1958 Best of Baseball Election [Archive]

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jalbright

10-10-2009, 08:43 AM

This is our twenty-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT October 23, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1957 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=93695)

jalbright

10-10-2009, 08:43 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

10-10-2009, 08:44 AM

The players who become eligible in 1958 are:

Clarkson , Bus
Cooper , Mort
Dandridge , Ray
Henrich , Tommy
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Mize , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
York , Rudy

On the contributor side, we are adding Billy Southworth

jalbright

10-10-2009, 08:47 AM

The 1957 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player……….. votes pts
Herman, Billy 9 72
Foster, Willie 11 69
Keeler , Willie 12 69
Flick , Elmer 8 49
Traynor , Pie 7 45
Start , Joe 4 44
Ruffing , Red 5 40
Hack, Stan 5 36
Mackey, Biz 6 36
McPhee , Bid 5 36
Medwick, Joe 6 33
Stovey , Harry 5 33
Coveleski , S 7 32
Groh , Heinie 5 32
Carey , Max 2 23
Beckwith, John 5 22
Bennett , C 4 21
Terry , Bill 4 21
Gore , George 3 19
Thompson , S 2 18
Ferrell, Wes 3 17
Grant , Frank 3 17
Sutton , Ezra 5 16
Klein, Chuck 2 15
Caruthers , B 1 11
Joss , Addie 1 11
Maranville , R 2 10
Smith, Hilton 1 9
Berger , Wally 1 8
Duffy , Hugh 2 8
Faber , Red 1 8
Hill , Pete……. 1 8
Galvin , Pud 2 6
Glasscock , J 1 6
Averill, Earl 2 5
Dean, Dizzy 1 5
Jennings , H 1 5
McGinnity , J 2 4
Sewell , Joe 1 4
Roush , Edd 1 3
McCormick , J 1 2
Wallace , B 1 2

The 1957 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Contributor…….. votes pts
Stengel , Casey 8 26
Spink, JGT 6 20
MacPhail , La 7 16
Selee , Frank 7 15
Huggins , M 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 3 12
Pearce, Dickey 2 8
Wilkinson, JL 3 6
Bolden, Ed 1 5
Chance , Frank 1 5
Connolly , Tom 2 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Doubleday , A 1 4
Caylor , O. P. 1 3
Conlon , C 1 2
Griffith , C 2 2

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

10-10-2009, 08:58 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Cool Papa Bell
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Hank Greenberg
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Joe Jackson
Grant "Home Run"Johnson
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Ted Lyons
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Charlie Radbourn
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Rube Waddell
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Zack Wheat
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
Cum Posey
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Alfred Spink
Harry Wright

jalbright

10-10-2009, 09:01 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Clarkson , Bus
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Mort
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Dandridge , Ray
Danning , Harry
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galan , Augie
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hack , Stan
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Henrich , Tommy
Herman , Babe
Herman , Billy
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Mackey , Biz
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Frank
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Medwick , Joe
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Mize , Johnny
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moore , Terry
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
Mullane , Tony
Mungo , Van
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Buck
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Tobin , Jim
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Trouppe , Quincy
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
York , Rudy
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Griffith , Clark
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
O'Neill, Steve
Osborn , Frank
Pasquel, Jorge
Pompez , Alex
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Southworth, Billy
Spink, J. G. Taylor
Stallings , George
Stengel , Casey
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

10-10-2009, 09:06 AM

My ballot:

Players
1. Johnny Mize
2. Billy Herman
3. Red Ruffing
4. Willie Foster
5. Stan Hack
6. Harry Stovey
7. John Beckwith
8. Joe Medwick
9. Joe McGinnity
10. Willie Keeler
11. Biz Mackey
12. Elmer Flick

Contributors
1. Casey Stengel
2. J. G. Taylor Spink
3. Miller Huggins
4. Frank Selee
5. Larry MacPhail

Larry MacPhail, as promised, now joins my contributor ballot. Owing to my distaste for Joe Jackson due solely to his role in the Black Sox scandal, I have only two player slots this time. The first one, and first place on my ballot, goes to Johnny Mize. Elmer Flick is starting to gain a constituency, and he's close enough for me to join in at this point.

jjpm74

10-10-2009, 09:25 AM

Players:

1. Johnny Mize
2. Stan Hack
3. Joe Start
4. Red Ruffing
5. Charlie Bennett
6. Rabbit Maranville
7. Pie Traynor
8. Bid McPhee
9. Willie Keeler
10. Ezra Sutton
11. Pud Galvin
12. Earl Averill

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Dickey Pearce
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Casey Stengel
5. Frank Selee

Paul Wendt

10-10-2009, 09:28 AM

Johnny Mize slips into Grant Johnson's place at the top of the ballot.

Players
1 Johnny Mize
2 George Gore
3 Joe Start
4 Elmer Flick
5 Bid McPhee
6 Heinie Groh
7 Jack Glasscock
8 Billy Herman
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Charlie Bennett
11 Willie Keeler
12 Willie Foster

(I've adopted the JW conventional grey for first-time listings.)

Willies Keeler and Foster are both close to election and neither one is clearly premature, which I acknowledge by listing them at least once. --same as Rube Waddell last year and at least Wheat, Magee, Heilmann previously.

Stan Coveleski will be back next year.

Paul Wendt

10-10-2009, 09:36 AM

There was nothing about the Players for me to mull this year but, man, it's tough to be second in line here. Last in line is easier to manage, unfortunately, because Jim's 11th hour and 23rd hour warnings never do yield any ballots.

p.s. Welcome back, Astros.

p.p.s. Rube Waddell led the 1957 tally without a single number one or number two vote! Those thirty listings were split among eighteen candidates, iicc.

jalbright

10-10-2009, 09:56 AM

unfortunately, because Jim's 11th hour and 23rd hour warnings never do yield any ballots.

p.s. Welcome back, Astros.

Yeah, I know those warnings/reminders haven't yielded many (if any) ballots, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try (not that you're inferring I shouldn't). I'll also second the welcome back for AstrosFan. Rejoiners in good standing are always welcome, as are first-timers in good standing on the site.

jalbright

10-10-2009, 10:32 AM

p.p.s. Rube Waddell led the 1957 tally without a single number one or number two vote! Those thirty listings were split among eighteen candidates, iicc.

Also, this is the first time we've elected two players in the same election who still are not represented in Cooperstown to the present day: Johnson and Jackson.

Domenic

10-10-2009, 10:39 AM

01. Johnny Mize
02. Heinie Groh
03. Billy Herman
04. Wally Berger
05. Harry Stovey
06. Willie Foster
07. Joe Medwick
08. Stan Hack
09. Wes Ferrell
10. John Beckwith
11. Willie Keeler
12. Rabbit Maranville

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Casey Stengel
03. Miller Huggins
04. J.G. Taylor Spink
05. Larry MacPhail

Tiboreau

10-10-2009, 03:11 PM

1. Johnny Mize
2. Elmer Flick
3. Wilie Foster
4. Red Ruffing
5. Pete Hill
6. Wes Ferrell
7. Heinie Groh
8. Hughie Jennings
9. Willie Keeler
10. George Gore
11. Bobby Wallace
12. Stan Coveleski

AstrosFan

10-10-2009, 04:32 PM

1. Johnny Mize
2. Max Carey
3. Willie Foster
4. Elmer Flick
5. John Beckwith
6. Wee Willie Keeler
7. Harry Stovey
8. Joe Medwick
9. Stan Hack
10. Billy Herman
11. Bid McPhee
12. Earl Averill

1. J. G. Taylor Spink
2. Casey Stengel
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Frank Selee
5. Miller Huggins

dgarza

10-11-2009, 09:23 AM

Players

1. Johnny Mize
2. Joe Medwick
3. Sam Thompson
4. Willie Keeler
5. Chuck Klein
6. Harry Stovey
7. Bill Terry
8. Billy Herman
9. Hugh Duffy
10. Pud Galvin
11. Jim McCormick
12. Elmer Flick

Contributors

1. Casey Stengel
2. Abner Doubleday
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Charles Conlon
5. Miller Huggins

henrich

10-11-2009, 08:14 PM

Players:

01 Johnny Mize
02 Wee Willie Keeler
03 Pud Galvin
04 Harry Stovey
05 Chuck Klein
06 Bill Terry
07 Billy Herman
08 Heinie Groh
09 Stan Hack
10 Bid McPhee
11 Jim McCormick
12 Hugh Duffy

Contributors:

01 Casey Stengel
02 Abner Doubleday
03 Larry MacPhail
04 Miller Huggins
05 J.G. Taylor Spink

Dogdaze

10-11-2009, 09:54 PM

Players:

1. Johnny Mize
2. Willie Foster
3. Biz Mackey
4. Hilton Smith
5. Billy Herman
6. Elmer Flick
7. Pie Traynor
8. Frank Grant
9. John Beckwith
10. Willie Keeler
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Harry Stovey

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Casey Stengel
3. Larry MacPhail
4. J.L. Wilkinson
5. J. G. Taylor Spink

Captain Cold Nose

10-12-2009, 06:09 AM

1. Johnny Mize
2. Willie Keeler
3. Max Carey
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Pie Traynor
6. Sam Thompson
7. Biz Mackey
8. Billy Herman
9. Willie Foster
10. Edd Roush
11. Heinie Groh
12. Joe Medwick

Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Casey Stengel
3. Tom Connolly
4. Frank Selee
5. J.G.T. Spink

jalbright

10-12-2009, 08:17 AM

We now have a quorum on the player side, and are a mere two away on the contributor side.

J W

10-12-2009, 09:34 AM

Players

1. Johnny Mize
2. Biz Mackey
3. Frank Grant
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Stan Hack
6. Billy Herman
7. Pie Traynor
8. Joe Sewell
9. Joe Medwick
10. John Beckwith
11. Joe McGinnity
12. Willie Keeler

Contributors

1. Ed Bolden
2. Miller Huggins
3. Billy Southworth
4. Tom Connolly
5. Frank Selee

PVNICK

10-12-2009, 09:40 AM

J W

10-12-2009, 10:52 AM

For reference:

Games Above .500 - Eligible MLB Managers
* elected
** elected as player (min. 100 games > .500)
NEW

815 - John McGraw*
792 - Joe McCarthy*
422 - Frank Selee
421 - Fred Clarke**
349 - Cap Anson**
340 - Billy Southworth
340 - Harry Wright*
299 - Charlie Commiskey*
298 - Frank Chance
279 - Miller Huggins
239 - Jim Mutrie
219 - Steve O'Neill
189 - Hughie Jennings
181 - Joe Cronin**
173 - Bill McKechnie
162 - Pat Moran
162 - Bill Terry
149 - Ned Hanlon*
124 - Clark Griffith
63 - Casey Stengel
42 - Frank Bancroft
33 - Gabby Street
28 - Kid Gleason
3 - Tommy McCarthy
1 - Wilbert Robinson
(-4) - Mike Gonzalez
(-11) - Bill Carrigan
(-19) - O.P. Caylor
(-19) - George Stallings
(-217) - Connie Mack*

Paul Wendt

10-12-2009, 12:32 PM

The Boston Base Ball Club was the most successful in the 19th century but enjoyed only eleven .500 seasons in 46 years before the Southworth era.
- 1901-02 (Frank Selee's last and Al Buckenberger's first season),
- 1914-16 (three of George Stallings' eight seasons),
- 1921 (Fred Mitchell's first of three),
- five during the 1930s, four in eight seasons for Bill McKechnie plus Casey Stengel's first of five seasons.

The Boston team was never a contender during the McKechnie years, but was generally mediocre, which was an accomplishment while spending no money during a time Chicago, New York, Pittsburgh, and St Louis were all generally strong. They finished ahead of St Louis in '32-33 and ahead of Pittsburgh in '34, three .500 seasons.

Braves 1930-37 --McKechnie
rank 6-7-5-4-4-8-6-5

The Reds were the perennial doormats (7-8-8-8-8-6-5-8 without a .500 season). In 1938 the Braves finished 5 and .507 in Stengel's first season and McKechnie moved to the Reds. Doormats no more.

Reds 1938-46 --McKechnie
rank 4-1-1-3-4-2-3-7-6

McKechnie previously won pennants in Pittsburgh and St Louis, which were contending teams before he arrived and after he left. I will vote for McKechnie primariliy for his work in Boston and Cincinnati.

Unless there is a bandwagon for Billy Southworth, I will support McKechnie first. St Louis was a powerhouse before Southworth arrived and after he left, moreso than the Pirates and Cardinals before and after McKechnie. The real feather in his cap is the final flurry of the Boston Braves, with one pennant and five winning seasons in six years.

Braves 1946-51 --Southworth
rank 4-3-1-4-4-4

(Checking their records at Baseball-Reference today, I learned that player Southworth succeeded McKechnie as manager for the first half of the 1929 season. That team played about .500 for both of them, a down year.)

jalbright

10-12-2009, 01:40 PM

We have achieved a quorum on the contributor side as well.

jalbright

10-12-2009, 01:46 PM

1. Pie Traynor
2. Bob Caruthers
3. Willie Keeler
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Bill Terry
6. Biz Mackey
7. Elmer Flick
8. Earl Averill
9. Charlie Bennett
10. Willie Foster
11. Jack Glasscock
12. Bid McPhee

Johnny Mize doesn't even make your ballot??????? I sincerely hope that's an oversight on your part--or I think the voting thus far indicates you should justify his complete omission from your ballot, as all 11 other votes so far have him #1.

PVNICK

10-12-2009, 02:12 PM

Johnny Mize doesn't even make your ballot??????? I sincerely hope that's an oversight on your part--or I think the voting thus far indicates you should justify his complete omission from your ballot, as all 11 other votes so far have him #1.

Yeah I guess the coffee didn't kick in yet. Since I was revising I put Dandridge in as well, for good measure.

1. Johnny Mize
2. Pie Traynor
3. Bob Caruthers
4. Willie Keeler
5. Stan Coveleski
6. Bill Terry
7. Biz Mackey
8. Elmer Flick
9. Ray Dandridge
10. Earl Averill
11. Charlie Bennett
12. Willie Foster

Paul Wendt

10-12-2009, 06:02 PM

Ah, well, I suppose I must be encouraged that another vote for Jack Glasscock is coming soon. At the Hall of Merit they rate him number four behind Dahlen, White, and Hines among all 1876-1942 major league players who are not in the Hall of Fame. That is, number four in the jurisdiction of Cooperstown's new "pre-1943" veterans committee. The first three and #12 Sherry Magee have been elected here where I am still Glasscock's only supporter.

Reference: Hall of Merit Ballot, Discussion, and Result Threads (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/hall_of_merit_ballot_discussion_and_results_thread ) (see "HOM/Not HOF" Results, Ballots, and Discussion "Group 3")

J W

10-13-2009, 10:51 AM

??? You mean from players that have yet to be elected to the Hall of Merit? I thought Dahlen was in already.

Paul Wendt

10-13-2009, 11:34 AM

I have revised #28, elaborating it and providing a link.

--number four among players eligible for but not in Cooperstown, who played in the major leagues before 1943. The ranking #1 to 21 covers only the Hall of Merit members; by implication they are the best available 21.

add: Today that ranking would cover 20 Hall of Merit members; it preceded Cooperstown's election of Joe Gordon #16. Yankees Gordon and Charlie Keller are the only two of 21 or 20 who are not yet eligible here. We will soon advance to the chronological territory of another Cooperstown veterans committee, the living Hall of Fame players, whose jurisdiction is major league players who debuted after 1942 and retired more than twenty years ago.

jalbright

10-13-2009, 02:49 PM

??? You mean from players that have yet to be elected to the Hall of Merit? I thought Dahlen was in already.

Dahlen's in. See post #5 for confirmation.

Freakshow

10-13-2009, 08:43 PM

1 Johnny Mize
2 Joe Start
3 Bid McPhee
4 Billy Herman
5 Red Faber
6 Wes Ferrell
7 Elmer Flick
8 George Gore
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Frank Grant
11 Willie Foster
12 Red Ruffing

jaxxr

10-15-2009, 03:14 PM

Paul Wendt

10-15-2009, 04:49 PM

> I am sure I am an exception, in placing Bill Terry above Johnn Mize in the rankings.

Yes, indeed, for the other ballots cast to date all put Mize at number one.

By the record Mize seems to be one of the all-time great batters like Brouthers and Connor, Foxx and Gehrig, Bagwell and Thomas --roughly. I'm not sure that shortstops differ so much by fielding value to overcome the gap between Mize and Terry as batters, and they are merely firstbasemen.

Further, comparing Mize and Terry as quality batters is more certain those comparisons of Mize to all-time greats. Gehrig and Foxx overlapped the timespan of his major league playing career a little more than Terry did, but they played in the other league. Terry played in the NL, always for the New York Giants during the Polo Grounds era, as a regular 1925 to 1936. Mize played in the NL 1936 to 1949 including five seasons for the New York Giants of the Polo Grounds. He did miss the extremely favorable conditions for batters in NL 1930, which boosted raw batting records (Terry batted .401, yes, but the Giants team batted .319). He also missed the three important WWII seasons, which boosted the league leaderships and other ranks in league (for example, teammate Stan Musial played two of three; Terry was already retired). He retired before integration advanced far and played all of his best seasons before 1949, when his own team (still the Giants) integrated significantly.

jalbright

10-15-2009, 05:54 PM

1 Addie Joss
2 Willie Keeler
3 Bid McPhee
4 Chuck Klien
5 Bill Terry
6 Johhny Mize
7 Dizzy Dean
8 Pie Traynor
9 Willie Foster
10 Elmer Flick
11 Ray Dandridge
12 Stan Coveleski

I am sure I am an exception, in placing Bill Terry above Johnn Mize in the rankings. Mize was certainly the better all around hitter, and possibly the very slightly better all around ball player as well.
Defense at 1B is often overlooked, and under appreciated, Terry was outstanding with great range. Bill was also is a bit better base runner.

His "Fame" as the 8th best hitter, via BA, of the 20th Century, is well evidenced by his .341 career average. Being the last NL player to ever hit the benchmark .400, must count as something truly famous.
Lastly, his duration of eligibility, in my view at least, forces me to rate Terry ahead.

Thank you for explaining your position. While I definitely disagree with your conclusion, it is a rational enough position, and the ballot will stand as is unless you choose to change it.

That said, I look at a number of things in evaluating players. One I like to look at, years as an All-Star, is useless in this comparison, because the game started near the end of Terry's career. However, the other indicators I look at with one exception (and that not hugely out of step for reasons I will discuss below) all favor Mize, some significantly:

Player Mize Terry
career 338 278
top 3 100 93
5consec 154 142
per 162 29.06 26.17
OPS+ 158 136
PA 7371 7111
Black 50 12
Gray 202 154
stds 47 42
MVP 2.46 2.72

The top four are win shares based, the next two are self-explanatory, the next two are the "inks", the next to last Bill James' HOF standards, and the last MVP shares. Please note none of the above gives Mize any credit for the three years he lost to the service in WW II. At least some of the categories would be even more lopsidedly in his favor if he had been able to play those seasons. Mize wins in all but the MVP shares, and, with the three missing seasons plus the fact Terry may well have picked up a little extra support in MVP voting some years because he also managed his club in five seasons as a player-manager, Mize is hardly outclassed there, either. Terry had a very nice career, but I think the record is quite clear that Mize had an even better one, even without credit for his wartime service. Usually, I consider that issue as well, and that further cements the case for Mize IMHO.

jaxxr

10-16-2009, 08:32 AM

I stated before in my post, that I realize Mize is probably a bit better player,

If some feel obliged to remind me of my own perspective, by listing various stats, that's fine and they are usually interesting to read.

Bill Terry is more "overdue", than Johhny Mize, and the value of his defense is hard to quantify, despite.. "Merely"... being a firstbaseman.

I am sure the exploits of guys like Dick Stuart and Cecil Felder may have enhanced the false perception that 1B is unimportant to a team,
fellows like Wes Parker, Keith Hernandez, and Bill Terry saved many uncounted runs by digging balls out the dirt, stretching for wide throws, and stopping potential extra base hits down the line.

In the real world,
Bill Terry was elected to the official Baseball Hall of Fame in 1954, that's four years ago in this message board scenario, via the regular election process. Johnny Mize never got more than 43 % of the vote from the regular electors, and in 1981 the Veterans Committee finally realized he was qualified.

Being the last .400 hitter in the history of the National League, is likely more enduring, and true "Fame", in baseball, than any internet ranking relative to Johnny Mize.

J W

10-16-2009, 12:23 PM

jalbright

10-16-2009, 06:11 PM

Some housekeeping first. We've gotten votes from all of last election's voters except leecemark, Brad Harris ballots (both elections in each case) , and Paul Wendt's contributor ballot. If I haven't seen their votes by Monday, I'll PM them then.

Next year, we'll add two names to the contributor ballot, Ford Frick and George Weiss. Weiss may get on the bottom of my ballot next year, and if he doesn't, it won't be long before he does. On the player side, we'll add the following eligibles:

Brecheen , Harry
DiMaggio , Joe
Kinder , Ellis
Nicholson , Bill
Starffin , Victor
Vander Meer , Johnny

Joe D. is the obvious hot candidate, but I'm not going to wait long before Japan-leaguer Starffin also makes my ballot.

Paul Wendt

10-21-2009, 08:55 AM

Contributors
1 JL Wilkinson
2 JG Taylor Spink
3 Frank Selee
4 Clark Griffith
5 Tom Connolly

It looks like we won't wait for Casey Stengel to retire from the dugout. I don't object to his election but I'm happier chiming in on Tom Connolly, the first and foremost American League umpire. I voted him almost twenty years ago and he has recently garnered a couple others so it's time for me to return.

J W

10-21-2009, 09:31 AM

Eh... not to high on Stengel with other managers on the board, but at least we're electing one. I hope it doesn't take us long for the rest to fall in line.

Brad Harris

10-22-2009, 02:07 PM

Players
1. Johnny Mize
2. Joe Start
3. Red Ruffing
4. Joe Medwick
5. Billy Herman
6. Stan Hack
7. Willie Foster
8. Harry Stovey
9. Ezra Sutton
10. Willie Keeler
11. George Gore
12. Red Faber

Contributors
1. J.G. Taylor Spink
2. Larry MacPhail
3. Frank Selee
4. Casey Stengel
5. J.L. Wilkinson

jalbright

10-22-2009, 03:23 PM

Just over 30 1/2 hours to go in this election as I type this.

Paul Wendt

10-23-2009, 04:24 PM

user AG2004 on Tom Connolly

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1414259&postcount=26
(This selection is entire concerning Connolly.)
>>
The National League selected the person it considered the best umpire for the World Series. The American League used a rotation, as Ban Johnson claimed that all of its umpires were good enough for the World Series.

Still, it looks like Tom Connolly was the first among equals among AL umpires. He was an NL umpire for three years in the 1890s before he quit, protesting the league's failure to back up umpires. Still, he gained a reputation for quality during that time; Ban Johnson hired him, sight unseen, for the AL, based on Connie Mack's reputation.

Connolly was the AL's umpire of choice for landmark games. He was the umpire for the first-ever American League game, and was named the league's umpire for the first World Series in 1903. He was also given the assignments for the first games at Shibe Park, Comiskey Field, Fenway Park, and Yankee Stadium. Overall, he umpired in eight world series

After the 1931 season, with 34 major league seasons to his credit, he "retired" from active duty to become the AL's supervisor of umpires, the first person to hold that position in any league, and has been credited with improving the performance of umpires in the Junior Circuit.
<<

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1453565#post1453565
(redundant)

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1504086#post1504086
(long. This selection entirely from quotation of the SABR biography by David Anderson (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?...=1224&pid=2755))
>>
Because he worked in the League's first season, it is easy to note Connolly's career as one of firsts. It is an impressive list, especially when it is understood his on field performance justified many of the firsts. Simply put, Tommy Connolly was one of the greatest umpires to ever take the field. Connolly umpired the first American League ever played when Chicago hosted Cleveland. He also umpired inaugural games at Shibe Park in Philadelphia, Fenway Park in Boston and Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. He and Hank O'Day were selected to officiate in the first World Series in 1903. Connolly subsequently umpired in seven other fall classics. Connolly umpired in the Junior Circuit until June 1931, when he retired as a field umpire and was named American League Umpire in Chief by League President Will Harridge.

He served in that position until retiring in January 1954. His hiring by Harridge came at a time when nearly every team in the league was unhappy with the quality of umpiring. To address the issue, Connolly instituted many reforms, including scouting the minor leagues for umpiring talent. When a prospect was identified, Connolly would often do the evaluation personally.
<<

Paul Wendt

10-23-2009, 09:48 PM

Two of the next four position players in my queue have similar PAs and OPS+: Earl Averill, and Bill Terry. One was an above-average center fielder and one the aforementioned slick fielding first baseman.

Which one is closer to (or higher on) your ballot?

Averill.
I'll say more, early in the new year, although I suppose almost everyone here knows one or two reasons why neither one is very close.

JW,
At the same time what do you think of Pete Hill? I ask knowing that you are Frank Grant's strongest supporter, based partly on his discussion at the Hall of Merit.
(All: Grant was elected in 1926 after almost twenty years eligible but too early for individual player threads. There isn't a lot in "Frank Grant".)

jalbright

10-24-2009, 10:06 AM

We had 15 player ballots and 12 contributor ballots. On the player side, we inducted Billy Herman, Willie Keeler and Johnny Mize. The complete results:

Player………… votes pts
Mize, Johnny 15 175
Keeler , Willie 14 80
Herman, Billy 11 77
Foster, Willie 11 65
Flick , Elmer 9 52
Hack, Stan 7 47
Stovey , Harry 7 43
Start , Joe 4 42
Traynor , Pie 6 42
Medwick, Joe 7 41
Ruffing , Red 5 39
McPhee , Bid 6 38
Mackey, Biz 5 35
Groh , Heinie 5 31
Coveleski , S 5 28
Terry , Bill 4 28
Klein, Chuck 3 25
Beckwith, John 5 24
Carey , Max 2 21
Gore , George 4 21
Ferrell, Wes 3 18
Grant , Frank 3 18
Sutton , Ezra 5 17
Thompson , S 2 17
Galvin , Pud 3 15
Bennett , C 3 13
Joss , Addie 1 12
Caruthers , B 1 10
Berger , Wally 1 9
Faber , Red 2 9
Smith, Hilton 1 9
Hill , Pete….. 1 8
Maranville , R 2 8
Dandridge, Ray 2 6
Dean, Dizzy 1 6
Glasscock , J 1 6
McGinnity , Joe 2 6
Averill, Earl 3 5
Duffy , Hugh 2 5
Jennings , H 1 5
Sewell , Joe 1 5
McCormick , J 2 4
Roush , Edd 1 3
Wallace , Bobby 1 2

On the contributor side, we inducted Casey Stengel. The complete results:

Contributor………. votes pts
Stengel , Casey 9 35
MacPhail , La 9 23
Spink, JGT 8 23
Selee , Frank 8 19
Huggins , M 7 18
Taylor , C. I. 2 10
Doubleday , A 2 8
Wilkinson, JL 3 8
Connolly , Tom 3 6
Bolden, Ed 1 5
Chance , Frank 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Pearce, Dickey 1 4
Caylor , O. P. 1 3
Griffith , C 2 3
Southworth, B 1 3
Conlon , C 1 2