Active Hands and Bat Drag

[Chris O'Leary]

I wanted to throw something out there, in an attempt to square the circle about bat drag and the use of the hands.

Fact One: Bat drag is a major problem with young hitters and probably the thing that keeps the largest number of people from progressing to the next level of hitting.

Fact Two: If you talk to pretty much anyone at the major league level, they will emphasize that the hands have to lead the swing. They emphasize that the hips and hands, not the hips and shoulders, drive the swing.

We know that in some/many cases taking the hands to the ball will lead to disconnection. However, I believe that if you do the right thing with the hands, you will end up reducing the likelihood of bat drag while also not creating too much disconnection. Of course, if your hands are too active you will end up disconnecting.

It may be that "take the hands/knob to the ball" evolved as a rough way of getting the proper position of the hands relative to the back shoulder.

Does that make sense?

[wjraymond11]

[QUOTE=Chris O'Leary;1245883]

Fact Two: If you talk to pretty much anyone at the major league level, they will emphasize that the hands have to lead the swing. They emphasize that the hips and hands, not the hips and shoulders, drive the swing.
QUOTE]


The hands drive the shoulders. If you just open the shoulder you'll have a long swing and dip the bat head. You are correct.

[Chris O'Leary]

The hands drive the shoulders. If you just open the shoulder you'll have a long swing and dip the bat head. You are correct.

I think this is only true if the hands lose their position relative to the back shoulder.

IMO thinking about leading with the hands CAN (and I mean CAN not WILL) ensure the proper positioning of the hands relative to the back shoulder.

[Swing Coach]

Good post! Nobody has been a more active proponent of this than me. But it is not an all or nothing fix. I see the young kids with bat drag because their hands lag behind. Their fix is to focus more on hands going to the ball in an effort to catch up or "connect" with the elbow/shoulder.

Then I see a lot of older players whose hands lead the way too much (because they have been drilled to "throw the hands" and "quick hands" by their coaches. These kids need to start their lower half sooner in order to even everything out.

It is certainly a fine line. But the goal should always be to teach away both sets of flaws. .....And, I don't necessarily hear a lot of professionals advocating that the hands lead the way...moreso they just aren't advocating that the hands do little or "are just along for the ride". Just watch the explosion of an mlb swing and the quick rotation. That comes natural, so obviously, they must also emphasize to fire the hands to stay in sync with that quick of a lower half.

The pro's have made it to where they are because of the law of natural selection. They often can't talk about why they hit so well and have never been taught how to have an elite swing....but nonetheless, one reason they have survived is because their bodies figured out they must move a certain way to be successful at hitting 95mph pitches, change-ups and sliders. And that certain way does not include bat drag or leading the way with the hands.

[jbooth]

The hands drive the shoulders. If you just open the shoulder you'll have a long swing and dip the bat head. You are correct.

Baloney. That statement is anatomically, physiologically, and kinesiologically incorrect as well as simply not true just by observing any MLB hitter swing the bat.

They all load their hands. That stretches the muscles that are around the front shoulder. They load back to get a stretch-reflex action. The muscles stretch and then reflexively contract when the shoulder moves as the hands finish their load. When the shoulder turns the hands move. It's an ABSOLUTE FACT.

IMO, you are confusing opening the shoulder before the hands load, and/or before the hips turn.

His hands and shoulder move in exact synch. The hands don't start to move from arm action until bat lag is reached.

[mudvnine]

Baloney. That statement is anatomically, physiologically, and kinesiologically incorrect as well as simply not true just by observing any MLB hitter swing the bat.

They all load their hands. That stretches the muscles that are around the front shoulder. They load back to get a stretch-reflex action. The muscles stretch and then reflexively contract when the shoulder moves as the hands finish their load. When the shoulder turns the hands move. It's an ABSOLUTE FACT.

IMO, you are confusing opening the shoulder before the hands load, and/or before the hips turn.

His hands and shoulder move in exact synch. The hands don't start to move from arm action until bat lag is reached.

JB, great video not only showing the shoulders "bringing" the hands, but also keeping the top hand palm facing the ball/pitcher as is enters the hitting zone.

We discussed this in another post, where Dr. Yeager talks of preventing the top-hand palm from lying over backwards (pointing to the sky) to eliminate bat drag.

Where you first stop the video and write "Hands still back", you'll notice that the top hand is still facing forward. Notice how the top hand palm stays facing forward (and slightly above the bottom hand) well out in front of the plate (where you stop the video the second time). At this point the hands are far enough through the swing and ahead of the elbow that bat drag is eliminated or impossible.

I wish we could find this same topside view of a hitter with bat drag and compare the two top hands through the swing.

[Mark H]

JB, great video not only showing the shoulders "bringing" the hands, but also keeping the top hand palm facing the ball/pitcher as is enters the hitting zone.

Looking at the clip and mulling over interpreting the above statement, I'm thinking when you talk about keeping the top hand palm facing the zone, this is the same as maintaining the hinge angle? Fits with focusing on palm position to avoid bat drag. Same sort of focus. Not criticizing but rather seeking the meaning in your phrase.

[Mark H]

Baloney. That statement is anatomically, physiologically, and kinesiologically incorrect as well as simply not true just by observing any MLB hitter swing the bat.

Party pooper.

[jbooth]

Looking at the clip and mulling over interpreting the above statement, I'm thinking when you talk about keeping the top hand palm facing the zone, this is the same as maintaining the hinge angle? Fits with focusing on palm position to avoid bat drag. Same sort of focus. Not criticizing but rather seeking the meaning in your phrase.

No, I think he means that the palm does not turn skyward early.

Look at the part below and note that the back elbow has dropped, the hands and back shoulder have moved from the launch point, he has begun to attack the ball, yet his palm is still facing forward, which keeps the shaft of the bat close to the shoulder and keeps the bathead up, and aids in getting the great bat lag that he gets.

[mudvnine]

Originally Posted by Mark H
Looking at the clip and mulling over interpreting the above statement, I'm thinking when you talk about keeping the top hand palm facing the zone, this is the same as maintaining the hinge angle? Fits with focusing on palm position to avoid bat drag. Same sort of focus. Not criticizing but rather seeking the meaning in your phrase.

No, I think he means that the palm does not turn skyward early.

Look at the part below and note that the back elbow has dropped, the hands and back shoulder have moved from the launch point, he has begun to attack the ball, yet his palm is still facing forward, which keeps the shaft of the bat close to the shoulder and keeps the bathead up, and aids in getting the great bat lag that he gets.

Yeah, what JB said!!!

Mark, I'm not too familiar with "hinge angle" only as I can interpret it from previous discusssions of it on the forum. I might have confused things earlier; when I reread my post, I saw that I stated "keeping the top hand palm facing the ball/pitcher as it enters the hitting zone" which might make one think that the top palm is facing the ball as the ball is entering the hitting zone, which would be far too late in the swing. I meant to clearly state that the palm was facing forward as the hands were entering the hitting zone, while the ball was still on its way in.

Not sure if that makes it any clearer, so just go with what Jim said, he hit it on the head again. . . I'm going to have to start paying him to be my interpreter, he's helped my out on more then one occasion.

[StraightGrain11]

Fact Two: If you talk to pretty much anyone at the major league level, they will emphasize that the hands have to lead the swing. They emphasize that the hips and hands, not the hips and shoulders, drive the swing.

THIS

is the reason for that. The hips and hands are "going TOGETHER"; and the hands are obviously moving FASTER than the torso is turning, which means a muscle in the back is [contracting and] "pulling" the lead arm and a muscle in the chest is [contracting and] "pulling the rear arm [in/thru]. And if this is true, then the hands ARE moving "independent" of the shoulders.

[Swing Coach]

IN this clip, the hands are not "obviously" moving faster than the torso in the "hidden" beginning of the swing. They are moving along even with his shoulders.

[Mark H]

Yeah, what JB said!!!

Mark, I'm not too familiar with "hinge angle" only as I can interpret it from previous discusssions of it on the forum. I might have confused things earlier; when I reread my post, I saw that I stated "keeping the top hand palm facing the ball/pitcher as it enters the hitting zone" which might make one think that the top palm is facing the ball as the ball is entering the hitting zone, which would be far too late in the swing. I meant to clearly state that the palm was facing forward as the hands were entering the hitting zone, while the ball was still on its way in.

Not sure if that makes it any clearer, so just go with what Jim said, he hit it on the head again. . . I'm going to have to start paying him to be my interpreter, he's helped my out on more then one occasion.

Looking at the clip for reference, hinge angle is the angle between the bat and the bottom hand forearm. I'm aware of your test for bat drag as the palm facing up. Since one could have the palm not facing up without it facing the pitcher I thought you were focusing on something else.

[Chris O'Leary]

The hips and hands are "going TOGETHER"; and the hands are obviously moving FASTER than the torso is turning, which means a muscle in the back is [contracting and] "pulling" the lead arm and a muscle in the chest is [contracting and] "pulling the rear arm [in/thru]. And if this is true, then the hands ARE moving "independent" of the shoulders.

I don't see this.

I see the hands turning with, and staying connected to, the back shoulder.

[StraightGrain11]

I don't see this.

I see the hands turning with, and staying connected to, the back shoulder.

What is CAUSING the hands to stay "connected to the back shoulder"? And how can they be connected to ONLY the back shoulder - do the "shoulders" not move together?

[FiveFrameSwing]

His hands and shoulder move in exact synch. The hands don't start to move from arm action until bat lag is reached.

Exactly!

I think we've discussed this before, but the way Chris Yeager teaches this is to get the lower body momentum mechanics correct and then to synchronize the top hand to the lower body.

The kids I work with go through their "Yeager" drills prior to hitting. Their second drill is a "synchronization" drill with the focus on the lower body being synchronized to the top hand.

[Mark H]

... lower body being synchronized to the top hand.

Could you elaborate on this?

[StraightGrain11]

IN this clip, the hands are not "obviously" moving faster than the torso in the "hidden" beginning of the swing. They are moving along even with his shoulders.

Are they? When the hands "start", where are they - near/in front of the rear shoulder (BEHIND the centerline of the body). When they make contact with the ball, where are they - ON the center line of the body. In order for this to occur, the hands must "overtake" the shoulders at somepoint; and since both are still moving up to and thru contact, it must occur with the "hands moving faster than the torso is turning".

[Mark H]

As each part of the kinetic chain delivers it's momentum to the smaller more distal parts of the kinetic chain, rotational velocity increases.

[BoardMember]

... lower body being synchronized to the top hand.

Could you elaborate on this?

Five, I've often been curious about the meaning of this also. It can't be a que.

It brings a picture of the hands and hips turning infront of the shoulders ALA a push forward with the hands since the shoulders haven't begun turning with the hips in a good separated swing..........

What exactly is meant by this, and what sequence would one follow to achieve this?

[jbooth]

What is CAUSING the hands to stay "connected to the back shoulder"? And how can they be connected to ONLY the back shoulder - do the "shoulders" not move together?

The front shoulder is making the bottom hand move at the start of shoulder rotation. The arm can then try to independently pull on the bat to accelerate it faster than the shoulders. It's similar to what you stated in another post; you aren't AWARE of the shoulder moving the hands, because it just happens and your focus is on the hands.

"Keep the hands back" means to not take them to the ball until the hips and shoulders have begun to move. After that, you can think about pulling, throwing, snapping, whatever; but, the body starts the hands/handle moving at the ball.

[justthefacts]

Whenever someone bring up a concept that originated with discussions at SETPRO such as bat drag, (and if you can point out someone who was discussing/describing bat drag before SETPRO then please do so that I am corrected) I have to jump in especially one I really don't see anything close to what I believe to be cause-and-effect.

Almost all young players exhibit bat drag and bat drag is in my opinion the most serious obstacle in the way of developing a high-level swing.

I took thousands of swings trying to figure out what caused it and more importantly how to correct it. And believe me it was a frustrating adventure. Every time I thought I had an answer the videotape said something else. Every time I tried what I thought was a logical fix it off and got worse.

Also I can really empathize with the players and parents of players who have bat drag and are trying to fix as it can be a bugger of a problem to correct because when I started SETPRO and began to film myself thinking swings I had horrendous bat drag.

One of the significant advantages I have in figuring this swing stuff out may sound like a disadvantage to some but to me it's a real advantage; the advantage being that I didn't take many swings when I was younger. I didn't play Little League and I played a couple years of high school baseball primarily as a pitcher who was "prone" to wildness (I would strike out the side on nine pitches in the first inning and then walk the entire opposing team in the second inning). So I didn't get many at bats. Which when I started SETPRO put me at the swing level proficiency a 12-year-old.

Why is this an advantage? Because all the problems of 12 year olds have with their swing I also had, not the least of which was severe bat drag. In other words I could identify with what a 12-year-old with bat drag was going through.

With respect to bat drag and for me, the more that I tried to throw my hands or create more active hands the worst my bat drag got.

It wasn't until I really understood what the problem with bat drag was that I was able to correct it.

At least that's what I found in my investigations.

Again with the danger of sounding like a know it all (so what else is new ) what you're posting/ describing here is almost totally unrelated to what I found causes bat drag and how to fix it.

But that's fun of it all, isn't it? Trying to figure out what causes a problem and then more importantly determining how to fix it.....a

[Skipper_George]

JUSTTHEFACTS,

How did you fix your bat drag problem?
I have an 11 year old and we have been working on this issue for awhile now. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.

SG

[justthefacts]

... whose agenda is to help his son and is willing to venture into the lion's den.....

Skipper_George

How did you fix your bat drag problem?
I have an 11 year old and we have been working on this issue for awhile now. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Almost without exception bat drag is the result of the player dropping the barrel of the bat. Dropping of the barrel is an attempt on the part of the player to position the bat without using their posture. Dropping of the barrel the bat is also consequence of them learning how to swing using their hands to position the bat or should I say move the bat through space and time.

So the first step in correcting bat drag is to correct posture problems i.e. the player has to learn how to use postural adjustment.

Once postural adjustment is understood that it simply a matter of staying connected at the initiation of the swingby the upper body i.e. maintaining the box.

In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.

Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.

And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.

Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.

My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.

But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body.

So when I say swing and maintain the box I'm talking about a specific point in the swing sequence where the lower body and upper body are at a certain point in the swing process.

Don't mean to drag you down with details such as this but after all the craziness that I see in this forum in terms of how people interpret things when you talk about rotating in maintaining the box no two people have the same vision so one has to be very careful how one explains it.

[Skipper_George]

Thanks for the reponse.
I will head to the lions den again this weekend and work on his posture some more.

Thanks again