Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 48

Thread: Front shoulder pull

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    927
    Blog Entries
    2

    Front shoulder pull

    Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach? In other words, as I look at many powerful MLB swings, I notice how the front shoulder really pulls into and after contact...which helps hook the hands and create more bat head speed. Does this front shoulder pull happen automatically, or is it a teach into contact? I am leaning toward that it is a teach, especially when you look below at Ellsbury's shoulder pull on this HR swing below. Thoughts?
    SC
    PRO PHOTO SAMPLES 08-11-2011 0003.jpgJacoby Ellsbury 08-25-2011 0003.jpg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    6,322
    Good question. I could go either way... today.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  3. #3
    no. the shoulders and arms are along for the ride. the hips and core powers the swing. I would not teach shoulder rotation at all. if you rotate the hips properly the shoulders will follow.

    teaching the shoulders to rotate purposefully will usually lead to pulling the head off the ball and an upper body dominant swing. that's why any MLB hitting coach says "keep the fron shoulder in (or closed)" although that doesn't reflect reality of course.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    982
    Swing coach,

    Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach?
    This mechanical action is a main component of force coupling of the hands at contact to create equal and opposite pressure on the bat handle. The opposite force is voluntary and active pronation of the back side forearm. This action causes conservation of previous inertia built up by the torso rotation and is a teach. The instructors that do not teach force coupling with the hands will not produce it in their students.
    “the first left turn circuit”

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    6,322
    keep the front shoulder in
    I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

    Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,985
    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    no. the shoulders and arms are along for the ride. the hips and core powers the swing. I would not teach shoulder rotation at all. if you rotate the hips properly the shoulders will follow.
    The arms are not along for the ride. The hips have to clear for the top to go to work. Ted Williams' suggested that he wanted the hips to be operating at about 85% and the arms/hands/wrists to be going at 100%. Regardless of percentages, there is work to be done in the swing by other body parts than the hips.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,985
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

    Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.
    The hips lead. They open before the shoulders. The separation of the bottom half from the top half and the torque generated by that separation is what "keeping the front shoulder in" is all about. Of course that cue has been hijacked by poor instructors to mean other things.

    edit: went hunting in the clips/pics thread. Here are a few to look at.



    Look at the torque on francouer plant...



    Now just imagine the separation at plant. The front shoulder is in.

    Last edited by The Uncoach; 09-07-2011 at 09:47 AM. Reason: added images

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    9,192
    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach? In other words, as I look at many powerful MLB swings, I notice how the front shoulder really pulls into and after contact...which helps hook the hands and create more bat head speed. Does this front shoulder pull happen automatically, or is it a teach into contact? I am leaning toward that it is a teach, especially when you look below at Ellsbury's shoulder pull on this HR swing below. Thoughts?
    Interesting topic and something that I've been thinking about myself as I think about problems like bat drag and arm bar.

    I believe that, while the front shoulder has a role to play, I believe that taking it too far can create problems like arm bar. One way to interpret the clip below is that the hitter is trying to pull too much and/or too soon with their front shoulder.



    This swing could be interpreted as...

    1. Push the hands back to try to create separation.
    2. Pull like crazy with the front shoulder.

    I'm toying with characterizing the swing above as a dominant front arm and/or shoulder (with the arm bar being effect more than cause) more than bat drag.

    In truth, you have to balance things out.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-07-2011 at 10:08 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    982
    Songtitle,

    This all depends on the approach and actual performance by pitch location.
    “I wish I knew what that meant.”
    To me it has always meant shoulder deceleration into contact that I physically teach and it produces great results in that the hands can actually be used then to force couple the bat

    “I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them”
    Why are you telling them if you don’t know what it means?

    “they will give a thousand different answers”
    Teachers should teach what they should do not what they think they are doing although asking them what terms mean can often produce surprising responses and lead to clarification on even the seemingly simplest terms.

    ”Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all”
    Watch great power hitters, their shoulders create great speed in the beginning and decelerate into contact then continue on their way.
    “the first left turn circuit”

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    6,322
    Dirt,
    Why are you telling them if you don’t know what it means?
    heh, I try to get kids to think about cues and what they mean. Some, like this one, don't have any practical meaning for them.

    I agree, the front hip and front shoulder can't fire together. I focus on the front hip and the back shoulder firing together - this is what makes a good swing so tricky for most.

    Chris,
    Notice how his back shoulder is getting ahead of his back hip. Remember we talked about keeping the back hip/shoulder synced, yet having the front hip go ahead of the front shoulder.
    Last edited by songtitle; 09-07-2011 at 11:08 AM.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    9,192
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Chris,
    Notice how his back shoulder is getting ahead of his back hip. Remember we talked about keeping the back hip/shoulder synced, yet having the front hip go ahead of the front shoulder.
    I see that as well.

    His sequence is definitely upside-down, coming top-down rather than middle-out from the hips.

    What's confusing is that the hips do turn, but if you look carefully you will see that they are being pulled around by the shoulders rather than vice versa.

    Thanks to the action of the serape muscles, his front shoulder is pulling his back hip around rather than his front hip pulling his back shoulder around.

    However, I think it's still (mostly) accurate to describe this as a shoulder-driven swing.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-07-2011 at 11:17 AM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    4,967
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

    Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.
    It means to not pull the front shoulder out, but rather, hold it in until it gets forced open due to hip rotation. As usual with many queues, it doesn't mean literally, to "keep" it in, and never let it go. The hips turn the shoulders and the shoulders pull the hands

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,475
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    I focus on the front hip and the back shoulder firing together - this is what makes a good swing so tricky for most.
    What "fires" the back shoulder . . . or how does it "fire"?

    I guess to be clearer in my question . . . what pulls it or pushes it to make it "fire"?
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,475
    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    It means to not pull the front shoulder out, but rather, hold it in until it gets forced open due to hip rotation. As usual with many queues, it doesn't mean literally, to "keep" it in, and never let it go. The hips turn the shoulders and the shoulders pull the hands
    JB, not to raise the hairs on the back of your neck here or anything, but doesn't the bold sort of explain the meaning of the "shoulder bypass" to you, or at least help you understand what is meant my it, even if you don't necessarily like those words for it?

    IOWs, don't consciously do anything with the shoulders in the swing . . . just "bypass" them and use the "hips and hands" . . . in simplified terms that is.

    No?
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach?
    No way. It would definitely screw up your hitters big time.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    927
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    no. the shoulders and arms are along for the ride. the hips and core powers the swing. I would not teach shoulder rotation at all. if you rotate the hips properly the shoulders will follow.
    I too was fooled by the dark side and believed that the hips power the entire swing....but when the force was shown to me...working with hundreds of players, talking to a couple MLB players and really studying what people smarter than me were saying...i was changed. The hips are not connected to the bat, so they cant supply all That much power to the bat. They are connected to the shoulders ( which are connected to the arms and then the bat.)... and once the shoulders start turning, i believe teaching a strong front shoulder pull through contact applies direct torque in the arms and forearms and hooks the hands inward...which creates a powerful hinge between the hands, thus accelerating the bat head through the ball. Shoulder decceleration causes the hands and arms to extend towards the ball, which prevents a hand hinge and ends the rotational torque sequence...better known as "disconnection" through contact. You can teach your soldiers to deccelerate the shoulders into conact and i will teach mine to do just what Chipper and Ellsbury and Kinsler and many others do with their shoulders when they hit their long home runs.

    SC
    Last edited by Swing Coach; 09-07-2011 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,475
    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    ... and once the shoulders start turning, i believe teaching a strong front shoulder pull through contact
    OK SC, similar question to you as to ST . . .

    What is it exactly, that "pulls" the "front shoulder through contact" and how are you teaching kids to get whatever that is to pull?
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    6,322
    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    What "fires" the back shoulder . . . or how does it "fire"?

    I guess to be clearer in my question . . . what pulls it or pushes it to make it "fire"?
    The same thing that "fires" the front hip. See the center figure below.


    It's simple leverage. The front hip and rear shoulder are working in unison to rotate quickly around an axis.
    Last edited by songtitle; 09-07-2011 at 08:04 PM.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,173
    It seems focusing on the front shoulder pull would cause hitters to pull off the outside pitch. And as Dirtberry mentioned, the shoulders need to decelerate into contact.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    9,192
    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    And as Dirtberry mentioned, the shoulders need to decelerate into contact.
    That's crazy talk.

    I remember when people once mocked this one guy for saying the same thing a few years ago. ;-)

  21. #21
    Mankin is pretty big on shoulder rotation and pulling the front shoulder all the way through. I think you shouldn't force that too much though.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    I too was fooled by the dark side and believed that the hips power the entire swing....but when the force was shown to me...working with hundreds of players, talking to a couple MLB players and really studying what people smarter than me were saying...i was changed. The hips are not connected to the bat, so they cant supply all That much power to the bat. They are connected to the shoulders ( which are connected to the arms and then the bat.)... and once the shoulders start turning, i believe teaching a strong front shoulder pull through contact applies direct torque in the arms and forearms and hooks the hands inward...which creates a powerful hinge between the hands, thus accelerating the bat head through the ball. Shoulder decceleration causes the hands and arms to extend towards the ball, which prevents a hand hinge and ends the rotational torque sequence...better known as "disconnection" through contact. You can teach your soldiers to deccelerate the shoulders into conact and i will teach mine to do just what Chipper and Ellsbury and Kinsler and many others do with their shoulders when they hit their long home runs.
    Geez, SC, you start an excellent thread and pose the most relevant of questions -- i.e., is this a teach? -- and everyone goes off-topic and starts nattering about hips.

    People, we are focusing on the nanosecond just after the hips have cleared and the bellybutton is pointing toward first base and there's 'time' for the batter to think of one cue to finish the swing. And, yes, I think that cue can be to continue to rotate the shoulders, so long as this rotation is done with the proper tilt so that the batter does not pull off the ball, as Dominik worries. First, as you point out, you'll get disconnection if the shoulders don't continue to rotate. (Obviously, if it's an outsidish pitch, the extent to which your shoulders can continue to rotate is limited.)

    Second -- while I hate to use the term 'torque' because it can me so many things to different folks -- SC is on the right track. What causes the bathead to 'whip' around the hands is the circular-type path of the hands. If that circle is a constantly-shrinking radius, that whip action is increased -- it's pure physics based on the law of conservation of angular momentum.

    Professor Adair sets this out a little more analytically:


    This shrinking radius is sometimes called the 'hook' or 'J-hook'.

    The problem is that Newton's Nasty Old First Law: "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." The heavy bat is trying to send the bat in a straight line, so keeping the circular hand path is tough enough -- reducing the radius of that path is even harder, and is difficult to do with just the strength in the forearms. However, if you pull the front shoulder back as you come around while holding the hands stationary relative to the position of the front shoulder, that achieves this hook. Bonds was perhaps the greatest example of this type of hook. I've personally always loved this home run swing of Caitlyn Benji to illustrate this and other important swing issues:


    Here's a modest example from Ursa Minor of two months ago - resulting in a shot to left center on a seemingly unhittable fastball on the inside corner at the knees.



    Note the tilt (to prevent pulling off) and the tightening path of the hands aided by the shoulder turn.

    Now, is this full shoulder rotation 'teachable'? Generally, yes. Sometimes it's more a matter of teaching it negatively - i.e., "Don't STOP your shoulder rotation" -- to avoid a common flaw in young hitters who stop their rotation and just punch at the ball by extending their hands toward the pitcher. Tell 'em to keep their hands in and their front elbow bent and let the ball run deep. The only way they can get the bathead through the zone without having the bat snap around (and hurt) their bottom wrist is to keep the shoulders moving. Bottom arm only swing drills also reinforce this shoulder rotation mechanic, whether you refer to the shoulders or not.

    So, Swing Coach, good topic and good point.
    Last edited by Ursa Major; 09-08-2011 at 12:46 AM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Interesting topic and something that I've been thinking about myself as I think about problems like bat drag and arm bar.

    I believe that, while the front shoulder has a role to play, I believe that taking it too far can create problems like arm bar. One way to interpret the clip below is that the hitter is trying to pull too much and/or too soon with their front shoulder.



    This swing could be interpreted as...

    1. Push the hands back to try to create separation.
    2. Pull like crazy with the front shoulder.

    I'm toying with characterizing the swing above as a dominant front arm and/or shoulder (with the arm bar being effect more than cause) more than bat drag.

    In truth, you have to balance things out.
    IMO, You could add some positives to this list if you taught him how to use his hands properly...

    What separation is he trying to create?
    What do you think of his lower half?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    I too was fooled by the dark side and believed that the hips power the entire swing....but when the force was shown to me...working with hundreds of players, talking to a couple MLB players and really studying what people smarter than me were saying...i was changed. The hips are not connected to the bat, so they cant supply all That much power to the bat. They are connected to the shoulders ( which are connected to the arms and then the bat.)... and once the shoulders start turning, i believe teaching a strong front shoulder pull through contact applies direct torque in the arms and forearms and hooks the hands inward...which creates a powerful hinge between the hands, thus accelerating the bat head through the ball. Shoulder decceleration causes the hands and arms to extend towards the ball, which prevents a hand hinge and ends the rotational torque sequence...better known as "disconnection" through contact. You can teach your soldiers to deccelerate the shoulders into conact and i will teach mine to do just what Chipper and Ellsbury and Kinsler and many others do with their shoulders when they hit their long home runs.

    SC
    Ted Williams' suggested that he wanted the hips to be operating at about 85% and the arms/hands/wrists to be going at 100%.

    Ted is pretty smart and I fail to see him mention the shoulders.... Why is that?

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Dirt,


    heh, I try to get kids to think about cues and what they mean. Some, like this one, don't have any practical meaning for them.

    I agree, the front hip and front shoulder can't fire together. I focus on the front hip and the back shoulder firing together - this is what makes a good swing so tricky for most.

    Chris,
    Notice how his back shoulder is getting ahead of his back hip. Remember we talked about keeping the back hip/shoulder synced, yet having the front hip go ahead of the front shoulder.
    Do the hips move independantly of each other? How bout the shoulders? One can move without subsequent movement of the opposite side?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •