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Thread: Ruling on "runner hit by ball while standing on third base"??

  1. #1

    Ruling on "runner hit by ball while standing on third base"??

    I was watching my grandson's 9 yr old team play in a tournament this weekend and a runner was hit by a batted ball while he was standing on third base. Part of the runner's body was in foul territory while he was standing on the base. Ump said the ball was in foul territory when it hit the runner while on the base, so ump called him safe. They scored it a single and batter was also allowed to stay at first.

    This doesn't make sense to me. If ball is foul when it hits runner on the base and runner is not called out, shouldn't the batter have to go back at bat on a foul ball??

    Ruling please!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prouddadof5 View Post
    I was watching my grandson's 9 yr old team play in a tournament this weekend and a runner was hit by a batted ball while he was standing on third base. Part of the runner's body was in foul territory while he was standing on the base. Ump said the ball was in foul territory when it hit the runner while on the base, so ump called him safe. They scored it a single and batter was also allowed to stay at first.

    This doesn't make sense to me. If ball is foul when it hits runner on the base and runner is not called out, shouldn't the batter have to go back at bat on a foul ball??

    Ruling please!!

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    If the runner and ball were over foul territory when they touched, it's a foul ball. If the runner is hit while over fair territory, he is out and the batter gets first.

    Unless he is hit with an infield-fly, in which case; he would not be out, but the batter is, on the I-F.

    The base is not a safety zone for other batted balls, you are out even if hit while touching the base, if you are hit over fair territory.

  3. #3
    Unless the ball first passes an infielder. From 7.08f, a runner is out when:

    He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacjacatk View Post
    Unless the ball first passes an infielder. From 7.08f, a runner is out when:
    True, I wasn't trying to cover everything though.

    BTW, it is only judged to have "passed" an infielder if it actually goes through his legs, or passes within his reach, AND hits the runner when he is immediately behind the fielder.

    From the MLB Umpire Manual;

    The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and 5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder.

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    It seems like there are two possible rulings in this situation. The ball is fair when it hits the runner and the runner is out, OR the ball is foul when it hits the runner, and it's a foul ball. I don't know how it can be a foul ball and a single at the same time.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    It seems like there are two possible rulings in this situation. The ball is fair when it hits the runner and the runner is out, OR the ball is foul when it hits the runner, and it's a foul ball. I don't know how it can be a foul ball and a single at the same time.
    Exactly. Of course, 9 y/o ball is the entry level for umpires as well as players, and you'll get rulings like this. And it's also the entry level for parents, who often haven't developed a long range perspective about their kids' baseball careers, and get out of shape when rulings like this are made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa Major View Post
    Exactly. Of course, 9 y/o ball is the entry level for umpires as well as players, and you'll get rulings like this. And it's also the entry level for parents, who often haven't developed a long range perspective about their kids' baseball careers, and get out of shape when rulings like this are made.
    The parents expect the umpires to work with the precision of MLB umpires. When I coached at this level expectations of umpiring was part of the parental team meeting. Criticizing umpires was off limits.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa Major View Post
    Exactly. Of course, 9 y/o ball is the entry level for umpires as well as players, and you'll get rulings like this. And it's also the entry level for parents, who often haven't developed a long range perspective about their kids' baseball careers, and get out of shape when rulings like this are made.
    This was a younger umpire. From where we were standing, looked like runner was standing directly on the base and ball was in fair territory when it hit him. Obviously PU didn't know the rule because he said runner was safe because he was on the bag when ball hit him. When everyone started arguing this wasn't correct, he then started claiming ball hit runner on his side which was in foul territory. Coaches and parents were yelling and league director was finally called in.....(it got kind of ugly.) They came to agreement that he was safe because PU said runner was in foul territory when he was hit. (judgement call)....But, they also said that batter could stay on first. Again, more yelling and arguing that this wasn't correct, but the call stood. According to the rules you guys posted here, batter should have gone back to home plate because play was called foul ball. The two umpires wouldn't even listen to anyone trying to expain the rule and said runner stays on first.

    Too bad the kids and spectators had to witness all this. I hate to see coaches and parents yelling and going crazy over missed calls in youth sports. IMO It may have been prevented if league would have gotten more experienced umps.......this was the championship game.

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    I think its important for coaches to remind themselves that the umpires are volunteers and most do not have experience or knowhow to umpire perfectly. But without them we wouldn't get to play at all. When I get a bad call like this I get upset, of course, but I remind myself that the umpires are not perfect. Does it stink that this happened in a championship game? Of course. But you get what you pay for and when they are free you can't expect perfect calls. The coaches should handle it better. Not too mention that the kids are all seeing this and will remember how the coaches/parents reacted rather than the actual play.

    There's games where I want to just walk off the field or rip the umpire a new one but we aren't just teaching kids baseball, we are teaching them life lessons and how to act like upstanding citizens.

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    I would have bet my left arm that the base was a safety zone for the runner.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST View Post
    I would have bet my left arm that the base was a safety zone for the runner.
    I mean no disrespect because Iíve been wrong more than a few times about baseball rules in my life. Iím gonna guess youíve been a fan of the game for a long time, but how many times have you ever looked that particular rule up? For that matter, how many times have you read the rule book?

    Even though Iím literally in the rule book looking for something a couple times a week at least and have read every rule at least 5 or 6 times, itís a lot different than reading them and studying them, having to pass a test on them, and applying them in for real games many times each year.

    What Iíve learned to do, is never accept anyoneís unsupported statement about the rules without finding it and reading it for myself, no matter who they are. Even with the outstanding reputation jbooth has, when he says something is such and such, while I believe him unequivocally more often than not, I still very often take a look for myself when he doesnít document what he says with rule quotes.

    Hereís the quote.

    OBR - 7.08 Any runner is out whenó
    (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;
    Rule 7.08(f) Comment: If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead.
    If runner is touched by an Infield Fly when he is not touching his base, both runner and batter are out.


    Back to my original question, have you ever looked that particular rule up? My guess is, youíre normal and have always relied on the word of those you felt were authorities. I have to admit that its become a whole lot easier with the WWW being around. Every year I go to MLB.com and grab a complete copy of OBR, the NCAA site and get theirs, and now the NFHS rules are available on their site too. Its really neat to be able to look something up, and its surprising to find out how many times what someone thinks, is wrong.
    The pitcher whoís afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  12. #12
    I looked that rule up before and totally missed the part about being out even if standing on base, probably because that isn't why I was looking at it. So once again I learn something new thanks guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
    I think its important for coaches to remind themselves that the umpires are volunteers and most do not have experience or knowhow to umpire perfectly. But without them we wouldn't get to play at all. When I get a bad call like this I get upset, of course, but I remind myself that the umpires are not perfect. Does it stink that this happened in a championship game? Of course. But you get what you pay for and when they are free you can't expect perfect calls. The coaches should handle it better. Not too mention that the kids are all seeing this and will remember how the coaches/parents reacted rather than the actual play.

    There's games where I want to just walk off the field or rip the umpire a new one but we aren't just teaching kids baseball, we are teaching them life lessons and how to act like upstanding citizens.
    We hire paid umpires in our Little League, and they are terrible. I'd rather save the money and use volunteer umps. The worst part is that it's hard on the kids when the strike zone changes constantly, and they don't know the rules any better than a volunteer would.

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    In one youth league, we coaches were required to "ump" one game during each season. This puts an immediate stop to any ump grumping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgrexon View Post
    I looked that rule up before and totally missed the part about being out even if standing on base, probably because that isn't why I was looking at it. So once again I learn something new thanks guys
    Thatís a great observation, and I believe an accurate one for most folks as well.

    Many times when Iím looking at the rule book, Iím looking for something specific, so unless what Iím reading pertains exactly to the reason Iím looking in the 1st place, very often I wonít read ever single word and punctuation mark to try to absorb something else.

    Something along those same lines, is someone looking in the book for something specific, and when they find something about it, they stop. Unfortunately, many times thereís a bit more to it, and in order to get the real meaning, youíve got to go someplace entirely different in the book and consider both things.
    The pitcher whoís afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    We hire paid umpires in our Little League, and they are terrible. I'd rather save the money and use volunteer umps. The worst part is that it's hard on the kids when the strike zone changes constantly, and they don't know the rules any better than a volunteer would.
    Do you hire them from a local umpire’s assn, or do you just pay people to do the games? In my experience, the local assn loves it when the kiddieball organizations have them supply umpires for their games. The reason is, it’s a great place for beginning umps to get some experience, and yet get paid a bit for their time and trouble. The advantage I see in doing that is, those umps are getting training. While they may start out being pretty bad, they get better rapidly, and move up through the ranks according to their skill and education.

    Just paying people to umpire doesn’t insure much of anything. You might see someone looking to make a few bucks and doesn’t make much effort to learn the rules, someone who doesn’t show up, or worse, someone who has a vested interest in the game.
    The pitcher whoís afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Do you hire them from a local umpire’s assn, or do you just pay people to do the games? In my experience, the local assn loves it when the kiddieball organizations have them supply umpires for their games. The reason is, it’s a great place for beginning umps to get some experience, and yet get paid a bit for their time and trouble. The advantage I see in doing that is, those umps are getting training. While they may start out being pretty bad, they get better rapidly, and move up through the ranks according to their skill and education.

    Just paying people to umpire doesn’t insure much of anything. You might see someone looking to make a few bucks and doesn’t make much effort to learn the rules, someone who doesn’t show up, or worse, someone who has a vested interest in the game.
    We hire them through an association. And you're probably right. We probably get less experienced umps. I get frustrated because they often seem disinterested and going through the motions. Most likely they feel like they're just 9 and 10 year olds, so it doesn't matter. But to the kids, it matters. And I'm not talking about all umps. We've had some excellent umps and I always mention them to our league president in the hopes of gettng them again. I know they aren't going to be perfect, and it's tough to make calls in the field from behind the plate. But so few have consistent strike zones. It really makes it hard on the kids. Sorry, I'm done venting.

  18. #18
    I'm all for new beginner umps working rec games or even tournaments, but I think the more experienced umps that would know the rules better, should work a championship game. Coaches and parents are a little more short fused during a championship game when bad calls are made.
    It's bull crap when coaches and parents start yelling and screaming in front of the kids because of a bad call. What kind of sportsmanship is this teaching the kids. I was watching some of the kids while this was going on. They just kept looking back and forth at each other and shrugging their shoulders. I wonder what was going through their heads.....These were 9 yr olds that had been playing for three days in the hot sun. They were probably just wishing everyone would shut up so they could get the game over with so they could go home.

    Just saying, better umps in championship games making less bad calls makes for less yelling and screaming and a much more enjoyable game to watch.
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    I used to ump little league games as a kid and I agree its pretty sad how worked up some coaches and parents get. Unfortunately, when you know you're right, sometimes the only thing that works as an umpire is yelling back at them. Nothing shuts up a parent faster than a 14 year old kid telling them to go read the rule book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    We hire them through an association. And you're probably right. We probably get less experienced umps. I get frustrated because they often seem disinterested and going through the motions. Most likely they feel like they're just 9 and 10 year olds, so it doesn't matter. But to the kids, it matters. And I'm not talking about all umps. We've had some excellent umps and I always mention them to our league president in the hopes of gettng them again. I know they aren't going to be perfect, and it's tough to make calls in the field from behind the plate. But so few have consistent strike zones. It really makes it hard on the kids. Sorry, I'm done venting.
    Hey, thereís nothing wrong with venting about this topic. Iím glad to see that below the surface you have a realistic view about whatís going on.

    Perceived disinterest on the part of the officials is something youíre gonna see at every level below MLB. One of the reasons for that, is that thereís a distinct shortage of umps, and even a more distinct shortage of good ones. The way it works is, the highest level games are gonna get the first shot at the good ones. At this particular time of the year, its more likely the lower levels will get a higher caliber of official because HS games are in essence over.

    But Iím serious when I tell you it isnít gonna stop. Even at the HS level, unless you happen to go to a school where the money tapís open, youíll see 2 umpires at the V level, but only 1 for MS, Fr, And JV. Heck, over the years Iíve seen the V coach yank the JV ump over to the V game and leave the JV with no ump. In our officialís assn, the requirements to be a V ump are higher than the other levels too.

    I happen to agree with you that it doesnít matter if its t-ball or MLB, to the participants, that gameís important, and having officials who donít share that feeling is insulting. But, the reality is, most people donít hold a lower level in the same esteem they hold a higher one. (:
    The pitcher whoís afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST View Post
    I would have bet my left arm that the base was a safety zone for the runner.
    And, you would have been able to keep your arm if it was an ASA softball game, but you'd have to cut it off for baseball, unless it was an infield-fly that hit him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    If the runner and ball were over foul territory when they touched, it's a foul ball. If the runner is hit while over fair territory, he is out and the batter gets first.

    Unless he is hit with an infield-fly, in which case; he would not be out, but the batter is, on the I-F.

    The base is not a safety zone for other batted balls, you are out even if hit while touching the base, if you are hit over fair territory.
    Last I checked the base means a fair ball also as does on the line. The real thing here is .... how do you get hit by a ball? Isn't the natural reaction to move one way or the other?
    ďIf there was ever a man born to be a hitter it was me.Ē - Ted Williams
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    Quote Originally Posted by korp View Post
    Last I checked the base means a fair ball also as does on the line. The real thing here is .... how do you get hit by a ball? Isn't the natural reaction to move one way or the other?
    Just because the bases are in fair territory, that doesn’t mean a batted ball that hits a player standing on either 1st or 3rd is fair.

    Sure the natural reaction is to move out of the way, but stuff happens. The next time you’re on 3rd and the 3rd baseman farts just as the pitcher let’s go of the ball, I won’t blame you if for an instant you don’t pay attention to the batter and the ball.
    The pitcher whoís afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by korp View Post
    Last I checked the base means a fair ball also as does on the line. The real thing here is .... how do you get hit by a ball? Isn't the natural reaction to move one way or the other?
    If you have one foot on the base, and one foot in foul territory, and you get hit on the foot that is in foul territory, you are not out. If you get hit on the foot that is on the base, you are out because you were hit by a fair ball, while on fair ground. The fact that you were touching the base is not relevant.

    You could be safe if it hit the foot that was on the base, IF the ball had just passed through or by a fielder who was right on the line.

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    Same but different

    This question came up today...Baserunner going from 2nd to third...3rd baseman makes attempt on batted ball but does not make contact of any kind with the ball and the shortstop playing deep in the hole could have made a play, but the ball hits the baserunner. The rules says
    OBR - 7.08 Any runner is out when—
    (f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder.
    The ball has been deemed to have passed an infielder...Is baserunner out on a dead ball?

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