Natural Hitting

[Jake Patterson]

Sean I see you have returned...
There has been much discussion on Natural Hitting in your absence.

Several thoughts:
1. Many fee we over-complicate hitting, especially with youth hitters.
2. Too many have re-packaged the basics further complicating how we teach versus simplifying what it is we should teach.
3. Teaching a "MLB swing" to youngsters is problematic.

Thoughts??

[virg]

MLB swing is an image, unreal without timing if the swing is to be about a ball. A swing can be seen but timing is invisible. Will you teach the timing first, last, or when; and how?

[407hitter]

Sean I see you have returned...
There has been much discussion on Natural Hitting in your absence.

Several thoughts:
1. Many fee we over-complicate hitting, especially with youth hitters.
2. Too many have re-packaged the basics further complicating how we teach versus simplifying what it is we should teach.
3. Teaching a "MLB swing" to youngsters is problematic.

Thoughts??

Jake, Great questions.
1. Hitting has been made way too complicated. We tend to break down every little intricate movement and make these movements and places of our body parts (knees, feet, hips, elbows, hands, shoulders etc) the most important parts of the swing. I have found that if one can teach a simple movement of the whole body then the parts we tend to watch will fall into place.
2. Re-packaged mechanics with different words has been going on for years. Hey my father and I even did that ourselves for years. What we teach need to be simple and what is more simple than Spinning?
3. Teach the MLB swing is problematic if we teach the swing as a set of mechanics of moving parts of the body and moving these parts to the right Place and the right time. We need to be about teaching how to move the whole body. If you teach moving the whole body in a simple movement that any body at any age can do, then you can produce the look everybody is looking for. But it is in the understanding of what movement and what causes that movement that we should be about.

This is what I teach. 2 simple movements unrelated to hitting Spinning is one. The other is Torso to the side. But when these two movements are put together the player gets the movement of the MLB. I teach how to think and what to think in order to perform these two movements. It's so simple a Caveman can do it.:)

[407hitter]

MLB swing is an image, unreal without timing if the swing is to be about a ball. A swing can be seen but timing is invisible. Will you teach the timing first, last, or when; and how?

Great question, Timing is crucial at all levels of play. If not more crucial when the players reach the age of 12 and beyond. They will tend to see more off speed pitches because pitchers are afraid of throwing the fastball because they can't throw it very hard.

Timing is invisible, but it is also built into Natural Movement. If we are to move our body in a Natural way and that movement produces the swing then the timing is all involved in the movement of how fast or slow to work that movement to produce the swing at the right time.

Timing the pitch is built in what I teach, and is the best timing that I have ever seen. As an hitter myself I find that I wish I had this timing and Natural Movement when I was in college. I would not be talking here but playing in the MLs.

Most players have a real hard time with timing because they are mainly swinging the bat with their arms as being the predominate power creator. They are left up to deciding when to swing the bat with the arms, which produces a slower reaction time than most believe. That is why most of the swings that you see are late or early swings.

Late swings are those were the player decided to swing too late so they get fowl balls, swing and misses, dribblers in the infield, or popups.

Early swings are those were the player commits the hands and arms to soon they get a wave a the pitch where most of the body has gone to the front foot, bending over on the low pitches, no power on contact, and many others.

To correct these problems of timing for all is to change "What swings the bat" Instead of swinging with the arms Change to moving the Torso and let the Torso swing the arms and bat.

[virg]

Sometimes a swing is made to seem a batch of parts or specimens to be assembled and controlled by a dictator, rather than a flow process coordinated by a body prepared by Evolution for the job.

Coordination is the right medicine. Everybody is born with some. Introduce the essentials and conditions. Let Nature run with it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jake, Great questions.
1. Hitting has been made way too complicated. We tend to break down every little intricate movement and make these movements and places of our body parts (knees, feet, hips, elbows, hands, shoulders etc) the most important parts of the swing. I have found that if one can teach a simple movement of the whole body then the parts we tend to watch will fall into place.

Is this an assumption on your part or do you have actual students that you've worked with. Do you have any 'before' and 'after' video clips? Even having 'after' clips would be helpful. I'd like to see what students look like after going through your program.

[Erik]

Is this an assumption on your part or do you have actual students that you've worked with. Do you have any 'before' and 'after' video clips? Even having 'after' clips would be helpful. I'd like to see what students look like after going through your program.



FFS,

Sean posted this yesterday. I am back and hard at it, working on videos for you-tube for you all to see some more explanations. I have started the videos and found that I have a technical problem with my microphone, so it is going to take longer than I taught.





EL

[FiveFrameSwing]

Great. Look forward to that video.

I get a little concerned when someone states that they teach "spinning". But I have enough respect for Dixon's work to be open minded enough to try and understand what is being advocated.

[FiveFrameSwing]

p.s.

Erik … I can’t find evidence of a single person trained by Sean.

Has me wondering if his training approach is new and untested.

[Drill]

Heard a friend the other day call it spin hitting.


drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

"Spin hitting"?

What Sean is advocating is "spin"?

[4for4]

"Spin hitting"?

What Sean is advocating is "spin"?

Why not buy the DVDs and find out or just stop talking about it? If you can't afford them, set aside some money over the next several months until you can instead of passing judgment on information you have no knowledge of.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Have you found Sean's "spin" drills to help your hitters improve?

Do you have any evidence of his drills helping any student improve?

[4for4]

Have you found Sean's "spin" drills to help your hitters improve?

Do you have any evidence of his drills helping any student improve?

Who are you asking?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I was asking you ... but if ANYONE has had success with Sean's "spin" drills then I'd like to learn of their perceived value.

[4for4]

I was asking you ... but if ANYONE has had success with Sean's "spin" drills then I'd like to learn of their perceived value.

I have no knowledge of Sean's drills and therefore can't comment on them. I don't think it fair to cast negatively on them when they are unknown to you. Others have them but won't speak about them out of respect for Sean's work. So I'm asking that you either purchase and review the material or leave the subject alone.

[FiveFrameSwing]

He’s been advertising here and elsewhere for a few weeks. I would think by now that someone has purchased his material and found it useful. So far it has been referred to as “spin hitting”. I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the notion that this is a ‘negative’. It depends on the context in which Sean is advocating that a hitter “spin”.

I may have the intent of this thread incorrect. I believe Jake started this thread for others to become more familiar with Sean’s work. Otherwise it was a pure commercial … and Jake wouldn’t do that.

So, let's hear it ... do we have any posters here that have purchased Sean's DVDs and found them helpful?

[azmatsfan]

To me the word "spin" is no worse or better than "rotation". What matters is what the person means by that word.

[4for4]

He’s been advertising here and elsewhere for a few weeks. I would think by now that someone has purchased his material and found it useful. So far it has been referred to as “spin hitting”. I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the notion that this is a ‘negative’. It depends on the context in which Sean is advocating that a hitter “spin”.

I may have the intent of this thread incorrect. I believe Jake started this thread for others to become more familiar with Sean’s work. Otherwise it was a pure commercial … and Jake wouldn’t do that.

So, let's here it ... do we have any posters here that have purchased Sean's DVDs and found them helpful?

You are making this hard on me and the rest of the readers. Jake started the thread and asked some general questions on Sean's take that appear to be directed at Sean's years of experience rather the actual content of his DVD. See e.g.:



Several thoughts:
1. Many fee we over-complicate hitting, especially with youth hitters.
2. Too many have re-packaged the basics further complicating how we teach versus simplifying what it is we should teach.
3. Teaching a "MLB swing" to youngsters is problematic.

Thoughts??




I would think by now that someone has purchased his material and found it useful.

And


So, let's here it ... do we have any posters here that have purchased Sean's DVDs and found them helpful?

Isn't your tactic here disingenuous in light of the fact that Drill said he purchased and got value out of the DVD'ss and RayR indicated to you that he would not divulge the information in Sean's DVD's after your incessant request to reveal same? I would ask that you not engage this way. It only servers to derail threads.

[azmatsfan]

This is what I teach. 2 simple movements unrelated to hitting Spinning is one. The other is Torso to the side. But when these two movements are put together the player gets the movement of the MLB. I teach how to think and what to think in order to perform these two movements. It's so simple a Caveman can do it.:)


Is it simple enough a Caveman can teach it to his son? :) I'm curious what you mean when you say "Torso to the side." Are you talking about what many refer to as tilt when adjusting to the pitch?

Thanks.

[4for4]

To me the word "spin" is no worse or better than "rotation". What matters is what the person means by that word.

Exactly. If one wants to know what it means, buy the material and seek followup with the presenter if necessary. Very good point, Thx.

[FiveFrameSwing]

To me the word "spin" is no worse or better than "rotation". What matters is what the person means by that word.

Agree ... there are many instructors that won't use the word "rotation" because they believe it presents the wrong image and gives the student the wrong goal.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Is it simple enough a Caveman can teach it to his son? :) I'm curious what you mean when you say "Torso to the side." Are you talking about what many refer to as tilt when adjusting to the pitch?

Thanks.

I'd also be interested to know what he refers to as "spin".

4for4 .... not asking for the crown jewels to Sean's work ... I'm asking for something credibility. Do you know if Sean has trained students using the techniques he's advocating?

[FiveFrameSwing]

If one wants to know what it means, buy the material and seek followup with the presenter if necessary. Very good point, Thx.

Hmm ... if the information could be shown to be credible then I'd buy the material in a heart beat. I'd do so even if someone described what they believed to be the juicy details of his material. Why? Because if the information truly has value then I'd rather review it first-hand and not miss information that takes place through second-hand information.

The question from my vantage point is if his information is credible. This is why I'd like to know if anyone has ever been trained with the techniques he's recommending?

[4for4]

I'd also be interested in know what he refers to as "spin".

4for4 .... not asking for the crown jewels to Sean's work ... I'm asking for something credibility. Do you know if Sean has trained students using the techniques he's advocating?

I understand. I really do. But remember, he's put years into it and he believes it has value and has asked that the house not be given away.

[4for4]

Hmm ... if the information could be shown to be credible then I'd buy the material in a heart beat. I'd do so even if someone described what they believed to be the juicy details of his material. Why? Because if the information truly has value then I'd rather review it first-hand and not miss information that takes place through second-hand information.

The question from my vantage point is if his information is credible. This is why I'd like to know if anyone has ever been trained with the techniques he's recommending?

I can't recall if you've said...Have you called and presented these questions. This is a setting in which he may feel like he's not giving away his life's work to the rest of the world. I don't know, maybe this will get you there.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I understand. I really do. But remember, he's put years into it and he believes it has value and has asked that the house not be given away.

I suspect he's put years into it. It would seem reasonable that during that time that he's used the information to instruct hitters ... but, I'm coming up empty. It doesn't appear that he's used this information to instruct students.

I've purchased just about every piece of information out there that I felt had credible value ... including Steve's DVDs. Some of these people have documented what equates to a decade of their investigation into the swing ... and IMO they are selling this information at an inexpensive price when viewed on a relative basis. But these people have demonstrated that they've applied their work and have built credibility.

Sean hasn't shown one hint of his work being applied. Not only does he not appear to have students, but according to one poster here his swing is anything but "natural". Where's the beef?

[4for4]

I suspect he's put years into it. It would seem reasonable that during that time that he's used the information to instruct hitters ... but, I'm coming up empty. It doesn't appear that he's used this information to instruct students.

I've purchased just about every piece of information out there that I felt had credible value ... including Steve's DVDs. Some of these people have documented what equates to a decade of their investigation into the swing ... and IMO they are selling this information at an inexpensive price when viewed on a relative basis. But these people have demonstrated that they've applied their work and have built credibility.

Sean hasn't shown one hint of his work being applied. Not only does he not appear to have students, but according to one poster here his swing is anything but "natural". Where's the beef?

Wait for the material to season and then make an informed buy decision. But please don't incessantly ask for him or others that have purchased the material to give it away to you for free.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You make it sound like the information is brand new.

Do you think it is unreasonable for a consumer to expect verification of what they are purchasing ... in this case information leading to a "natural swing"?

Shouldn't your advice be repackaged and directed towards Sean? Let me rephrase it slightly ... "Wait for the material to be verified and then make an informed decision to sell it. But please don't incessantly ask for people to buy your material until you've verified it."

[4for4]

You make it sound like the information is brand new.

Do you think it is unreasonable for a consumer to expect verification of what they are purchasing ... in this case information leading to a "natural swing"?

Shouldn't your advice be repackaged and directed towards Sean? Let me rephrase it slightly ... "Wait for the material to be verified and then make an informed decision to sell it. But please don't incessantly ask for people to buy your material until you've verified it."

No, with all respect all of what you just wrote is idiotic and speaks more to your lack of understanding the market place. Please wise up here. You are wasting the readers time.

[FiveFrameSwing]

No, with all respect all of what you just wrote is idiotic and speaks more to your lack of understanding the market place. Please wise up here. You are wasting the readers time.

Now that is simply foolish.

Much like the Hanson Principle, I'm seeking verification.

IMO all consumers should verify that they are purchasing what they believe they are purchasing. I find it odd that you would think differently.

[4for4]

Now that is simply foolish.

Much like the Hanson Principle, I'm seeking verification.

IMO all consumers should verify that they are purchasing what they believe they are purchasing. I find it odd that you would think differently.

You've been told by two posters at this point that they think the material is good. If that's not enough, wait for the material to season and make a buy decision. As much as it seems you want, you don't get to decide Sean's business model.

[FiveFrameSwing]

When you say I can't control Sean's business model, are you suggesting that it is true that the information he is selling has never been tested? That's my concern ... that being that he's pedaling material that hasn't been tested.

I believe one instructor, Erik, has posted on Sean's material. Erik said he would put together a You-Tube video, which I assumed would better describe his opinion on the material ... but there was an excuse about a microphone not working.

So far, other than Erik, who doesn't have a working microphone to allow him to finish his comment, I'm not able to find anyone who has successfully used Sean's work to develop hitters.

[RayR]

When you say I can't control Sean's business model, are you suggesting that it is true that the information he is selling has never been tested? That's my concern ... that being that he's pedaling material that hasn't been tested.

I believe one instructor, Erik, has posted on Sean's material. Erik said he would put together a You-Tube video, which I assumed would better describe his opinion on the material ... but there was an excuse about a microphone not working.

So far, other than Erik, who doesn't have a working microphone to allow him to finish his comment, I'm not able to find anyone who has successfully used Sean's work to develop hitters.

To be clear.

Erik was passing along a note from Sean. Sean is one who is working on video, not Erik.

[FiveFrameSwing]

To be clear.

Erik was passing along a note from Sean. Sean is one who is working on video, not Erik.

Thank you for the clarification.

[4for4]

When you say I can't control Sean's business model, are you suggesting that it is true that the information he is selling has never been tested? That's my concern ... that being that he's pedaling material that hasn't been tested.

I believe one instructor, Erik, has posted on Sean's material. Erik said he would put together a You-Tube video, which I assumed would better describe his opinion on the material ... but there was an excuse about a microphone not working.

So far, other than Erik, who doesn't have a working microphone to allow him to finish his comment, I'm not able to find anyone who has successfully used Sean's work to develop hitters.

Then don't buy the material. Or buy the material and make a judgment. This incessant attempt by you to get the info for free is at best silly.

[Erik]

Thank you for the clarification.

FFS,

the way to find out about Seans material is to order the DVD. This will give you the ability to study the information yourself and make a decision to the value.




EL,

[FiveFrameSwing]

Then don't buy the material. Or buy the material and make a judgment. This incessant attempt by you to get the info for free is at best silly.

I may have missed it. Did you say that his information has been verified and used to instruct students?

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS,

the way to find out about Seans material is to order the DVD. This will give you the ability to study the information yourself and make a decision to the value.




EL,

I understand your position Erik.

Now understand my position. I'd like verification that Sean's material has been used to successfully instruct students. Do you have knowledge of students that have been successful using his teachings?

[4for4]

I may have missed it. Did you say that his information has been verified and used to instruct students?

Yes, you missed what I said. Try to stop doing that.

[Erik]

I understand your position Erik.

Now understand my position. I'd like verification that Sean's material has been used to successfully instruct students. Do you have knowledge of students that have been successful using his teachings?


FFS,

I'm also interested in seeing players that have used Seans material to build their swing. I don't know of any players that have used his information from the DVD's. I'm sure Sean will be addressing this very soon!!



EL

[Fivensbaseball]

I AM TORSO.

TORSO WANTS TO GO OVER THERE.

TORSO WANTS TO HIT THE BALL.

I couldnt' take the first DVD so I didn't watch the second one yet.

[calgofo]

I understand your position Erik.

Now understand my position. I'd like verification that Sean's material has been used to successfully instruct students. Do you have knowledge of students that have been successful using his teachings?

FFS,

Your continued attempts to try and logically discern if this method is of value is quite disconcerting. It is clear that you are asking pertinent and rational questions as to the relative value of this material and your trying to get valid feedback to be able to disern, with a critical eye. The material could be the greatest hitting material available or it could be hucksterism of the highest order. Your continued efforts to try to separate which is which is annoying.

You are probably the kind of guy who actually reads performance and reliability data on the cars you buy, the house you own, and probably even read the fine print in your morgage.

Your continued use of appropriate interrogatories is not acceptable here.

You have been clearly instructed as to the location of the Kool-Aid.

Please go drink it and refrain from further postings in this regard. :disbelief::D

[Drill]

You make it sound like the information is brand new.

Do you think it is unreasonable for a consumer to expect verification of what they are purchasing ... in this case information leading to a "natural swing"?

Shouldn't your advice be repackaged and directed towards Sean? Let me rephrase it slightly ... "Wait for the material to be verified and then make an informed decision to sell it. But please don't incessantly ask for people to buy your material until you've verified it."




You can look at other threads that have page after page of advice, he teaches a style of hitting that I find interesting. Why? Because its so easy to understand and do. I bought the DVD's watched a ball game and I saw the same thing in good hits produced by good hitters. He talks about his research, this is what he saw in all good swings.

Now if you are into picking apart the swing you will not like this method because it is not complicated.

But if you want to pick it apart, anytime you see a batter hit the ball; Its right there in front of you. Watch the torso spin. I have heard it called spin hitting. It just a easy way to do rotational without getting all complicated.

IMHO,

drill

[FiveFrameSwing]

You can look at other threads that have page after page of advice, he teaches a style of hitting that I find interesting. Why? Because its so easy to understand and do. I bought the DVD's watched a ball game and I saw the same thing in good hits produced by good hitters. He talks about his research, this is what he saw in all good swings.

Now if you are into picking apart the swing you will not like this method because it is not complicated.

But if you want to pick it apart, anytime you see a batter hit the ball; Its right there in front of you. Watch the torso spin. I have heard it called spin hitting. It just a easy way to do rotational without getting all complicated.

IMHO,

drill


Thank you Drill.

From this I take it that you feel the information in his DVD is not all encompassing, but that you believe it is a subset of the MLB pattern … that is, when you look at MLB swings you see what Sean has described.

[Drill]

Thank you Drill.

From this I take it that you feel the information in his DVD is not all encompassing, but that you believe it is a subset of the MLB pattern … that is, when you look at MLB swings you see what Sean has described.



It looks to me to be a conclusion of research that he and his dad had done, at least this is how he presents his material.


The material and drills just make it look so easy, "a caveman can do it" sorry but that is the best way for me to describe the torso spin which if you look closely that is what we see in good hitting.

The stance could be a subset of a MLB swing too, but you have to remember that there are many styles of stances you could call a subset. We have discussed a lot of styles in this forum, but I don't remember any discussions on the best way to use the power from the crouch up to the shoulders. We have talked about using arms, legs, head, hands, eyes, balls of the feet, even breathing while swinging. These few drills that make use of the torso are so easy, it takes the guess work out of shifting and turning. It let the student/player know what to do and when. Which a lot of players need to know because they open up to soon, but don't know why. Let me remind you I am not a teacher, I am just a 59 year old learner of the swing. This is just a sneaky simple technique to gain more power with out having to think about it.

If you are going to teach this to the younger play, you better teach what a good set up is. If a pre or post puberty player is having a problem with maximizing weight shift, I would say take a look at these DVD's. It became very clear to me after watching the DVD's and watching a Yankee game right after previewing them how Mr. Dixion came up with the end result of the torso spin and how to time it with the rest of the body.

In the end, my feeling are that the 2 DVD's of materials are redundant, for the simplicity of the drills, but again I would only be arguing style of teaching up to the point of the of the turn/torso spin. The torso spin is something unique that he has researched and produced some simple drills that takes the mystery out of the weight shift and turn.

IMHO,

drill