Booing Jim Thome question:

[whitesox901:]

When Jim Thome would come to bat in Cleveland as a visitor he was meet with boos and jeers. And I've always wondered, was it because he was a White Sox, or because he left Cleveland as a free agent and decided to go else where instead of staying in Cleveland town?

Thanks.

[EdTarbusz]

In my opinion, the Cleveland fans were unfair to Thome. The Indians gave Thome a lowball offer and certain members of the Cleveland media (most notably Mike Trivisano) used Thome's refusal to re-sign to whip up anti-Thome sentiment among the Cleveland fans. This was nothing new, the same thing was done to Albert Belle when he left the team.

[Philly-brownsfan]

From what I remember of Thome leaving The Tribe for the Phillies after the 2002 season - Thome's first reaction was to take the "hometown discount" that Cleveland was offering him. It took some Meddling from Player's Union representatives (whose main concern is to keep players' salaries escalating)
before Thome eventually rejected the Indians offer and agreed to the Phillies higher offer. In light of that, he's probably undeserving of Indians Fans boos.

[ACrank]

In my opinion, the Cleveland fans were unfair to Thome. The Indians gave Thome a lowball offer and certain members of the Cleveland media (most notably Mike Trivisano) used Thome's refusal to re-sign to whip up anti-Thome sentiment among the Cleveland fans. This was nothing new, the same thing was done to Albert Belle when he left the team.

Uh huh....

Of course Thome's about "having to tear the shirt off of my back" had nothing to do with it at all.

Or Phillies guaranteeing a 6th year for a guy with a bad back playing on a turf field.

Nah, not at all.

Now if you want to talk realistically i remember reading that the Indians had a deal on the table - sending Thome to the Red Sox, but they backed out because of Thome's press conference.

But if you want to talk realistically realize that there are two sides to the story - and the other side isn't always, "Dolan is cheap".

[ACrank]

From what I remember of Thome leaving The Tribe for the Phillies after the 2002 season - Thome's first reaction was to take the "hometown discount" that Cleveland was offering him. It took some Meddling from Player's Union representatives (whose main concern is to keep players' salaries escalating)
before Thome eventually rejected the Indians offer and agreed to the Phillies higher offer. In light of that, he's probably undeserving of Indians Fans boos.

Well he was deserving of the boos up to the point that the Phillies moved him to Chicago. That wasn't his choice.

Unfortunately being dealt to a team in the same division was rubbing salt in the wounds of a bunch of suicidal fans who apparently enjoy cutting themselves anyhow.

[EdTarbusz]

Of course Thome's about "having to tear the shirt off of my back" had nothing to do with it at all.

.

That was just negotiating hot-air. Fans that were realistic about players contracts understood that. The same fans knew that the Indians were on the way down and the chance that Thome would re-sign with the Indians was pretty small.

I don't remember the Indians having a deal with the Red Sox. I doubt if anything that Thome said would have stopped it.

[ACrank]

It may certainly have been negotiating hot air, however to this (and other) Indian fans it certainly wasn't viewed as such...

Doesn't it make you wonder why really no other Indian who left for Free Agency and come back to play in Cleveland against the Indians have had the same response that Thome did?

Thome lied. Or at the very least proved he was no better then any other player. And that wouldn't have been an issue if he hadn't opened his mouth in the first place.

As a result there are a lot of people who are still pissed off at him.

You may disagree with it - that's fine (i, myself, can understand it but feel its foolish to carry it on for this length of time) but to believe that his statement had nothing at all to do with the Indians fans reactions to him is just plain foolishness.

BTW i wish i still had the link re: Thome possibly being traded to Boston, but i don't. It was long enough ago that Peter Gammons was wrting for the Boston Globe and his columns were available for free on the internet (ah, the good old days). So i can't blame you if you don't believe me - i can only go by what i remember.

[EdTarbusz]

It may certainly have been negotiating hot air, however to this (and other) Indian fans it certainly wasn't viewed as such...

.

I'm sure there were three or four Indians fans who took Thome's comments at face value.

[EdTarbusz]

Doesn't it make you wonder why really no other Indian who left for Free Agency and come back to play in Cleveland against the Indians have had the same response that Thome did?



BTW i wish i still had the link re: Thome possibly being traded to Boston, but i don't. It was long enough ago that Peter Gammons was wrting for the Boston Globe and his columns were available for free on the internet (ah, the good old days). So i can't blame you if you don't believe me - i can only go by what i remember.

The former Indian who got the worst response ay Jacobs Field was probably Albert Belle.

I don't remember any talk about Thome going to Boston, but I had also forgotten how the Players Association had gotten involved in the negotiations.

[ACrank]

I'm sure there were three or four Indians fans who took Thome's comments at face value.

So it's "three or four" Indian fans that are the ones booing Thome? Wow they have strong lungs....

[ACrank]

The former Indian who got the worst response ay Jacobs Field was probably Albert Belle.

I don't remember any talk about Thome going to Boston, but I had also forgotten how the Players Association had gotten involved in the negotiations.

yes - the players association and his "rock" had undue influence on his decision, and if he wanted to stay in Cleveland he certainly knuckled under to them then....

[EdTarbusz]

So it's "three or four" Indian fans that are the ones booing Thome? Wow they have strong lungs....

It was probably three or four fans who actually believed that Thome would stay.

[EdTarbusz]

yes - the players association and his "rock" had undue influence on his decision, and if he wanted to stay in Cleveland he certainly knuckled under to them then....

I highly doubt if he would have stayed anyway. How many big name free agents do you recall the Indians actually re-signing? I can't think of any. Cleveland has never had much success signing big-name free agents who were still in their prime. I can think of three: Wayne Garland, Jack McDowell and Roberto Alomar.

[ACrank]

It was probably three or four fans who actually believed that Thome would stay.

mention this topic and watch the responses to it...you will definitely be surprised as the response. There are variations to it, but for the most part the majority of the Indians fans i have known from these various boards feel the way i do (or stronger) about the subject.

[ACrank]

I highly doubt if he would have stayed anyway. How many big name free agents do you recall the Indians actually re-signing? I can't think of any. Cleveland has never had much success signing big-name free agents who were still in their prime. I can think of three: Wayne Garland, Jack McDowell and Roberto Alomar.

Again there weren't many free agents who left Cleveland who gotten the response that Thome had gotten, and continues to get, from the Indians fan base.

Your ignorance of a basic fact astounds me.

[EdTarbusz]

In my opinion, anyone who booed Thome had no idea about the economics of the game and the realities of Cleveland Indians baseball. I felt that they were typical bandwagon fans of the Jacobs Field era.

[EdTarbusz]

Again there weren't many free agents who left Cleveland who gotten the response that Thome had gotten, and continues to get, from the Indians fan base.

Your ignorance of a basic fact astounds me.

That was the price Thome played for being among the most popular Indians of the 1990s.

[ACrank]

In my opinion, anyone who booed Thome had no idea about the economics of the game and the realities of Cleveland Indians baseball. I felt that they were typical bandwagon fans of the Jacobs Field era.

then i would not have - again we have differing opinions of the same issue, but at the time Thome made his comment the feelings were, not only of myself but more then three or four other Indian fans, was that Thome was going to stay - somehow it would get done and Thome would be retiring as a Cleveland Indian.

[ACrank]

That was the price Thome played for being among the most popular Indians of the 1990s.

by his 'tear the shirt off of my back" comment....

[EdTarbusz]

by his 'tear the shirt off of my back" comment....

Like I said before: hot air.

[EdTarbusz]

then i would not have - again we have differing opinions of the same issue, but at the time Thome made his comment the feelings were, not only of myself but more then three or four other Indian fans, was that Thome was going to stay - somehow it would get done and Thome would be retiring as a Cleveland Indian.

The chance that Thome was going to retire as an Indian was somewhere between slim and none, especially after Charlie Manuel was fired. The Indians were on their way down at the time he left and I don't think he could be blamed for wanting to play for a contender. If he had been a free agent in the mid 1990s. I think the chances of him re-signing would have been much better.

[ACrank]

that's not the issue.

This thread isn't about whether or not Thome would have resigned with the Indians, but why Thome is still getting booed when he plays in Cleveland.

[ACrank]

Like I said before: hot air.

and as i said before - i invite you to go to any other Indians forum and make that same statement....

And at the risk of upsetting the mods of this board (please feel free to delete if need be - just doing this to make a point) visit this link to read some reactions of Indians fans who disagree with you about Thome's comment being "hot air"

http://swerbsblurbs.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15821&sid=775e0711d5275a73933464f0d83556b3

[EdTarbusz]

and as i said before - i invite you to go to any other Indians forum and make that same statement....

And at the risk of upsetting the mods of this board (please feel free to delete if need be - just doing this to make a point) visit this link to read some reactions of Indians fans who disagree with you about Thome's comment being "hot air"

http://swerbsblurbs.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15821&sid=775e0711d5275a73933464f0d83556b3

Interact with a couple of people who act like Thome's leaving was a personal affront to them? I'll pass.

[ACrank]

because you might actually learn something....

[EdTarbusz]

because you might actually learn something....

I find that very doubtful.

[PVNICK]

Sometimes its good to see how the other side thinks, you don't have to move in with them. Unless you are afraid you might wind up being wrong. In which case you can keep it to yourself. Very low risk.:D

[EdTarbusz]

Sometimes its good to see how the other side thinks, you don't have to move in with them. Unless you are afraid you might wind up being wrong. In which case you can keep it to yourself. Very low risk.:D

I checked it out and wasn't very impressed. It reminded of some of the people who post about activities in Parma. I'll pass.

[ACrank]

I find that very doubtful.

The question of this thread is why do Indians fans still boo Jim Thome?

I explained why i felt Indians fans boo Thome - told you that more then three or four people actually believed that Thome lied when he made his "hot air negotiating statement" about "having to tear the shirt off of my back".

And you continued to downplay my statements questioning that people actually believe that.

I invited you to find out that people actually do believe that, and you decided not to because you didn't want to converse or read statements from people who took Thome leaving as a slap in the face (by the way - it wasn't Thome leaving that they took as a slap in the face - it was how Thome left, but of course you won't believe that).

You can continue to believe what you wish, but i'm telling you you are misreading what Indians fans believe regarding Jim Thome and you really don't understand why they continue to boo him.

[ACrank]

I checked it out and wasn't very impressed. It reminded of some of the people who post about activities in Parma. I'll pass.

You must be afraid to admit that you are wrong about why Thome gets booed by Indians fans.

[EdTarbusz]

You can continue to believe what you wish, but i'm telling you you are misreading what Indians fans believe regarding Jim Thome and you really don't understand why they continue to boo him.

I understand why people boo Thome. I think they are 100% wrong and have little understanding about how baseball works,

[ACrank]

I understand why people boo Thome. I think they are 100% wrong and have little understanding about how baseball works,

And the interesting thing is a lot of the people, especially on the thread i linked to, probably have more "understanding about how baseball works" then you and i combined.

You forget, i think, that you are dealing with fans, especially with fans of a different era, and how fans and phrases including the word "understanding" often have no correlation at all.

The point is Indians fans boo Thome, rightly or wrongly, because of the statement he made about "having to tear the shirt off of my back". It might indeed have been a negotiating tactic on his part, and if my memories are accurate then that negotiating tactic killed a possible deadline deal for Thome, but neither one of those are really important in terms of the Indians fanbase.

You can argue all you want the intelligence of the Indians fan in carrying the grudge for this length of time, and i would hope you would understand by my responses in this thread that i agree more then disagree with you, but that's really not the issue at hand here, is it?

More then three or four Indians fans, myself included, feel that Thome lied when he made his now infamous statement.

Remember the time that this statement was made too. The Indians were coming off of the run of the 90s, and the fans felt that it just wasn't going to end. Looking back at it now yes, it was foolish to believe that. But did they realize it at that time? No, and the truth is many Indian fans were spoiled rotten by that time frame believing that it should never have ended and painting the Dolan's and Shapiro as villians in causing it to end (instead of the combination of the end of a perfect storm of circumstaances with the Indians and the change in economy in North East Ohio).

Yeah, in looking back on it now you are entirely correct.

The problem is we didn't have access to the time machine necessary to push ourselves into the future to look at what would happen. (And for many Indian fans they are still looking for that time machine to plop them firmly in the past where the 90s never end.)

Thome never should have made that statement. If he hadn't people at least would have taken his signing with the Phillies with the same sort of resigned reluctance that they took Belle and Ramirez signing with other teams, and CC, Lee and Martinez being traded. Instead Thome gets booed and more then likely will continue to be booed.

I just hope you truly understand, and appreciate, why.

[EdTarbusz]

I think anyone who didn't think the Indians were heading downward around 2002 wasn't paying much attention. I think most of these fans were the type who thought that the Indians started playing in 1994. This is (and was) the type of Indians fan that I have little regard for.

I still don't understand how people can take anything an athlete (or any public figure for that matter) says at face value, especially regarding a money matter. That is naive, and I have no sympathy for fans who feel like it's some kind of personal affront to them.

[ACrank]

at the time though i thought something completely different.

In some regards, at least for me, Thome was the straw that broke the camels back. I believed what he said to be true. I lost a lot of respect for him because of that.

When Martinez went on about how he want(ed) to stay in Cleveland my first response was that i wouldn't believe him until i saw the news report showing him signing the new contract.

My reaction was firmly because of what happened with Jim Thome.