Is Psudo Science is killing hitters....

[1chapterahead]

and leaving newbie dads scratching their heads wondering if this really needs to be that difficult?

My thought is-- What you are witnessing on some of these threads is what happens when you artificially change the balance of nature through edicts...

If I can paraphrase a quote from a friend: "If step 1 is follow their advice, than step 2 is join soccer (or volleyball, golf, etc)"

[whoisonit]

Originally Posted by 1chapterahead

If I can paraphrase a quote from a friend: "If step 1 is follow their advice, than step 2 is join soccer "

And that is exactly what happens too. What you see in these threads is the reason kids RUN from organized youth baseball in droves with each progressive grade.

Makes you wonder how in the world Cobb, Ruth, et al, ever learned to hit as kids without all these overbearing 'experts'.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by whoisonit

Makes you wonder how in the world Cobb, Ruth, et al, ever learned to hit as kids without all these overbearing 'experts'.

It does indeed....

[R00STER]

I'm not going to lie, it has been really frustrating to me as a newcomer, trying to figure out what to believe. There are good, intelligent people that are convinced they know the "right way" but for every one of those, there is another "expert" who says the first guy is clueless. You end up like I am now, stuck trying to figure out which expert seems to be the REAL expert. I really do sometimes wonder how guys in the "old days" just figured it out.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with people wanting to discuss the "finer points" on an internet forum...I'm just saying it CAN be overwhelming to a dummy like me.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

It does indeed....

Fortunately the "overbearing experts" are not as relevant as they want to think.


It is pretty comical actually.



My favorite is when any of the "overbearing experts" call out collegiate coaches, professional coaches.




I feel bad for some of these guys students(assuming they actually teach hitting to anyone, which in some cases is pretty unfortunate) Running "experiments" on the students just to justify a point on an internet message board.

[darivero]

Growing up in the 60's, there was no travel baseball, no metal bats, there were no hitting gurus, we learned by playing for the neighborhood park's Little League Team, that was run by a park employee, he had no agenda for getting his kid to play shortstop and bat 4th...he just did what was right for the team...and we learned by watching and imitating MLB players and then we played street or pickup park baseball year round. We would just toss the ball up in the air and hit it, we did this 1000 times a day, then we played Indian ball all day long and every now and then we played a pickup game in the street or in a park….the next day we did it again; all with wooden bats. And somehow I made my high school team and a college team, imagine that! Dave

[JJA]

Originally Posted by R00STER

I'm not going to lie, it has been really frustrating to me as a newcomer, trying to figure out what to believe. There are good, intelligent people that are convinced they know the "right way" but for every one of those, there is another "expert" who says the first guy is clueless. You end up like I am now, stuck trying to figure out which expert seems to be the REAL expert. I really do sometimes wonder how guys in the "old days" just figured it out.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with people wanting to discuss the "finer points" on an internet forum...I'm just saying it CAN be overwhelming to a dummy like me.

Rooster, you're not dumb. Many of the posts on boards like these have little intellectual content, and are often highly inaccurate and often use jargon simply to impress others. It's no surprise you and I'm sure many others are confused. I can assure you that many of the folks writing the stuff aren't much better themselves.

All I can tell you is to figure it out for yourself. It will take a while, but if you have enough patience, you'll get there. In reality, teaching the baseball swing isn't nearly as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. You don't need to dissect down to the minute level to teach your kid to hit.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions. I can absolutely assure you your questions aren't dumb.

-JJA

[GetYourBestSwing]

Originally Posted by darivero

Growing up in the 60's, there was no travel baseball, no metal bats, there were no hitting gurus, we learned by playing for the neighborhood park's Little League Team, that was run by a park employee, he had no agenda for getting his kid to play shortstop and bat 4th...he just did what was right for the team...and we learned by watching and imitating MLB players and then we played street or pickup park baseball year round. We would just toss the ball up in the air and hit it, we did this 1000 times a day, then we played Indian ball all day long and every now and then we played a pickup game in the street or in a park….the next day we did it again; all with wooden bats. And somehow I made my high school team and a college team, imagine that! Dave

There are no hitting gurus now.

Those are made up terms.


There are no CAMPS. Those are made up terms.

The whole thinking of CAMPS, gurus, is extremely childish. The idea that one of these styles of hitting is going to create professional players or all-american college players-


Oh man.

I will admit. It is pretty entertaining to watch from a distance, so I appreciate the board- and the CAMPS- and the GURUS- and self-proclaimed experts. FREE ENTERTAINMENT.

[scorekeeper]

Originally Posted by whoisonit

And that is exactly what happens too. What you see in these threads is the reason kids RUN from organized youth baseball in droves with each progressive grade.

When you make statements like that on a baseball board, you have to expect to be asked for some kind of numbers to back up the statement. I believe too many people misinterpret kids playing in other sports as leaving baseball forever. While I’m sure that happens, the only reason it seems to be happening more now, is because it is normal for baseball to be a year ‘round sport.

To me, its more likely kids RUN from organized youth baseball in droves because they want a break from it, than because they’ve been hammered by gurus. Adults have turned baseball into a freakin’ year ‘round job for 9YO’s, and that’s what I believe is driving them away as much as anything.

Makes you wonder how in the world Cobb, Ruth, et al, ever learned to hit as kids without all these overbearing 'experts'.

I’ll bet that if the WWW and high speed photography were around back in 1880, by the time Ty got old enough to think about playing pro ball, he would have been a very different hitter.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by GetYourBestSwing

Fortunately the "overbearing experts" are not as relevant as they want to think.

Several thoughts....

There is good information here....

But... most in the game who coach at a high level don't know many who are "experts" here. In many posts I have suggested anyone wanting to really learn how to teach the game and put all this in perspective needs to go to a high level coaching clinic like the World Baseball Convention.... I would also suggest a MLB spring training and follow the coaches around. I did this with the Pirates for several years when I started coaching HS and found it very valuable.

Last, while much of the information here is very technical I would be leery of those who have not tested their information on the field .... with players ......as a coach..... for a number of years. Many experts here are just proud dads.... CB and I have dealt with hundreds of them over the years.

[whoisonit]

Originally Posted by darivero

Growing up in the 60's, there was no travel baseball, no metal bats, there were no hitting gurus, we learned by playing for the neighborhood park's Little League Team, that was run by a park employee, he had no agenda for getting his kid to play shortstop and bat 4th...he just did what was right for the team...and we learned by watching and imitating MLB players and then we played street or pickup park baseball year round. We would just toss the ball up in the air and hit it, we did this 1000 times a day, then we played Indian ball all day long and every now and then we played a pickup game in the street or in a park….the next day we did it again; all with wooden bats. And somehow I made my high school team and a college team, imagine that! Dave

Sadly, those days have been destroyed forever by the type you see on here. When ever I look at what's going on here I think of my favorite quote -

"Baseball was made for kids, and grown-ups only screw it up"
(Bob Lemon)

Originally Posted by GetYourBestSwing

It is pretty comical actually.

It would be if not for the destructive evidence found in the dwindling numbers of kids playing AND enjoying baseball.

Is it any wonder the best players are coming from third world countries where the kids play pick-up ball in bare feet and use taped up milk cartons and cardboard for gloves ?

[1chapterahead]

I'm a proud dad, not an expert.... I find it harder and harder to share the kind of information that I've found to be helpful in my journey. The information that I try to share is just good old,,, do this and try this and look for this and than ask for feedback....

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by whoisonit

Sadly, those days have been destroyed forever by the type you see on here. When ever I look at what's going on here I think of my favorite quote -

I would offer there are serious coaches here that do not take this so serious.

The common denominator seems to be new dads who lose perspective of the game and feel their son is more than just a kid playing ball. Based on my experience most of these kids walk away from the game prematurely due to over bearing parents...

One only needs to look at the absurd level displayed by many dads on boards like this to understand the perspective at which they operate.... It all translates....

[GetYourBestSwing]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

Several thoughts....

There is good information here....

But... most in the game who coach at a high level don't know many who are "experts" here. In many posts I have suggested anyone wanting to really learn how to teach the game and put all this in perspective needs to go to a high level coaching clinic like the World Baseball Convention.... I would also suggest a MLB spring training and follow the coaches around. I did this with the Pirates for several years when I started coaching HS and found it very valuable.

Last, while much of the information here is very technical I would be leery of those who have not tested their information on the field .... with players ......as a coach..... for a number of years. Many experts here are just proud dads.... CB and I have dealt with hundreds of them over the years.

The term "expert" is used pretty loosely on internet hitting message boards.


Testing information on the field to incorporate it into a kids swing - is a must.


Testing information on the field to incorporate it into a kids swing - because you are trying to prove a point to a certain CAMP and run from message board to message board trying out concepts you do not understand, nor are capable of understanding- is NOT a must and is BAD.


There is a difference.

You can see the thoughts and views changing daily- which is outstanding if you are trying to learn, that process must occur. But you do not put out an instructional DVD one day with drills and then the next day state how you feel drills can actually be harmful.


Your spot on- going to coaching conventions, everything you suggested, great idea.



As a college coach- I get paid to evaluate, teach the game of baseball. Overbearing parents, which at the collegiate level is pretty assanine, do come along from time to time.

Our answer- "Mr. X, what do you for a living? Oh, your a loan officer, fantastic. The next time you are about to give a person a loan I'd like to evaluate that information and see if you really should or not. I have noticed your giving out some pretty shady loans lately."




That shuts em up pretty fast. The point is given. Stay out of my office, I will stay out of yours. Don't like it, have your kid play somewhere else.



So my thinking goes along with yours- want to train your kid to hit? take him to someone who does it for a living or if you are going to do it yourself, go to clinics like you suggest. Don't fall into a make believe CAMP.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by 1chapterahead

I'm a proud dad, not an expert.... I find it harder and harder to share the kind of information that I've found to be helpful in my journey. The information that I try to share is just good old,,, do this and try this and look for this and than ask for feedback....

Chap, the best thing is a bucket of balls, a couple of hours, your boy (or DD), bat, and and ice cream stand on the way home....

[GetYourBestSwing]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

I would offer there are serious coaches here that do not take this so serious.

The common denominator seems to be new dads who lose perspective of the game and feel their son is more than just a kid playing ball. Based on my experience most of these kids walk away from the game prematurely due to over bearing parents...

One only needs to look at the absurd level displayed by many dads on boards like this to understand the perspective at which they operate.... It all translates....

Good post.

[RKKay]

Unfortunately, most sports, and much of life, is directly influenced by ego. Whether it is "my son is better than yours," "my team is better than yours," "I'm stronger than you, smarter than you, more popular than you," etc., that is what it comes down to.

[whoisonit]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

I would offer there are serious coaches here that do not take this so serious.

Yes, without a doubt. I could have worded that more precisely as it seems we're both talking about ...;

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

The common denominator seems to be new dads who lose perspective of the game and feel their son is more than just a kid playing ball. Based on my experience most of these kids walk away from the game prematurely due to over bearing parents...

Well said. This has been my experience as well. It breaks my heart too, I might add.

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by RKKay

Unfortunately, most sports, and much of life, is directly influenced by ego. Whether it is "my son is better than yours," "my team is better than yours," "I'm stronger than you, smarter than you, more popular than you," etc., that is what it comes down to.

Maybe, but I know my son can beat up yours.... LOL just kidding.

It's all about EGO and vicarious living.
Many years ago I had a dad at a practice yelling long-distant instructions to his very-skilled son. The kid was dying with embarrassment...

After the game, the guy came over, offered his hand and said, "Coach you're doing a hell of a job, what can I do to help?"

To which I said, "Stay home."

[1chapterahead]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

Chap, the best thing is a bucket of balls, a couple of hours, your boy (or DD), bat, and and ice cream stand on the way home....

That's the partnership we have formed, and one in which I'd like to help others form.

There are many here that I hold in high regards. One in particular is Stealth. He may not have always been on the popular side of the debate "here", but he and his son have continued to search and work hard. And their partnership has led them to some very special moments.

I think the information that he (Stealth) shares tends to get brushed aside as "camp" info instead of just good info... Again, I think the more science minded need to start taking note here... JMHO

[Jake Patterson]

Originally Posted by 1chapterahead

That's the partnership we have formed, and one in which I'd like to help others form.

There are many here that I hold in high regards. One in particular is Stealth. He may not have always been on the popular side of the debate "here", but he and his son have continued to search and work hard. And their partnership has led them to some very special moments.

I think the information that he (Stealth) shares tends to get brushed aside as "camp" info instead of just good info... Again, I think the more science minded need to start taking note here... JMHO

As you probably know, I have two sons. My youngest coached baseball and my oldest is nearly 30. We figured it out on the field and hope most dads look at this as the primary way to learn.

[1chapterahead]

Originally Posted by Jake Patterson

We figured it out on the field and hope most dads look at this as the primary way to learn.

YES! but we can broaden our network of friends to help us reach that goal. There is nothing wrong with experimenting and sharing what works.

My problem is with the folks who never try yet tell you it won't work...

Speaking from the heart-- It get's to be very frustrating when you want to help others and you feel as if the machine needs to silence you. This is meant for no one in particular.

[scorekeeper]

Originally Posted by 1chapterahead

He may not have always been on the popular side of the debate "here", but he and his son have continued to search and work hard. And their partnership has led them to some very special moments.

I’m not on anyone’s side here, but the way you said that, seems to me to be saying other people, no matter what side they were on in any particular debate, couldn’t have allowed them to have those same “special moments”. I don’t think you really meant to convey that, but you have to be careful how you say things.

Originally Posted by 1chapterahead

. . . Again, I think the more science minded need to start taking note here... JMHO

This is the kind of debate that takes place every year about this time. The MLB season’s over, which should mean baseball for most of the world should be over too. That means that on these forums, everyone has to talk in abstracts and assumptions rather than things that are actually happening. That’s a situation that always favors science.

[Chris O'Leary]

I'd like to weigh in on the question of over-complicating stuff.

I'm still participating in the thread from he!! (Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such) because it's dealing with what I think is a very important question; whether the whipping action of the bat is powered more by the action of the wrists or by momentum. IMO, that is a very important question (because you can really screw up a swing by teaching someone to activate muscles that should be loose) but one one that I think was answered in just 2-3 pretty good pages. Now, the thread has devolved in a standard, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin," discussion.

I'm still involved with it just to (try to) understand both sides of the argument, but am just as bored as you are.

However, when I discuss the topic of whip with a student or client, I strip it way down to do this, don't do this, and watch the barrel of the bat whip around.

[1chapterahead]

Originally Posted by scorekeeper

I don’t think you really meant to convey that, but you have to be careful how you say things.

You're correct, special moments can be as simple as just having your kid still want to hang out with you.