1957 Best of Baseball Election

[jalbright]

This is our twenty-second election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT October 9, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1956 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=93419)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1957 are:


Galan , Augie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Moore , Terry
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tobin , Jim
Trouppe , Quincy


On the contributor side, we are adding Jorge Pasquel

[jalbright]

The 1956 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player…………… votes points
Waddell , Rube 9 65
Jackson , Joe 6 60
Johnson , HR 7 48
Herman, Billy 8 45
Foster, Willie 8 44
Keeler , Willie 7 43
Start , Joe 4 37
Traynor , Pie 7 33
Ruffing , Red 4 32
Hack, Stan 5 30
Mackey, Biz 4 25
McPhee , Bid 4 25
Flick , Elmer 4 22
Medwick, Joe 5 22
Coveleski , S 3 21
Groh , Heinie 3 18
Stovey , Harry 4 17
Ferrell, Wes 4 16
Grant , Frank 2 16
Terry , Bill 3 15
Thompson , S 2 14
Bennett , C 2 13
Gore , George 3 13
Klein, Chuck 2 13
Dean, Dizzy 2 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Carey , Max 1 9
Caruthers , B 1 9
Beckwith, John 3 8
Smith, Hilton 1 8
Berger , Wally 1 7
Maranville , R 1 7
Faber , Red 1 6
Hill , Pete………. 1 6
Sutton , Ezra 4 4
Glasscock , J 1 3
Jennings , H 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Sewell , Joe 1 2
Averill, Earl 1 1
Bridges, Tommy 1 1
Galvin , Pud 1 1
McGinnity , Joe 1 1


The 1956 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Contributors…. votes points
Posey, Cum 7 26
Stengel , Casey 6 19
Spink, JGT 5 14
Taylor , C. I. 3 12
Huggins , M 4 10
MacPhail , L 6 10
Selee , Frank 5 10
Pearce, Dickey 2 8
Chance , Frank 1 5
Doubleday , A 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Bolden, Ed 1 4
Wilkinson, JL 1 4
Connolly , T 2 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2
Conlon , C 1 1
Griffith , C 1 1


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players


Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Cool Papa Bell
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Hank Greenberg
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Ted Lyons
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Charlie Radbourn
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Zack Wheat
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young


Contributors


Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Alfred Spink
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Danning , Harry
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galan , Augie
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hack , Stan
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herman , Billy
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Mackey , Biz
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Frank
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Medwick , Joe
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moore , Terry
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Mungo , Van
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Buck
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Tobin , Jim
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Trouppe , Quincy
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Griffith , Clark
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
O'Neill, Steve
Osborn , Frank
Pasquel, Jorge
Pompez , Alex
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spink, J. G. Taylor
Stallings , George
Stengel , Casey
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Billy Herman
2. Red Ruffing
3. Rube Waddell
4. Willie Foster
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Stan Hack
7. Harry Stovey
8. John Beckwith
9. Joe Medwick
10. Joe McGinnity
11. Willie Keeler
12. Biz Mackey


Contributors
1. Cum Posey
2. Casey Stengel
3. J. G. Taylor Spink
4. Miller Huggins
5. Frank Selee

My contributor ballot remains the same, though as soon as I get a chance, I expect Larry MacPhail to join that ballot. On the player side, I'm adding Willie Keeler and Biz Mackey, who I'll say more about shortly.

[Domenic]

01. Joe Jackson
02. Heinie Groh
03. Rube Waddell
04. Billy Herman
05. Wally Berger
06. Harry Stovey
07. "Home Run" Johnson
08. Willie Foster
09. Stan Hack
10. Wes Ferrell
11. John Beckwith
12. Willie Keeler

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Casey Stengel
03. Cum Posey
04. Miller Huggins
05. J.G. Taylor Spink

[jalbright]

Biz Mackey ELECTED BBF HOF OCTOBER 2005

He has plenty of accolades to point to:
1) Named as one of the two first team catchers in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
2) came in second among catchers in a 1993 poll of members of the Negro League Museum;
3) finished 17th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries;
4) named the third best Negro League catcher of all time by Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract;
5) received mention as worthy of the Hall of Fame by 82% of Negro League veterans polled in Cool Papas and Double Duties;
6) received mention as worthy of the Hall of Fame by 100% of Negro League historians polled in Cool Papas and Double Duties;
7) Elected to Cooperstown in 2006.

The data provided by 2Chance on his performance against major leaguers shows Mackey getting 16 hits in 49 at bats with no homers for a .326 average.

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him as a career 301/359/393 hitter with 2495 career hits. There are only 5 or 6 major league players whose primary position was catcher who got over 2000 hits. I have to fudge, because some consider Joe Torre a catcher, but I don't since he spent so much time at other positions) and Ted Simmons, Fisk, Berra, Bench and Gary Carter. Of those catchers, only Torre averaged over .285 for his career, at .297. Personally, I think Torre is a HOFer, but as a manager, not a player.

The BTF guys project him at 290 career win shares, 105 in his best five consecutive years, and a top three of 25, 23 and 20. I'll place him ahead of Bill Freehan and Charlie Bennett in my catching queue at least.

According to William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties, pages 102-103:
Negro League veterans would say, "If you want to know what Biz Mackey was like [defensively] as a catcher, just watch Campanella. Campy is a clone of Mackey." . . .
Biz Mackey could play in any league. In 1924-1925 he played in the Cuban Winter Leagues and hit a solid .309. He also played at least 11 years in the Californiia Winter League, against white teams comprised of major league players, and batted .366.

From pages 502-503 in Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:
Biz Mackey was an incredibly talented receiver who remained cool under pressure, and his defensive skills were unsurpassed in the history of black baseball. Considered the master of defense, he possessed all the tools necessary behind the plate, but gained the most acclaim for his powerful and deadly accurate throwing arm. He could snap a throw to second from a squatting position and get it there harder and with more accuracy than most catchers can standing up. Mackey['s] . . . pegs to the keystone sack were frozen ropes . . . arriving on the bag feather soft. . . .

Mackey was intelligent, had a good baseball mind, and employed a studious approach to the game. The ballpark was his classroom, and inside baseball was his subject of expertise. He relied on meticulous observation and a retentive memory to match weaknesses of opposing hitters with the strengths of his pitching staff. An expert handler of pitchers, he also studied people and could direct the temperaments of his hurlers as well as he did their repertories.

He . . . utilized good-natured banter and irrelevant conversation to try to distract a hitter and break his concentration at the plate, and was a master at "stealing" strikes from umpires by framing . . . pitches. Pitchers recognized his generalship and liked to pitch to the big, husky receiver who . . . was surprisingly agile behind the plate. This . . . coupled with his soft hands, enabled the versatile athlete to play often at shortstop, third base, or in the outfield, and although lacking noteworthy range, he proved adept at any position. He was also a smart base runner and, although not fast, pilfered his share of bases.

In his prime, the switch-hitting Mackey was [a dangerous hitter] . . . as evidenced by a .423 average . . . [in] 1923. Biz followed this campaign with averages of .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400 and .376 for the years 1924-31.

[jalbright]

Wee Willie Keeler

He does well in the inks: 97th of all hitters for Black and 62nd of all hitters for Gray. In HOF standards, he's 79th among all hitters, again, clear HOF territory. In career win shares, he's 17th among the stacked RF field in the latest Bill James Historical Abstract, which is also good enough. His 25.41 win shares per 162 games is the middle of All-Star territory, which is a terrific thing to average over a career. His peak measures aren't quite what you'd want if you don't deal with the fact that three of his better years are 1895 to 1897, when his team played 129 or 130 games. Making a simple adjustment of a few win shares on those peaks, and his peak at least looks acceptable by HOF standards.

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Stan Hack
2. Joe Start
3. Red Ruffing
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Rabbit Maranville
6. Pie Traynor
7. Bid McPhee
8. Willie Keeler
9. Ezra Sutton
10. Pud Galvin
11. Earl Averill
12. Home Run Johnson

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. Dickey Pearce
4. Larry MacPhail
5. Casey Stengel

[Paul Wendt]

I cast a Contributors ballot very late in 1956. Let it stand without change for 1957.

Contributors
1 Cum Posey, Homestead Grays
2 JL Wilkinson, Kansas City "All Nations" and Monarchs
3 JG Taylor Spink, The Sporting News
4 Frank Selee
5 Clark Griffith


Let me repeat here, early in 1957, two questions that I asked of the group. Miller Huggins, Jake Ruppert, Casey Stengel, and Larry MacPhail are eligible now but there are some general themes at stake too.

1.
As for Huggins, McCarthy, Barrow, and Ruppert,
so for Stengel, MacPhail, and George Weiss (not yet eligible). I would like to know how people allocate credit for the Yankees success.

Notes.
- There was one prompt reply by Jim Albright (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1617502&postcount=38). Thanks, Jim.

- Regarding the Yankees that should be Lee MacPhail much more than his father Larry. They are both in Cooperstown.


2.
I know that the case for Larry MacPhail is based primarily on his work in Cincinnati and Brooklyn, re such business innovations as night games and live radio coverage.
--and I have expected that I will vote for Red Barber (not yet eligible), the primary radio announcer in Cincinnati and Brooklyn. How do people allocate credit to MacPhail and Barber for making radio broadcasts an institution?

[Paul Wendt]

On the contributor side, we are adding Jorge Pasquel

Is the new guy in anyone's queue?
I don't know much about it but my first thought is that he might have been influential and important if the Mexican League had been a success, but it was a failure and a short-lived one.

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Joe Start
2. Home Run Johnson
3. Rube Waddell
4. Red Ruffing
5. Joe Medwick
6. Billy Herman
7. Stan Hack
8. Willie Foster
9. Harry Stovey
10. Ezra Sutton
11. Joe Jackson
12. Willie Keeler


Contributors
1. J.G. Taylor Spink
2. Larry MacPhail
3. Frank Selee
4. Casey Stengel
5. J.L. Wilkinson

[jalbright]

Is the new guy in anyone's queue?
I don't know much about it but my first thought is that he might have been influential and important if the Mexican League had been a success, but it was a failure and a short-lived one.

I tend to agree, but Pasquel did draw votes in the BBF HOF project. I think he got as many as three in a single election, but that's off the cuff. That said, while the Mexican League did not become the MLB rival that Pasquel sought to achieve, the league itself has continued to the present day. In that sense, it wasn't short-lived at all.

[Tiboreau]

1. Elmer Flick
2. Willie Foster
3. Home Run Johnson
4. Red Ruffing
5. Pete Hill
6. Wes Ferrell
7. Heinie Groh
8. Hughie Jennings
9. Willie Keeler
10. George Gore
11. Bobby Wallace
12. Stan Coveleski

[jalbright]

I've seen several people vote for Stan Coveleski, but there's been little support for Burleigh Grimes. They were contemporaries, and here's some data I look at in ranking guys:


Pitcher.... career best 3 5consec bl ink gr ink HOF stds
Grimes..... 286 91 122 38 213 38
Coveleski... 245 90 142 22 193 38


For clarification the first three are win shares data. The only one Coveleski does better in is the 5 consecutive mark (plus a tie in the standards category). What I don't get is why Coveleski seems to be more highly regarded.

[jalbright]

This election could be a really competitive affair on the player side. Looking at the voting from last election, it would seem that one of last year's top six will separate from the pack, leaving the other five to fight for two spots. Right now, it appears those five will be bunched within eight points (four of them within five points, and three fighting for third within three points), so additions or changes in rankings could easily be decisive.

[Paul Wendt]

Pitcher.... career best 3 5consec bl ink gr ink HOF stds
Grimes..... 286 91 122 38 213 38
Coveleski... 245 90 142 22 193 38


For clarification the first three are win shares data. The only one Coveleski does better in is the 5 consecutive mark (plus a tie in the standards category). What I don't get is why Coveleski seems to be more highly regarded.
I suppose that some people favor the American League of their time, at least Coveleski's peak time 1917-21, and no one favors the National League.

Prorating the short 1918 and 1919 seasons adds about 8 win shares to the 3- and 5-year peak measures for Coveleski, and to his career total of course. For Grimes it's about 5 win shares for his career total. I don't know whether +4.5 ws in 1918 would revise his peak ratings.

Coveleski pitched better than Grimes in the World Series and his sterling 1920 performance adds to his peak value; Grimes was a wily old codger when he helped beat the A's in 1931.

According to DERA analysis they both played with slightly below average team defense. So the difference between them by DERA, Coveleski 3.52 and Grimes 4.41, is about the same as that by ERA+ at 127 and 107. According to the same analysis, the greater playing time for Grimes is equivalent to about 1100 innings at 200 runs worse than league average.

Burleigh Grimes is not a contender for the Hall of Merit, although he enjoys significant support. He was 20th among the runners up and ninth among pitchers in the 2009 election; that implies HOM ranking just outside 70 among all pitchers. Meanwhile Morde Brown, Coveleski, McGinnity, Waddell, and Rube Foster finished very close in ranks 10 to 14 among pitchers with careers centered 1893 to 1923; that suggests HOM ranking inside 50 for the quintet. (See the Hall of Merit Archives (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/ranking_the_hall_of_merit_pitchers_1893_1923_discu ssion/), 2009 March and April, three threads)

Bill James doesn't endorse that grouping but he does rank Coveleski above Grimes at ranks 58 and 62 among major league pitchers 1876-1999.

[Tiboreau]

pitcher warp3 rt dWAR rt WAR rt warp3 dWAR WAR warp3 dWAR WAR
Coveleski 69.7 6.1 60.7 5.3 48.5 4.2 41.9 36.9 32.4 9.9 9.8 8.5 8.2 7.6 7.5 7.6 6.9 6.2
Grimes 67.3 4.2 59.3 3.7 42.8 2.7 37 31.8 28.9 8.4 8.4 8 7.3 7.2 7 6.8 6.5 6.3

FWIW: warp3 is, of course, Baseball Prospectus (http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/); dWAR is Joe Dimino's work from the Hall of Merit (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/the_baseball_hall_of_merits_important_links/) (which, unfortunately, is not yet available on the web, although one can sift through the plethora of posts on this (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/pitchers_for_the_hall_of_merit/) page for some info); and this particular "WAR" is a reference to Sean Smith's research (http://baseballprojection.com/war/playerindex.htm) (although it is, of course, based on pre-retrosheet data, as opposed to his TZ stuff). The first 6 columns are each player's career numbers according to each comprehensive metric & their rate (per 250 IP); the next 3 columns are each player's top 5 non-consecutive seasons added together; and the last 9 columns are the two players' top 3 seasons per comprehensive metric, listed individually.

As I've said before, I'm not really a fan of Win Shares, particularly when comparing players from hitting-first positions v. fielding-first positions, since it underrates the latter, or when comparing pitchers from the same era, let along cross-era comparisons. And I must admit that it's been a long time since I've looked at Black & Grey Ink. And I should also add that I'm by no means a sabermetrician or a comprehensive metrics expert, and realize that one of these stats is, essentially, black boxed, and the nuts & bolts of the other two aren't easily found (although the authors would probably be willing to describe them via e-mail or some such).

That all being said, all three metrics pretty much agree--and therefore disagree with WS--that despite Grimes' 1000+ IP advantage the years of generally low peak, long career performance fall below Stan Coveleski's peak & career value after factoring Replacement Level and/or other factors that others probably know better than I. So, I'm more willing to trust the three later metrics that are all in agreement than the earliest, which doesn't include, AFAICT, RL (AKA Loss Shares) or properly weights defense.

[Paul Wendt]

Part of my reply refers to the analysis by Clay Davenport, published in the "DT cards" (player pages) at BaseballProspectus. This quotation includes one numerical correction.
According to DERA analysis they both played with slightly below average team defense. So the difference between them by DERA, Coveleski 3.52 and Grimes 4.32 [corrected], is about the same as that by ERA+ at 127 and 107.
DERA is defense, league, and home ballpark-adjusted ERA, expressed on a scale where 4.50 is average. I should have stated DERA+ also, the equivalent to DERA expressed as an index like ERA+.

career DERA+
128 Coveleski
104 Grimes

The difference is a little bigger than the big difference estimated by ERA+, 127 and 107.
According to the same analysis, the greater pitching time [corrected] for Grimes is equivalent to about 1100 innings at 200 runs worse than league average.
... more precisely, 1150 innings at DERA 6.15 or DERA+ 73.

According to the more familiar sabrmetrics, the difference in pitching time is equivalent to about 1100 innings at ERA+ 74.

That does not account for Grimes' much superior batting. Here are my round estimates where * indicates the incorporation of batting.

DERA* ERA*
124 ; 123 Coveleski
107 ; 110 Grimes

[dgarza]

Players

1. Joe Medwick
2. Sam Thompson
3. Joe Jackson
4. Willie Keeler
5. Chuck Klein
6. Harry Stovey
7. Bill Terry
8. Billy Herman
9. Hugh Duffy
10. Pud Galvin
11. Jim McCormick
12. Elmer Flick


Contributors

1. Casey Stengel
2. Abner Doubleday
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Charles Conlon
5. Miller Huggins

[leecemark]

Players
1) Home Run Johnson
2) Billy Herman
3) Willie Foster
4) Rube Waddell
5) Willie Keeler
6) Charlie Bennett
7) Henie Groh
8) Joe Medwick
9) Pie Traynor
10) Bid McPhee
11) Rabbit Maranville
12) Stan Coveleski

[PVNICK]

1. Pie Traynor
2. Bob Caruthers
3. Willie Keeler
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Bill Terry
6. Joe Jackson
7. Rube Waddell
8. Biz Mackey
9. Elmer Flick
10. Earl Averill
11. Charlie Bennett
12. Willie Foster

1. Selee
2. Huggins
3. O.P. Caylor
4. McPhail
5. Clark Griffith

[Freakshow]

1 Joe Jackson
2 Joe Start
3 Bid McPhee
4 Billy Herman
5 Red Faber
6 Wes Ferrell
7 Elmer Flick
8 George Gore
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Frank Grant
11 Willie Foster
12 Red Ruffing

[J W]

Players

1. Joe Jackson
2. Biz Mackey
3. Frank Grant
4. Rube Waddell
5. Stan Coveleski
6. Stan Hack
7. Billy Herman
8. Pie Traynor
9. Joe Sewell
10. Joe Medwick
11. John Beckwith
12. Joe McGinnity

Contributors

1. Ed Bolden
2. Miller Huggins
3. Tom Connolly
4. Frank Selee
5. Cum Posey

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Willie Foster
2. Biz Mackey
3. Rube Waddell
4. Hilton Smith
5. Billy Herman
6. Elmer Flick
7. Home Run Johnson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Frank Grant
10. John Beckwith
11. Willie Keeler
12. Ezra Sutton

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Cum Posey
3. Casey Stengel
4. Larry MacPhail
5. J.L. Wilkinson

[jalbright]

We have a quorum on the player side and are one shy on the contributor side.

[jalbright]

To give this thread a bit of a bump, I'll list next year's new eligibles.

On the contributor side, we'll add a fine manager candidate in Billy Southworth. He'll eventually get my vote, but he won't jump right onto my ballot.

On the player side, we'll add one sure-fire candidate (Mize), and a Negro League HOFer who should at least eventually contend for induction (Dandridge). The full list:


Clarkson , Bus
Cooper , Mort
Dandridge , Ray
Henrich , Tommy
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Mize , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
York , Rudy

[jaxxr]

1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 Willie Keeler
4 Bid McPhee
5 Rube Waddell
6 Chuck Klien
7 Bill Terry
8 Dizzy Dean
9 Pie Traynor
10 Willie Foster
11 Elmer Flick
12 Stan Coveleski

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Willie Keeler
2. Max Carey
3. Stan Coveleski
4. Rube Waddell
5. Pie Traynor
6. Sam Thompson
7. Biz Mackey
8. Grant Johnson
9. Willie Foster
10. Edd Roush
11. Heinie Groh
12. Joe Medwick

Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Casey Stengel
3. Cum Posey
4. Tom Connolly
5. Frank Selee

[Paul Wendt]

1. Willie Keeler
2. Max Carey
3. Stan Coveleski
4. Rube Waddell
5. Pie Traynor
6. Sam Thompson
7. Biz Mackey
8. Grant Johnson
9. Willie Foster
10. Edd Roush
11. Ross Barnes
12. Heinie Groh
CCN,
Do you support Ross Barnes at long last? We elected him ten years ago.

[Paul Wendt]

Biz Mackey ELECTED BBF HOF OCTOBER 2005
...

The Baseball Think Factory guys project him as a career 301/359/393 hitter with 2495 career hits. There are only 5 or 6 major league players whose primary position was catcher who got over 2000 hits. I have to fudge, because some consider Joe Torre a catcher, but I don't since he spent so much time at other positions) and Ted Simmons, Fisk, Berra, Bench and Gary Carter. Of those catchers, only Torre averaged over .285 for his career, at .297. Personally, I think Torre is a HOFer, but as a manager, not a player.

The BTF guys project him at 290 career win shares, 105 in his best five consecutive years, and a top three of 25, 23 and 20. I'll place him ahead of Bill Freehan and Charlie Bennett in my catching queue at least.
Now that you mention BTF guys, the Hall of Merit has elected Mackey and/but ranked him behind Bennett, McVey, Bresnahan, and Trouppe among catchers currently on the board here. They are #15, 16, 18, 19 and 20 (Mackey) among all catchers retired from major league play before 2003.
(Ranking the Hall of Merit Catchers -- Discussion (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/ranking_the_hall_of_merit_catchers_discussion/))

Bresnahan and Mackey are in Cooperstown. The Hall of Merit has elected seven who are not in: White, Simmons, Torre, Bennett, McVey, Freehan, and Trouppe.

[Captain Cold Nose]

CCN,
Do you support Ross Barnes at long last? We elected him ten years ago.

I live in Ohio.

I'll fix it.

[jalbright]

We have a quorum on both sides of the ballot.

[jalbright]

As I write, everybody who voted last election has voted in this one. However, two of our voters voted in both elections last time, and have only voted in one this time. Leecemark hasn't submitted a contributor ballot yet, and Paul Wendt hasn't submitted a player ballot yet. Both races are close, and their votes could change the outcome, as could new votes. As always, I welcome new participants, and will follow up on the two ballots mentioned above if I don't see them by Monday morning. The election will run until 11:59:59 PM EDT Friday night.

[leecemark]

1) Dickey Pearce
2) Cum Posey
3) JGT Spink
4) CI Taylor
5) Larry McPhail

[AstrosFan]

Players

1. Max Carey
2. Shoeless Joe Jackson
3. John Beckwith
4. Harry Stovey
5. Elmer Flick
6. Willie Foster
7. Home Run Johnson
8. Wee Willie Keeler
9. Hugh Duffy
10. Rube Waddell
11. Biz Mackey
12. Bill Terry


Contributors

1. J. G. Taylor Spink
2. Cum Posey
3. Casey Stengel
4. Larry MacPhail
5. Frank Selee

[Domenic]

Mize will likely top my ballot for 1958, and Dandridge is likely to make it, as well, though I'll have to see the results for this election to get a better grasp on his prospective placement.

Tetsuharu Kawakami is of interest to me, as well, though I'm admittedly lacking knowledge in the Japanese League's history. Suffice it to say, though, that I've already started digging.

[jaxxr]

In case any might possibly be interested,

there are a couple current threads in the History section, regarding potential HOF candidate Addie Joss, due likely to the anniversary of his perfect game tossed in the heart of a late season pennant race.

Some fine old pictures, and interesting anecdotes about the pitcher with the very best WHIP ever, and the second lowest ERA of all time.

[Paul Wendt]

Charlie Bennett returns and Stan Coveleski follows him. Rube Waddell's election is imminent and not clearly premature, so I acknowledge that in the twelve hole. Expect the same for Willie Keeler next year.

1 Grant Johnson
2 George Gore
3 Joe Start
4 Elmer Flick
5 Bid McPhee
6 Heinie Groh
7 Jack Glasscock
8 Billy Herman
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Charlie Bennett
11 Stan Coveleski
12 Rube Waddell

[jalbright]

About 6 3/4 hours left in this election as I post this--and places two through six are separated by a mere nine points on the player ballot.

[Paul Wendt]

If I count correctly,
eleven different players and nine different contributors have at least one "number one" vote!
on merely 15 and 12 ballots.

[jalbright]

The Hall of Merit has elected seven who are not in: White, Simmons, Torre, Bennett, McVey, Freehan, and Trouppe.

Make that six--we've got Deacon White. Also, Torre, Simmons and Freehan aren't yet eligible, along with the likes of Bench, Fisk, G. Carter and Berra.

[Paul Wendt]

Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
> The Hall of Merit has elected seven who are not in:
> White, Simmons, Torre, Bennett, McVey, Freehan, and Trouppe.

Make that six--we've got Deacon White. Also, Torre, Simmons and Freehan aren't yet eligible, along with the likes of Bench, Fisk, G. Carter and Berra.
out of context! Let me quote the entire paragraph
> Bresnahan and Mackey are in Cooperstown.
> The Hall of Merit has elected seven [catchers] who are not in:
> White, Simmons, Torre, Bennett, McVey, Freehan, and Trouppe.

[jalbright]

Not meant to be quoting out of context, Paul. Frankly, now that I see your repost, I get what you were driving at, but with all due respect, the point wasn't made as clearly as it could have been. I could have read a little better, too, but I'm not always at my best when I get to look at BBF.

[jalbright]

We had 15 player ballots cast, and 12 contributor ones. On the player side, we inducted Joe Jackson, Grant "Home Run" Johnson, and Rube Waddell. The complete results follow:


Player……….. votes pts
Waddell , Rube 11 85
Jackson , Joe 8 78
Johnson , HR 10 77
Herman, Billy 9 72
Foster, Willie 11 69
Keeler , Willie 12 69
Flick , Elmer 8 49
Traynor , Pie 7 45
Start , Joe 4 44
Ruffing , Red 5 40
Hack, Stan 5 36
Mackey, Biz 6 36
McPhee , Bid 5 36
Medwick, Joe 6 33
Stovey , Harry 5 33
Coveleski , S 7 32
Groh , Heinie 5 32
Carey , Max 2 23
Beckwith, John 5 22
Bennett , C 4 21
Terry , Bill 4 21
Gore , George 3 19
Thompson , S 2 18
Ferrell, Wes 3 17
Grant , Frank 3 17
Sutton , Ezra 5 16
Klein, Chuck 2 15
Caruthers , B 1 11
Joss , Addie 1 11
Maranville , R 2 10
Smith, Hilton 1 9
Berger , Wally 1 8
Duffy , Hugh 2 8
Faber , Red 1 8
Hill , Pete……. 1 8
Galvin , Pud 2 6
Glasscock , J 1 6
Averill, Earl 2 5
Dean, Dizzy 1 5
Jennings , H 1 5
McGinnity , J 2 4
Sewell , Joe 1 4
Roush , Edd 1 3
McCormick , J 1 2
Wallace , B 1 2


On the contributor side, we inducted Cum Posey. The complete results follow:


Contributor…….. votes pts
Posey, Cum 9 33
Stengel , Casey 8 26
Spink, JGT 6 20
MacPhail , La 7 16
Selee , Frank 7 15
Huggins , M 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 3 12
Pearce, Dickey 2 8
Wilkinson, JL 3 6
Bolden, Ed 1 5
Chance , Frank 1 5
Connolly , Tom 2 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Doubleday , A 1 4
Caylor , O. P. 1 3
Conlon , C 1 2
Griffith , C 2 2