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Thread: Top 10 Players by Decade-1990s

  1. #1
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    Top 10 Players by Decade-1990s

    This is a new project I thought of that I think would be fun, and it's simple. It may also provide a reference to the ongoing top level talent debates we have going here. The rules are simple-make up a top 10 list of the best players by decade. Your first man will receive 12 points, your 2nd man 9, your 3rd man 8, and so on.

    I will total up the points in about a week, and the consensus top 10 list for that decade will be listed.

    The criteria is based only on the decade in question. Example-For this poll, judge just what the player did in the years 1990-1999, and the same will be true for all the polls (like the 1980s poll will only be about years 1980-1989, 1970s 1970-1979, and so on).

    Also, this poll is only for position players. No pitchers.

    We'll start with the 1990s, and move our way back through history. So, please post your top 10 players of the 1990s. I hope this project will be enjoyable and we have many people participate.

    Have fun!
    Last edited by 538280; 04-26-2006 at 06:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'll start the voting:

    1.Barry Bonds
    2.Frank Thomas
    3.Jeff Bagwell
    4.Mike Piazza
    5.Ken Griffey Jr.
    6.Craig Biggio
    7.Roberto Alomar
    8.Barry Larkin
    9.Mark McGwire
    10.Albert Belle
    Last edited by 538280; 04-27-2006 at 05:29 AM.

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    --I'm not a huge fan of decade teams, since they favor players who just happen to have their career centered on an arbitrary 10 year window. That said;
    1) Barry Bonds - no contest
    2) Mike Piazza
    3) Ken Griffey
    4) Frank Thomas
    5) Jeff Bagwell
    6) Roberto Alomar
    7) Craig Biggio
    8) Albert Belle
    9) Barry Larkin
    10) Sammy Sosa

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    1. Barry Bonds
    2. Ken Griffey Jr
    3. Frank Thomas
    4. Jeff Bagwell
    5. Mark McGwire
    6. Sammy Sosa
    7. Juan Gonzalez
    8. Rafael Palmeiro
    9. Fred McGriff
    10. Mike Piazza

  5. #5
    My rankings (+ average z-score based on my "five tool" formula)

    1 Bonds (1.15)
    2 F Thomas (.6495)
    3 Griffey Jr. (.6413)
    4 McGwire (.5336)
    5 Piazza (.451)
    6 Bagwell (.439)
    7 B Larkin (.221)
    8 R Alomar (.1855)
    9 A Rodriguez (.124)
    10 I Rodriguez (.0682)

    Also close: J Gonzalez, A Belle, M Williams

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    Barry Bonds
    Frank Thomas
    Mike Piazza
    Ken Griffey Jr
    Albert Belle
    Jeff Bagwell
    Craig Biggio
    Roberto Alomar
    Rafael Palmerio
    Mark McGwire

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    To avoid the usual problem of too many 1B and corner outfielders, I'll try to make up a team, including a DH and a fourth outfielder to make it 10.

    C - Piazza
    1B - Bagwell
    2B - Alomar
    SS - ARod (even not using him for half the decade, who was better? Omar Vizquel for ten years?)
    3B - Chipper Jones (same story...)
    LF - Bonds
    CF -Juan Gone (if defense means nothing. Otherwise, Ellis Burks?)
    RF- Paul O'Neill
    DH - Frank Thomas
    Extra outfielder - both my centerfielders
    Last edited by Gee Walker; 04-26-2006 at 08:29 PM.

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    1. Barry Bonds
    2. Ken Griffey Jr.
    3. Ivan Rodriguez
    4. Roberto Alomar
    5. Frank Thomas
    6. Jeff Bagwell
    7. Mike Piazza
    8. Albert Belle
    9. Craig Biggio
    10.Juan Gonzalez
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  9. #9
    1.) Bonds
    2.) Bagwell
    3.) Thomas
    4.) Griffey
    5.) Biggio
    6.) Mcgwire
    7.) Alomar
    8.) Palmerio
    9.) Larkin
    10.) Gywnn

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 538280
    I'll start the voting:

    1.Barry Bonds
    2.Frank Thomas
    3.Jeff Bagwell
    4.Craig Biggio
    5.Ken Griffey Jr.
    6.Roberto Alomar
    7.Barry Larkin
    8.Mark McGwire
    9.Rafael Palmerio
    10.Albert Belle
    538380:
    I respect your opinions and you often make very insightful posts. But Biggio over Griffey is absolutele atrocious. How can you possibly justify that pick? You have to have some sort of bias against him, because that pick is just uncalled for.

    My list:

    1) Barry Bonds
    2) Ken Griffey
    3) Frank Thomas
    4) Mark McGwire
    5) Mike Piazza
    6) Jeff Bagwell
    7) Roberto Alomar
    8) Albert Belle
    9) I-Rod
    10) Barry Larkin

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    I am suprised at how many people are picking McGwire concidering he was awful in 1991, missed over a month in 1992, barely played in 1993 or 1994, missed two months in 1995, one more in 1996 and his only healthy seasons, 97-99 are of course surrounded by the steroid cloud. I though to be on of the best players of a decade, it might help to acctualy play a lot.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 04-26-2006 at 08:58 PM.
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    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  12. #12
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    I for one did not make it a requirement that the player play all ten full seasons during the decade. Regardless of how you slice it, McGwire hit 405 homers during the decade, and he was just in general an offensive monster.

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    Are we limited to choosing position players, or can pitchers be considered?

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    1.Barry Bonds
    2.Frank Thomas
    3.Ken Griffey Jr.
    4.Mike Piazza
    5.Jeff Bagwell
    6.Edgar Martinez
    7.Roberto Alomar
    8.Ivan Rodriguez
    9.Craig Biggio
    10.Chipper JOnes
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  15. #15
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    1990s:

    1: Barry Bonds
    2: Frank Thomas
    3: Ken Griffey Jr.
    4: Mike Piazza
    5: Edgar Martinez
    6: Jeff Bagwell
    7: Mark McGwire
    8: Robby Alomar
    9; Craig Biggio
    10: Rafael Palmeiro

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    Wow Matt....our lists are so close I copied yours to make mine!

    1: Barry Bonds
    2: Frank Thomas
    3: Ken Griffey Jr.
    4: Mike Piazza
    5: Jeff Bagwell
    6: Mark McGwire
    7: Edgar Martinez
    8: Barry Larkin
    9: Craig Biggio
    10: Roberto Alomar
    HM: ARod....a monster 4 seasons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pghfan987
    538380:
    I respect your opinions and you often make very insightful posts. But Biggio over Griffey is absolutele atrocious. How can you possibly justify that pick? You have to have some sort of bias against him, because that pick is just uncalled for.
    I don't really like Griffey much, I think he is horribly overrated (search for some of my posts on him). I was making this list based on the lists of players by Win Shares, and that actually shows Griffey behind Biggio. I guess I should give in to traditional knowledge and put Griffey ahead though. I've always thought WS does overrate Biggio.

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    1. Barry Bonds
    2. Frank Thomas
    3. Mark McGwire
    4. Jeff Bagwell
    5. Ken Griffey Jr
    6. Edgar Martinez
    7. Rafael Palmeiro
    8. Albert Belle
    9. Craig Biggio
    10. Mike Piazza
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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    When i have to vote for the best players on a certain period, i cannot vote for players that have played for half of it, even if your name is Alex Rodriguez. Therefore, my top 10 players for the 1990 decade have to play for the whole decade. They are, in order:

    1. Barry Bonds. (I'm not voting because all this pre-roids Bonds loving lately. I picked him back in 1999, and i did it again)

    2. Ken Griffey Jr. (This was everyone's favorite)

    3. Frank Thomas. (He'd be number one, if he had 1998 and 1999 healthy)

    4. Tony Gwynn. (The best hitter of my lifetime)

    5. Mark Grace. (How can you not mention this guy?)

    6. Roberto Alomar. (Best span decade for the second basemen)

    7. Rafael Palmeiro. (The most consistent player of the decade, then we found out he cheated)

    8. Mark Mcgwire. (He was injured from 1993-1995, yet still made the cut)

    9. Craig Biggio. (The switch to 2b helped his career)

    10. Sammy Sosa. (If Big Mac is in, why isn't he?)
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  20. #20
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    This brings back memories of my all-decade teams. Too bad that project didn't pan out.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "My dreams never took me to Cooperstown. I didn't play the game to get here, I played the game because I loved it." -Paul Molitor

    "2,000 years from now when they look back at American culture, they'll mention three things: the constitution, Jazz music, and baseball." - George Earley

    Formerly Dudecar00

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 538280
    I don't really like Griffey much, I think he is horribly overrated (search for some of my posts on him). I was making this list based on the lists of players by Win Shares, and that actually shows Griffey behind Biggio. I guess I should give in to traditional knowledge and put Griffey ahead though. I've always thought WS does overrate Biggio.
    I think that because so many people here think that Griffey is overrated, they are vastly underrating him. If there is any list that Griffey should be near the top of, it is a list of top players from the 90s, because his prime covers exactly that era.

    Think about why people think he is overrated. Because defensive win shares show us that his defense was not as good as we think it is? I actually heard someone here describe his defense as merely "good". Maybe he is good compared to Tris Speaker, but compared to his peers, Griffey was a defensive force. Let's look at a Biggio/ Griffey comparison in the 90s:

    BA- Griffey: .302 Biggio: .297
    OBP- Griffey: .383 Biggio: .372
    SLG- Griffey: .570 Biggio: .430
    OPS- Griffey: 148 Biggio: 121
    HRs- Griffey: 382 Biggio: 136

    We do agree that Griffey was the better hitter, right?? I don't see any argument otherwise.

    Fielding wise, in spite of the fact that you think that Griffey was overrated in the field, he was still better than Biggio. He played a more important position and won 6 more gold gloves. Griffey was the best outfielder in the Major Leagues for most of the 90s, while Biggio was never better than Alomar in the field, IMO (more from watching them play than stats).

    So if Griffey is better at hitting and more valuable in the field, where does Biggio make up the ground?? Baserunning? Biggio was better, but come on- give him Rickey Henderson skills and I still go with Griffey.

    Obviously all of us tend to push our own opinions. But clearly, you were really stretching to find some sort of stats that might justify Biggio over Griffey.

    I really think that Griffey is becoming underrated on this forum. There has been some sort of backlash against him because 1) the average fan overrates him and 2) we perceive him as lazy. But the fact is, he is the second most valuable defensive player in Major League baseball history to hit 500 home runs! (At worst, I would say, fourth). Just because you think that the average fan overrates Griffey, that doesn't mean you should vastly underrate Griffey to make up the difference. He was a great player. Period. I am sorry that he did not "live up to his potential", but the guy is none-the-less and all-time great.

    Mark

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    That "good" comment came from me. And I'm a big time Griffey supporter... my point is that while he made some absolutely unbelievable catches, his range wasn't quite up to par with some others (yes, even some other that played with him, like Lenny Dykstra, Robin Yount???, and Lance Johnson. Of every player to play at least 1000 games in the OF in the 90's, he ranks only fourth in Range Factor, behind Johnson, Devon White and Kenny Lofton. All of whom could go get it, but none of whom would class as elite fielders either.

    Don't get me wrong... Griff has a place on the top 3 in this list, and could be arguably #2 if you do include his glovework. If you're reading the all time legends threads....to use that context, I'd give his defense a B+. Good is probably not good enough, but if great follows good, I'll leave it at good.

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    Follow up:
    Matt, how do the 90's OFers stack up in PCA....defense only?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pghfan987
    I think that because so many people here think that Griffey is overrated, they are vastly underrating him. If there is any list that Griffey should be near the top of, it is a list of top players from the 90s, because his prime covers exactly that era.

    Think about why people think he is overrated. Because defensive win shares show us that his defense was not as good as we think it is? I actually heard someone here describe his defense as merely "good". Maybe he is good compared to Tris Speaker, but compared to his peers, Griffey was a defensive force.
    Defensive force? No way. Grifey was a flashy outfielder, the kind that made Sportscenter every night and made the fans happy, but he wasn't a great outfielder, and not a defensive force. He was a GG caliber player in his best years, but that doesn't make him a great outfielder. The 10 GGs he won were won with his bat and the "great play" method of evaluating fielders, which leads to horrible conclusions. BP shows him being right around average. I personally like the WS evaluation more, which has him being about a B CFer, A- among all OFers.

    Griffey has been, and my own eyes can attest to this, a horrible CFer who doesn't even deserve to be out there after all these injuries. He doesn't run hard anymore, and looks like he's limping sometimes. He can't even make nearly as many unbelieveable catches anymore. BP showed him to be below replacement level last year, and that just may be right. He was a good CFer in his prime, but has gotten horrible in his decline and IMO would have some trouble rating as one of the top 50 defensive CF of all time. That doesn't mean he wasn't very good though.

    Let's look at a Biggio/ Griffey comparison in the 90s:

    BA- Griffey: .302 Biggio: .297
    OBP- Griffey: .383 Biggio: .372
    SLG- Griffey: .570 Biggio: .430
    OPS- Griffey: 148 Biggio: 121
    HRs- Griffey: 382 Biggio: 136

    We do agree that Griffey was the better hitter, right?? I don't see any argument otherwise.
    I do agree Griffey was the better hitter, but it's a lot closer than the raw numbers would indicate because of positional adjustments and park effects. Biggio also, like Bill James points out, has better little stats than any other player in history. He gets hit by a ton of pitches, he almost never grounds into a double play, he stole a ton of bases with hardly ever getting caught, and he also sacrificed himself for the team with sac hits. Biggio is the player in history who goes up the most with the advanced RC formula versus the basic one. The basic one just doesn't totally capture what makes Craig Biggio a great player, while the advanced one does.

    You really should read Bill James' essay comparing Biggio and Griffey. It shows how those litte stats left out of OPS+ really can conspire to make a player much more valuable than he at first appears.

    Fielding wise, in spite of the fact that you think that Griffey was overrated in the field, he was still better than Biggio. He played a more important position and won 6 more gold gloves. Griffey was the best outfielder in the Major Leagues for most of the 90s, while Biggio was never better than Alomar in the field, IMO (more from watching them play than stats).
    I disagree with you here. Biggio was the more valuable defender. Since when was CF a more important defensive position than 2B? Maybe pre 1935 but in the modern era no way. 2B nowadays is a defense first position where fielding comes first. Biggio was a B 2Bman in his prime, probably like a C one as he aged. Griffey was, IMO, an A- in his prime and a D as he aged, playing as less important position. Biggio was the more valuable fielder.

    I'm going to go with Griffey here, almost solely on traditional opinions, but I think Win Shares may be catching on to something with Biggio being better than he looks and Griffey being worse. I've been against Griffey for a long time though (Jimmy Wynn), and maybe I'm just biased, but I think Griffey would have to rate in the top 25 of most overrated players. We had one member recently tout him as better than Tris Speaker.

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    --Chris, I think the problem here is you are too young to remember young Ken Griffey and have only seen the crippled up version currently with the Reds. Griffey was a great outfielder with Seattle. Not Speaker/Mays great, but as good as anybody in the 90s (which is all that matters for this poll).
    --Injuries have turned him into a shadow of his former self and he is a pretty lousy CFer now. In fact, Griffey is probably the worst defensive CF in baseball at this point, but that shouldn't detract from what he once was.

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