Does everyone agree swinging down is wrong?

[R00STER]

My son's fall coach recently gave his first real hitting "tips" and he told my son to swing down at the ball. He has never said to squish the bug, or throw hands at the ball, etc. so nothing else has hinted that he was "linear" or whatever you want to call it. It go me wondering if swinging down is something that ONLY linear guys believe in, or do some people from both sides preach it (I guess you could be rotational AND swing down)? If it IS a linear thing, do even ALL linear people believe in swinging down or is that something that just varies from person to person?

Is it also safe to say that if someone believes in swinging down, that they would also be opposed to dropping the back shoulder? It seems you couldn't do both, right? If that's the case, wouldn't any photo or video of a major leaguers swing disprove the theory?

[jbooth]

My son's fall coach recently gave his first real hitting "tips" and he told my son to swing down at the ball. He has never said to squish the bug, or throw hands at the ball, etc. so nothing else has hinted that he was "linear" or whatever you want to call it. It go me wondering if swinging down is something that ONLY linear guys believe in, or do some people from both sides preach it (I guess you could be rotational AND swing down)? If it IS a linear thing, do even ALL linear people believe in swinging down or is that something that just varies from person to person?

Is it also safe to say that if someone believes in swinging down, that they would also be opposed to dropping the back shoulder? It seems you couldn't do both, right? If that's the case, wouldn't any photo or video of a major leaguers swing disprove the theory?

It is GUARANTEED that you will fail as a hitter, if you swing down through the ball. EVERY MLB hitter starts the hands down toward the ball, but NONE actually take the bat down across the path of the ball.

And, none of them keep the back shoulder up. If the coach is telling him to keep the back shoulder up and swing down, ignore him completely, and if possible, get on a different team.

[Chris O'Leary]

EVERY MLB hitter starts the hands down toward the ball, but NONE actually take the bat down across the path of the ball.

And, none of them keep the back shoulder up. If the coach is telling him to keep the back shoulder up and swing down, ignore him completely, and if possible, get on a different team.

I would clarify this as every GOOD MLB hitter doesn't chop down on the fall.

Here's Joe Thurston chopping down on the ball and lunging.



Of course, he's not blowing anyone's socks off year (.232 BA and .662 OPS).

[jbooth]

I would clarify this as every GOOD MLB hitter doesn't chop down on the fall.

Here's Joe Thurston chopping down on the ball and lunging.



Of course, he's not blowing anyone's socks off year (.232 BA and .662 OPS).

I would hope that he had 2 strikes on him and he was going for a borderline pitch, or that he got fooled. If that's remotely like his regular swing, he'll be lucky to keep hitting .232.

And even that swing didn't go down through the ball. The bathead is coming up by the time it contacts the ball.

Plus, that is not my definition of "swinging down", he went down to get a low pitch, that's not the same as swinging on a downward plane through the ball.

[Jake Patterson]

Sounds like someone regurgitating what he must have been taught and not something that SHOULD be taught.

[Chris O'Leary]

I would hope that he had 2 strikes on him and he was going for a borderline pitch, or that he got fooled. If that's remotely like his regular swing, he'll be lucky to keep hitting .232.

And even that swing didn't go down through the ball. The bathead is coming up by the time it contacts the ball.

Plus, that is not my definition of "swinging down", he went down to get a low pitch, that's not the same as swinging on a downward plane through the ball.

Here's Thurston swinging down through a higher pitch for a strike.



IMO this is a perfect example of how to minimize the time the swing plane stays in line with the plane of the pitch (basically an X).

On the upside, he would have hit the ball with a lot of backspin (which may have been the goal), if he had managed to hit it. I assume this is why Thurston can't hit anything more than doubles.

P.S. I didn't notice this before, but notice the vertical hitch, which he may do so he can chop down on the ball.

[omg]

My son's fall coach recently gave his first real hitting "tips" and he told my son to swing down at the ball. He has never said to squish the bug, or throw hands at the ball, etc. so nothing else has hinted that he was "linear" or whatever you want to call it. It go me wondering if swinging down is something that ONLY linear guys believe in, or do some people from both sides preach it (I guess you could be rotational AND swing down)? If it IS a linear thing, do even ALL linear people believe in swinging down or is that something that just varies from person to person?

Is it also safe to say that if someone believes in swinging down, that they would also be opposed to dropping the back shoulder? It seems you couldn't do both, right? If that's the case, wouldn't any photo or video of a major leaguers swing disprove the theory?

Starting down is a better thought (watch the semantics on this issue).The hands go down initially and, importantly, the barrel,ie, the business end of the bat goes down initially.

Hitters tend to focus on what their hands or the barrel are doing (understandably) and due to the split second nature of the swing
"down" is a thought.

Using the barrel as the reference point, the barrel begins down and then levels out, or even goes up, as it goes through the hitting zone and into followthrough.

So the swing has elements of down, level, and up.

[virg]

The angle of his swing is influenced by that vertical frontside. Might get a bit less "down" if he lowered early hand position. But he is a front-leg hitter and can't possibly match-up with the rotational swing models touted here.

Down isn't wrong for him as long as he's a frontleg..

[Ursa Major]

On the second swing, the reason that Thurston's bathead is still going down at "contact" is that he was so late the bathead didn't have time to start it's upward path -- which it does after he misses the ball. But, yes, by his hip slide and allowing his hands to drift forward, he's got his bat in the plane of the incoming pitch for a very short period of time. Can't they give him a camp stool and park him next to the cage every time that Pujols takes BP, and tell him, "Watch that dude."

The angle of his swing is influenced by that vertical frontside. Might get a bit less "down" if he lowered early hand position. But he is a front-leg hitter and can't possibly match-up with the rotational swing models touted here. Down isn't wrong for him.I guess you're operating under the principle of "second best" here -- given the flaws in the front end of his swing, this is the best he can do in the back end. Yeah, but the principle of second best presupposes that you can't alter the conditions that require that the actor choose a less than optimal alternative. Here, he can control how he starts the swing -- and better do so before he ends up back in Memphis... or worse.

Rooster, in that the coach doesn't seem to show the other signs of boorish, linear coaching behavior -- as you so astutely catalog -- it may be worth giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he means that the first movement of the barrel should be downwards. In fact, this could be a good cue for kids who flatten the bat before launch and then just sweep the barrel head around in a horizontal manner. In any case, pretend you agree with him and just make sure that your son understands that the bathead should start its upward path just before contact.

[Erik]

A hitter can swing down slightly and level through the ball if it's out in front. This takes special timing and has low adjustability though. I believe it's another tool in the box that can work. I see Albert P adjusting his swing paths. If the hands are high the path is more down to it most of the time.




EL,

[virg]

A "principle of second best" suggests a "best", meaning he doesn't conform to the (superior) swing model.

[jbooth]

Here's Thurston swinging down through a higher pitch for a strike.



IMO this is a perfect example of how to minimize the time the swing plane stays in line with the plane of the pitch (basically an X).

On the upside, he would have hit the ball with a lot of backspin (which may have been the goal), if he had managed to hit it. I assume this is why Thurston can't hit anything more than doubles.

P.S. I didn't notice this before, but notice the vertical hitch, which he may do so he can chop down on the ball.

Well, that IS a downward swing, and he won't last in the Majors long with that swing. Fastballs up and in, and sliders down and in, and he'll never hit.

[Jake Patterson]

I believe we need to better understand what ...
...and he told my son to swing down at the ball really means.

I have heard everything from literally swing down (chopping) at the ball to getting the hands started in a downward motion.

Again, if a coach IS regurgitating what he was told, I have found many "old dog" coaches worry more about launch to contact than they do any subsequent/post-contact action.

Rooster,
Do you have more information???

[R00STER]

Rooster,
Do you have more information???

Well not really, but he was saying it to most of the kids that day so I don't think he was trying to correct a flaw in my son's swing. It was more as you say, like regurgitating because I had not heard him really say much about hitting mechanics in weeks of practice but now all of a sudden he was preaching this swing down sermon to everyone.

[LAball]

swing down at the ball, but its gata result in a line drive or fly ball. Problem is most people dont understand it and it ends up being a grounder. Tell you the truth, I dont understand it, but I believe it. Go figure:banghead:

[virg]

I believe we need to better understand what ... really means.
I have heard everything from literally swing down (chopping) at the ball to getting the hands started in a downward motion.

Again, if a coach IS regurgitating what he was told, I have found many "old dog" coaches worry more about launch to contact than they do any subsequent/post-contact action.
Rooster,
Do you have more information???

If the batter is a standard hands-back rotational type and winds up with a vertical frontside, he is past center and has lunged or slid.
If he is the extended weight-shift type, and under good control, he belongs drifted past center with a vertical frontside at contact. (I have no idea of Thurston's best cut on a good day). Look at the G.Brett photo sequences on the cover of Lau's Art of Hitting .300; something like Thurston.

If Pujols is 6'3" and Thurston 5'11" this might suggest why the difference in choice of style. Everybody with a bat doesn't necessarily hang out around the New Rotational Movement on the Web. You can't impose the principles of one batting method intact on other methods.There are other methods that work, and watching Pujols won't fix them all

This thread started with a question: "Does everyone agree swinging down is wrong?" I agree firmly that it's wrong for a hands-back rotational hitter to swing down. I affirm that most batters are rotaters or trying to be. I disagree with any cookie-cuttin' coach's imposition of a blanket swing-down order or any other blanet order, without looking hard, first. 'Swing-down' was never my idea. Swing within your own Method, is.

[Ursa Major]

A "principle of second best" suggests a "best", meaning he doesn't conform to the (superior) swing model.Exactly! Why not conform the whole swing to a better model so you don't need to make the questionable corrections to overcome the slop in a lousy core swing?


Rooster said: Well not really, but he was saying it to most of the kids that day so I don't think he was trying to correct a flaw in my son's swing. It was more as you say, like regurgitating because I had not heard him really say much about hitting mechanics in weeks of practice but now all of a sudden he was preaching this swing down sermon to everyone.

Yeah, it sounds like he felt he needed to say something in order to justify his presence there, so he pulled out the first hoary old cue that came to his mind. You'll see that in sporting telecasts with lousy commentators, who will say something insipid because the realize that they haven't said anything for a couple of minutes, and worry that their paycheck will get docked if they don't utter something.

Reminds me of an old (60-something) assistant coach we had when Ursa Minor was 10. About every third batter, he would -- when the batter swung and missed -- stick his head around the dugout fence toward the batter and shout, "To HIT the ball, you've gotta SEE the ball." I never did figure out what that meant, but it sure made him feel like he was coaching his heart out.

[Chris O'Leary]

(I have no idea of Thurston's best cut on a good day).

This is his standard swing.



Look at the G.Brett photo sequences on the cover of Lau's Art of Hitting .300; something like Thurston.

The only time Brett looks like Thurston is when he's demonstrating this kind of swing (because that's how he THINKS he swings), not when he's swinging for real.





Everybody with a bat doesn't necessarily hang out around the New Rotational Movement on the Web.

No, but the good ones generally do.

Ichiro is the only good, non-rotational hitter in all of MLB.



There are other methods that work, and watching Pujols won't fix them all

.232 with no power is working?

[Chris O'Leary]

Yeah, it sounds like he felt he needed to say something in order to justify his presence there, so he pulled out the first hoary old cue that came to his mind. You'll see that in sporting telecasts with lousy commentators, who will say something insipid because the realize that they haven't said anything for a couple of minutes, and worry that their paycheck will get docked if they don't utter something.

Thus the whole extension school of thought.

[virg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by virg:
A "principle of second best" suggests a "best", meaning he doesn't conform to the (superior) swing model."
U-M;
"Exactly! Why not conform the whole swing to a better model so you don't need to make the questionable corrections to overcome the slop in a lousy core swing?"

Ursa, a rotater swings with his "core". A frontleg does not, cannot, shouldn't try. Mixing methods is poison.

The "better model" swing? From the WEB?

[Chris O'Leary]

Ursa, a rotater swings with his "core". A frontleg does not, cannot, shouldn't try. Mixing methods is poison.

The "better model" swing? From the WEB?

Rotators are front foot hitters.

[virg]

You know all the answers!

[R00STER]

...Yeah, it sounds like he felt he needed to say something in order to justify his presence there...

You know, this is a very good point. That's exactly what I think he was doing. At this particular practice, this head coach was pitching for BP and he was putting a little more speed into his pitches than normal, so there were alot of misses. I'll bet you're exactly right that he felt he needed to say something "coachy".

[calgofo]

You know, this is a very good point. That's exactly what I think he was doing. At this particular practice, this head coach was pitching for BP and he was putting a little more speed into his pitches than normal, so there were alot of misses. I'll bet you're exactly right that he felt he needed to say something "coachy".

As Ursa said and you agree, this is probably the case. The problem is, if you said "swing down on the ball" and he said it, and I said it, it could probably in the end, be 3 different meanings for that cue. Most cues mean different things to different people. One sure fire way to find out, as with any cue, is to ask the coach what HE means by swining down on the ball. If he can't give you a reasoned and logical explanation, then, there's your answer.

[bob_r]

To me slotting the elbow brings the hands down from the load position, maybe the swinging down is the cue needed to slot the elbow and if you couple that with rotation you might think your actually swinging down at the ball.