mvp season.

Mark Grace 3 times 90 or more runs,1 time 100 runs,0 200-hits season, 7 times 180 hits season,0 times 100 rbis season,6 times 80 rbi season,0-times hit 20 more hrs,9 times batted over.300,3 times batted over.320 season ,never lead the league in hits,rbis or avg.only in 2b.

[Tigerfan1974]

'Fraid not, Sorry Al!

[dgarza]

I'd like to add that, even though he was not flashy or a stand out, Al Oliver was a 7 time All-Star. He won Silver Slugger at 3 different "positions". How many players have done that?

[dgarza]

My general HOF queue for CFers (not exactly sure were I draw the line):

Pete Browning
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Al Oliver
George Van Haltren
Jimmy Ryan
Lip Pike
George Gore
Vada Pinson
Mike Donlin
Wally Berger
Ginger Beaumont
Fred Lynn

[cavalier1968]

Buddy Bell was....the best defensive 3b I ever saw.....


Cav

[Fuzzy Bear]

Oliver has one of the most oddly truncated careers of any player to have a realistic HOF case. He started out as a first baseman, then moved RIGHTWARD on the defensive spectrum to CENTER field. That's a pretty odd shift, dontcha think? Center field requires the kind of skills that one usually doesn't find in a first baseman (speed, throwing arm). Oliver played more games at CF than any other position; he divided the rest of his career between LF and 1B. He never won a Gold Glove at any of these positions, but he was never considered to be a defensive liability, either.

There are many things said about Oliver that aren't true. People say he played on teams that didn't win, but every team but one of Oliver's won more games than they lost. He played on 4 division champs, one of which went all the way (1971). He was traded to Texas, and they never went to the playoffs, but all of Oliver's Texas teams but one posted winning records. At the end of his career with the Expos, those teams posted winning records as well.

Oliver's ultimate problem was that he didn't walk enough to compensate for losing his ability to put the bat on the ball. This was why his career declined fast; he lost the ability to get a hit, and he wasn't patient enough to keep the pitcher honest. This kept him from being more effective than he could have been; despite his BA, his OWP was .599, which is kind of low for a guy with a .300 BA in a long career. He's the kind of guy that would have been in the HOF had he made it to 3,000 hits. Here's the problem: Oliver was 257 hits away from the 3K mark at age 38. To hang in there, he would have had to have been more disciplined at the plate, but to have been more disciplined at the plate would have meant that Oliver was a better player then what he actually was. He's borderline, and he deserved more respect then he got. I'm not convinced he deserves the HOF, but I won't be bent out of shape if he ever gets there.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Al Oliver was a very good player. I don't endorse him for the HOF, but he's certainly one of the best one-and-done candidates of all-time. Speaking of which, to those of you who think he received unfair treatment as compared to Mark Grace, Grace has since gotten the one-and-done treatment as well. To those of you who compare him to Kirby Puckett, I think you have a reasonable point. Through age 35 (the age at which Puckett retired), the two have a similarity score of 923. This is appropriate in that they were truly similar players - center fielders who primarily hit for average, didn't walk much, and had reasonable, though not great, power. There are, however, some differences between them that shed light on why Puckett sailed into the HOF and Oliver never got serious consideration:

1. What they each did after age 35 was night and day different. A freak vision problem forced Puckett into a highly publicized early retirement while he was still on top of his game. Though it will remain a mystery how Puckett's decline phase would've gone, he gets remembered as the .314 hitter with 99 RBIs that he went out as. He is seen as a guy who could've reached 3,000 hits. Oliver, on the other hand, did precious little to help his cause after his big 1982 season at age 35. If I'm not mistaken, he never officially retired, but was forced out after simply going unsigned. That type of exit usually goes unnoticed. He is seen as a guy who tried for 3,000 hits and fell short.

2. Puckett was a bigger star and was perceived as a better player. I think he gets bonus points on his HOF resume from the voters for his popularity and reputation. He was literally a perennial All-Star, and was the biggest star on the World Champion Twins. Oliver, on the other hand, was a more occasional All-Star, and was merely a supporting cast member on the '71 Bucs.

Fair or not, I think that largely explains the difference in how each has been treated by the BBWAA. I brought up Al Oliver in a Dave Parker thread recently because I think he has almost as good of a HOF case as Parker, who is a serious candidate himself. I still say no to Oliver, but he's much closer than his reputation would suggest.

[henrich]

I love Al Oliver and I support his case for the HOF.

For the H-factor comparison

Name Pos H-Factor
Puckett CF 10,113
Oliver CF 10,157 I think the previous post explains why he didn't make it.
Parker RF 12,494 Off field issues?
Grace 1B 8985 wrong side of the gray area.

I think Oliver and Parker deserve enshrinement and Grace does not. Puckett barely gets in...and so should Oliver, though by the writer's votes one wouldn't know that

[rsuriyop]

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally Posted by rsuriyop

Although I wouldn't endorse Oliver's selection into the HOF, I also wouldn't mind all that much should he ever make it in. To me, he's as much a borderline candidate as anyone. I do think, however, that there are better CFer's out there who are more worthy and probably at least as unappreciated as Oliver ever was if not more so. Reggie Smith and Jimmy Wynn are two names that come immediately to mind as they were both direct contemporaries of his. The former seemed to have virtually no weaknesses whatsoever and the latter was a power hitter who drew tons of walks.

I agree that Reggie Smith was better than Oliver; I'm not sure about Wynn, but I can be persuaded.