What's the status of "rotational" v "linear"

[brett]

I read about the "move" of hitters to rotational mechanics in the 90s. Clearly you could see the rotational mechanics of Sosa and McGwire,and later Bonds, and really most hitter.

But I have been confused by this. I read one article that claimed that George Brett used linear mechanics, but he really looked like the ultimate rotational hitter to me, at least by about 1983, and I read Barry Bonds batting coach at one point claimed that Bonds swing was modelled off of Brett's as closely as possible.

I mean there are a few slap hitters like Boggs, and Ichiro and Gwynn and Carew who just toss the bat out there, but doesn't everyone use rotational mechanics?

Someone want to show me a pic series, or name hitters or video clips?

[virg]

I read about the "move" of hitters to rotational mechanics in the 90s. Clearly you could see the rotational mechanics of Sosa and McGwire,and later Bonds, and really most hitter.

But I have been confused by this. I read one article that claimed that George Brett used linear mechanics, but he really looked like the ultimate rotational hitter to me, at least by about 1983, and I read Barry Bonds batting coach at one point claimed that Bonds swing was modelled off of Brett's as closely as possible.

I mean there are a few slap hitters like Boggs, and Ichiro and Gwynn and Carew who just toss the bat out there, but doesn't everyone use rotational mechanics?

Someone want to show me a pic series, or name hitters or video clips?

Brett, same page here. I suggest the 'move of hitters to rotational...' is part of a sales pitch intended by the seller to invent a trend to be in the forefront-of. Would it be possible to divide and separate hitters into classes or categories according to key traits?

Would the degree of weight-shift be the key trait and controlling factor? The less weight shift; the more rotational. Is weightshift the one linear move a human frame makes? Weightshift [1]steepens the angle of the frontside to the ground as [2]it moves weight toward the front foot and [3] alters available strength for hip pivot. [4] those three changes (and maybe others) alter possibilities upstairs. What then is my conclusion?.. just hit the xxx outa the ball! Smooth your own wrinkles and do it.

Back now to that pitch about the "move to rotational in the 90s". All that happened then was a sales pitch with its own shiny new handle; "rotational".
WHY? because in ancient times (I am a member) the terms used were: back-leg hitter or front-leg hitter. Hip-rotational, or weight-shift. But they all make circular contact.

In the "hip" breed, hips lead hands. As weight move past center it dampens the hips' ability to pivot and to lead the hands. In a frontleg hitter with a steep VERtical frontside angle at contact the hands lead and the hips trail-- actually only flow with the follow-through.

[azmatsfan]

I think people get too caught up in the phrases "rotational" and "linear". There are distinct differences in the two styles, but being a linear hitter doesn't mean there is no rotation at all. It can be a little misleading. In my mind the biggest difference is that with a rotational swing the "hips lead the way" (as Ted Williams said) and the core powers the swing. Hitters adjust to the pitch by tilting. The linear swing is focused on the hands. Take the hands to the ball and keep the bat in the zone as long as possible. I like Virg's descriptions. Perhaps "hips" vs "hands" is a better description of the 2 styles.

[Jake Patterson]

I think people get too caught up in the phrases "rotational" and "linear". There are distinct differences in the two styles, but being a linear hitter doesn't mean there is no rotation at all. It can be a little misleading. In my mind the biggest difference is that with a rotational swing the "hips lead the way" (as Ted Williams said) and the core powers the swing. Hitters adjust to the pitch by tilting. The linear swing is focused on the hands. Take the hands to the ball and keep the bat in the zone as long as possible. I like Virg's descriptions. Perhaps "hips" vs "hands" is a better description of the 2 styles.

There are two ways in which to use these terms. The first is to scientifically describe an action, which at best is problematic as neither are accurate.

The second is to describe hitting philosophies and how they have changed. The latter I believe to be more applicable.

[virg]

There are two ways in which to use these terms. The first is to scientifically describe an action, which at best is problematic as neither are accurate.

The second is to describe hitting philosophies and how they have changed. The latter I believe to be more applicable.

Problematic is right, Jake. Start with "science".Two engineers at Argonne National Labs published a book claiming centrifugal force produced in the turn (read 'spin') of a rotational swing exerts "gyroscopic stability". The stance described (all butt/no lean) would cause leg cramps plus a bucket-foot stride. If engineers makes it Science; well y'gotta watch out for y'self, and doesn't everybody want into the act!

What's a hitting philosophy but so much phobia, mania, compulsion, and whim? A "hitting philosophy" means batting preferences dressed up in
finer words. "Trend" describes batting changes a little better. It's only a sweaty, dusty, dirty, kids' game after all.

[Jake Patterson]

Problematic is right, Jake. Start with "science".Two engineers at Argonne National Labs published a book claiming centrifugal force produced in the turn (read 'spin') of a rotational swing exerts "gyroscopic stability". The stance described (all butt/no lean) would cause leg cramps plus a bucket-foot stride. If engineers makes it Science; well y'gotta watch out for y'self, and doesn't everybody want into the act!

What's a hitting philosophy but so much phobia, mania, compulsion, and whim? A "hitting philosophy" means batting preferences dressed up in
finer words. "Trend" describes batting changes a little better. It's only a sweaty, dusty, dirty, kids' game after all.

"Trend" is a term I would use to indicate a direction.

A "philosophy" here seems to have a much more.... emotional connotation to it than you would see in the rest of the game... Mainly, because of the inability to demonstrate using words... but also because of the need by some to disprove others. I would offer that those who truly study the swing are not that far apart when compared against those who are starting their journey. We argue here over the last few percent.

[virg]

"Trend" is a term I would use to indicate a direction.

A "philosophy" here seems to have a much more.... emotional connotation to it than you would see in the rest of the game... Mainly, because of the inability to demonstrate using words... but also because of the need by some to disprove others. I would offer that those who truly study the swing are not that far apart when compared against those who are starting their journey. We argue here over the last few percent.

Wouldn't "emotional" qualify under "phobia, mania, compulsion, or whim"?
Please Jake, help me figure out how to talk my way over to First.

[Jake Patterson]

Wouldn't "emotional" qualify under "phobia, mania, compulsion, or whim"?
Please Jake, help me figure out how to talk my way over to First.I am uncertain what you're asking here. I think I am agreeing with you, but am adding that it seems to be MORE emotional here than what you would find on the field.

[virg]

I am uncertain what you're asking here. I think I am agreeing with you, but am adding that it seems to be MORE emotional here than what you would find on the field.

On the field they always shot me down even quicker than around here. Sorry, guess I arrived with a complex.

[Jake Patterson]

On the field they always shot me down even quicker than around here. Sorry, guess I arrived with a complex.Hmmm... I find gurus and guru supporters here less flexible than those on the field and are more willing to go to whatever lengths they need to prove others wrong. On the field it's whatever works.

I try not to get too tied up in my own shorts here... I know what worked for me over the years on the field and feel good with what I was able to get from my players. Having players coming back years later telling me the same thing is all the verification I ever needed.

[virg]

Hmmm... I find gurus and guru supporters here less flexible than those on the field and are more willing to go to whatever lengths they need to prove others wrong. On the field it's whatever works.

I try not to get too tied up in my own shorts here... I know what worked for me over the years on the field and feel good with what I was able to get from my players. Having players coming back years later telling me the same thing is all the verification I ever needed.

One guy who couldn't even touch it by accident assured us all "it's all eye-hand coordination", then wouldn't begin to define the term.

[calgofo]

I read about the "move" of hitters to rotational mechanics in the 90s. Clearly you could see the rotational mechanics of Sosa and McGwire,and later Bonds, and really most hitter.

But I have been confused by this. I read one article that claimed that George Brett used linear mechanics, but he really looked like the ultimate rotational hitter to me, at least by about 1983, and I read Barry Bonds batting coach at one point claimed that Bonds swing was modelled off of Brett's as closely as possible.

I mean there are a few slap hitters like Boggs, and Ichiro and Gwynn and Carew who just toss the bat out there, but doesn't everyone use rotational mechanics?

Someone want to show me a pic series, or name hitters or video clips?


And, as you can clearly see by now, the people here (me included) can't give you a good definition either.

[azmatsfan]

Does anyone know who first coined the phrases "rotational" and "linear" swings? :shrug:

[Jake Patterson]

Does anyone know who first coined the phrases "rotational" and "linear" swings? :shrug: Mankin????

[R00STER]

Wow, Mankin, really? I'm new to all this but I didn't realize he was instrumental in this whole rotational "movement"

[Jake Patterson]

Wow, Mankin, really? I'm new to all this but I didn't realize he was instrumental in this whole rotational "movement"
Who knows what the real answer is. I am certain the term has been used in baseball for a very long time. I think I found it first on the E-world on Jack's site.

I believe this goes back a few years.. http://www.batspeed.com/research.html

Some of his discussion go back 9-10 years.

[virg]

Who knows what the real answer is. I am certain the term has been used in baseball for a very long time. I think I found it first on the E-world on Jack's site.

I believe this goes back a few years.. http://www.batspeed.com/research.html
Some of his discussion go back 9-10 years.

More like 12 years ago the multitudes spilled out of there, ganged-up and swarmed over the web noisy as they could get away with. I saw it directly on two sites, where Web-wide mayhem was mentioned in posts. They'd pointedly drive-off anyone they couldn't convert and anyone disgusted enough by the fervid commotion to quit. They are still at it, for various 'Causes' old and new.

[Chris O'Leary]

Does anyone know who first coined the phrases "rotational" and "linear" swings? :shrug:

I think it was Epstein, but Ted Williams didn't use the term.

[virg]

I think it was Epstein, but Ted Williams didn't use the term.

I heard the term "hip-rotational" in the mid-eighties from a LL coach from Kokomo. First heard of linear in a post on HFE by a mankin invader.

[R00STER]

I thought Epstein was always credited with it myself.

[dominik]

I think it was Epstein, but Ted Williams didn't use the term.

Mankin was also very early with that term. It was either epstein or mankin.

Mankin was the guy who first stated that the hand path was circular(the overhead of rose).

[virg]

Mankin was also very early with that term. It was either epstein or mankin.

Mankin was the guy who first stated that the hand path was circular(the overhead of rose).

He invented an instruction "crisis" for which he had an "explanation" (linear/circular handpath) and a "solution" (rotational) ready for sale. His goons took it and ran with it from there.

[Mark H]

He invented an instruction "crisis" for which he had an "explanation" (linear/circular handpath) and a "solution" (rotational) ready for sale. His goons took it and ran with it from there.

First, Jack Mankin has always been a gentleman to my knowledge. I find it unfair to associate goons with him. Second, many were, and apparently still are, teaching this kind of thing. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html . At the time, he was a bit of a pioneer.

[Mark H]

Uh Oh. Pull out your credit cards. The cement trowel boys have added a noisemaker to their gadget. http://www.quickhands.net/quickhands.html

[virg]

First, Jack Mankin has always been a gentleman to my knowledge. I find it unfair to associate goons with him. Second, many were, and apparently still are, teaching this kind of thing. http://www.quickhands.net/pics.html . At the time, he was a bit of a pioneer.

Yes; a gentleman he was and must still be. All he did was sit back and watch, and with never whisper of acknowledgment of the roughhousing on his behalf. He was getting what he wanted, and business is business after all.

You comment in response to my own;
"He invented an instruction "crisis" for which he had an "explanation" (linear/circular handpath) and a "solution" (rotational) ready for sale. His goons took it and ran with it from there."
That's about the "movement he (pioneered)" and how it came about, not about his personality. He steered clear while rabid partisans did their stuff.

I think that's what I said going in.

[Mark H]

I think to blame Jack for the Toms of the world is a stretch.

[virg]

I think to blame Jack for the Toms of the world is a stretch.

I think so too. But I think I blamed the Toms of the world for Jack.