1956 Best of Baseball Election

[jalbright]

This is our twenty-first election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT September 25, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1955 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=93128)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1955 are:



Danning , Harry
Greenberg , Hank
McCormick , Frank
Medwick , Joe
Mungo , Van
O'Neill , Buck


On the contributor side, we are adding Steve O'Neill

[jalbright]

The 1955 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:



Player……. votes points
Radbourn , C 9 65
Jackson , Joe 6 63
Lyons , Ted 8 63
Waddell , Rube 9 55
Keeler , Willie 6 43
Johnson , HR 6 40
Foster, Willie 7 38
Start , Joe 4 35
Herman, Billy 5 29
Ruffing , Red 4 29
Traynor , Pie 7 28
McPhee , Bid 4 23
Coveleski , S 3 19
Flick , Elmer 3 19
Mackey, Biz 3 19
Groh , Heinie 3 18
Terry , Bill 3 17
Klein, Chuck 2 16
Dean, Dizzy 3 15
Hack, Stan 4 15
Stovey , Harry 4 15
Grant , Frank 2 14
Thompson , S 2 14
Bennett , C 2 12
Ferrell, Wes 3 12
Gore , George 3 12
Sutton , Ezra 2 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Caruthers , B 1 9
Carey , Max 1 7
Maranville , R 1 7
Smith, Hilton 1 7
Berger , Wally 1 6
Hill , Pete…….. 1 6
Faber , Red 1 5
Beckwith, John 3 3
Glasscock , J 1 3
Jennings , H 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Averill, Earl 1 1
Galvin , Pud 1 1
Sewell , Joe 1 1


The 1955 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:



Contributor……. votes points
Posey, Cum 7 23
Spink, Alfred 6 18
Stengel , Casey 6 16
Spink, JGT 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 3 11
Huggins , M 4 9
Selee , Frank 4 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 7
MacPhail , L 2 6
Doubleday , A 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Bolden, Ed 1 4
Chance , Frank 1 4
Connolly , Tom 2 3
Wilkinson, JL 1 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players



Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Cool Papa Bell
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Jim O'Rourke
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Zack Wheat
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young


Contributors


Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:



Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Danning , Harry
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Greenberg , Hank
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hack , Stan
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herman , Billy
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Frank
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Medwick , Joe
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Mungo , Van
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Buck
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:



Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Griffith , Clark
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
O'Neill, Steve
Osborn , Frank
Pompez , Alex
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spink, Alfred
Spink, J. G. Taylor
Stallings , George
Stengel , Casey
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Hank Greenberg
2. Billy Herman
3. Ted Lyons
4. Red Ruffing
5. Rube Waddell
6. Willie Foster
7. Home Run Johnson
8. Stan Hack
9. Harry Stovey
10. John Beckwith
11. Joe Medwick
12. Joe McGinnity


Contributors
1. Cum Posey
2. Casey Stengel
3. J. G. Taylor Spink
4. Miller Huggins
5. Frank Selee

Hank Greenberg goes to the top of my ballot, and Joe Medwick slips under a guy I don't think he could outhit, John Beckwith. Joe McGinnity rejoins my ballot after a hiatus. On the contributor side, there are several intriguing candidates (C. I. Taylor and Larry MacPhail are high on my list, and get more support than the rest not on my ballot) and Frank Selee is as well supported as anyone not on my ballot that I like, so I'm going with him this election.

[Domenic]

01. Hank Greenberg
02. Joe Jackson
03. Heinie Groh
04. Rube Waddell
05. Billy Herman
06. Wally Berger
07. Harry Stovey
08. Willie Foster
09. Stan Hack
10. Wes Ferrell
11. John Beckwith
12. Tommy Bridges

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Casey Stengel
03. Cum Posey
04. Miller Huggins
05. J.G. Taylor Spink

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Hank Greenberg
2. Stan Hack
3. Joe Start
4. Red Ruffing
5. Charlie Bennett
6. Rabbit Maranville
7. Pie Traynor
8. Ted Lyons
9. Bid McPhee
10. Willie Keeler
11. Charlie Radbourne
12. Ezra Sutton

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. Dickey Pearce
4. Alfred Spink
5. Larry MacPhail

Please note that Ezra Sutton is now in slot #12 and Stan Hack is in slot #2 (I accidentally overlooked Hack the past few elections).

[Paul Wendt]

So I am suddenly the "best friend" of Ezra Sutton.

jjpm,
Should discovering the eligibility of Stan Hack drop Sutton from #2 to #12? --behind ten others including 3b Pie Traynor.
Is this a reevaluation of Sutton, or of all thirdbasemen, prompted by the recent discussion of Bob Elliott?

[jalbright]

I've taken the status of how a candidate is doing in the voting by other voters into account in my own voting, and, let's be honest, Ezra Sutton wouldn't be elected this year if jjpm had him #1. He was in a several way tie for 27th last time. Subtract the three we elected from that and add at least Greenberg and probably Medwick, and he moves up to 25th or 26th. He's not primed for the kind of jump in the standings he'd need to get elected this time around.

[Tiboreau]

1. Hank Greenberg
2. Ted Lyons
3. Elmer Flick
4. Willie Foster
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Red Ruffing
7. Pete Hill
8. Wes Ferrell
9. Heinie Groh
10. Hughie Jennings
11. Willie Keeler
12. George Gore

[jjpm74]

So I am suddenly the "best friend" of Ezra Sutton.

jjpm,
Should discovering the eligibility of Stan Hack drop Sutton from #2 to #12? --behind ten others including 3b Pie Traynor.
Is this a reevaluation of Sutton, or of all thirdbasemen, prompted by the recent discussion of Bob Elliott?

Closer evaluation of the position in the neighboring project revealed that both Traynor and Hack are significantly stronger candidates than Sutton. However, Sutton's pre-1871 play + some credit for being a star in the 1st generation of baseball gives him the boost needed to keep him on my ballot.

[leecemark]

1) Charlie Radbourne
2) Hank Greenberg
3) Rube Waddell
4) Ted Lyons
5) Dizzy Dean
6) Willie Foster
7) Home Run Johnson
8) Charlie Bennett
9) Billy Herman
10) Wes Ferrell
11) Pie Traynor
12) Ducky Medwick

--The bottom of this ballot is pretty murkey. Sutton and Hack may well be more deserving than Traynor. Maranville and Start may be better than several bottom of ballot guys. There may be some others as or more deserving as well. In a large pool with many close calls support level is going to be a factor for me in making them.

1) Dickey Pearce
2) Cum Posey
3) JGT Spink
4) CI Taylor
5) Larry McPhail

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Hank Greenberg
2. Willie Foster
3. Old Hoss Radbourn
4. Biz Mackey
5. Hilton Smith
6. Frank Grant
7. Home Run Johnson
8. Rube Waddell
9. Pie Traynor
10. John Beckwith
11. Willie Keeler
12. Ted Lyons

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Casey Stengel
5. Larry MacPhail

[Paul Wendt]

I've taken the status of how a candidate is doing in the voting by other voters into account in my own voting,
Oh.
Before this morning, as far as I know, you've endorsed this for Contributors only.
>>
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
<<

[jalbright]

Paul,

The language on the holdover leaders has been repeated since I started doing it, which I think was 1937. It was meant to apply to both elections. Had I wanted that statement to apply to only one election, it would have behooved me to be specific, no? I openly stated I sent some guys off my ballot in part due to the fact they weren't drawing support.

I am far more guided by how candidates are doing with others on the Contributor side, because the Contributors ballot places us in the unenviable position of comparing apples to oranges to bananas and so forth. Comparisons within a category might be manageable, but going across those boundaries make it far more difficult. When it comes to players, it's a lot more similar base for comparisons. However, I'm cognizant of how the support is going in the player election. I mean, if I see two guys as a close call, I'll go for the one who seems to have the better shot at being elected sooner

[PVNICK]

1. Hank Greenberg
2. Hoss Radbourne
3. Pie Traynor
4. Bob Caruthers
5. Willie Keeler
6. Stan Coveleski
7. Bill Terry
8. Joe Jackson
9. Rube Waddell
10. Biz Mackey
11. Elmer Flick
12. Earl Averill

1. Albert Spink
2. Selee
3. Huggins
4. O.P. Caylor
5. McPhail

McPhail comes in based on last years posts. Biz Mackey and Elmer Flick join Greenberg.

[Freakshow]

1 Hank Greenberg
2 Joe Jackson
3 Ted Lyons
4 Joe Start
5 Bid McPhee
6 Billy Herman
7 Red Faber
8 Wes Ferrell
9 Elmer Flick
10 George Gore
11 Charley Radbourn
12 Ezra Sutton

[dgarza]

Players

1. Joe Medwick
2. Hank Greenberg
3. Sam Thompson
4. Joe Jackson
5. Willie Keeler
6. Chuck Klein
7. Charley Radbourn
8. Harry Stovey
9. Bill Terry
10. Billy Herman
11. Hugh Duffy
12. Pud Galvin


Contributors

1. Abner Doubleday
2. Casey Stengel
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Al Spink
5. Charles Conlan

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Hank Greenberg
2. Willie Keeler
3. Charles Radbourne
4. Max Carey
5. Ted Lyons
6. Stan Coveleski
7. Rube Waddell
8. Pie Traynor
9. Sam Thompson
10. Biz Mackey
11. Grant Johnson
12. Willie Foster

Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Casey Stengel
3. Alfred Spink
4. Cum Posey
5. Tom Connolly

[jalbright]

We have reached a quorum on the player side, and are currently two short of a quorum on the contributor side.

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Hank Greenberg
2. Ted Lyons
3. Joe Start
4. Home Run Johnson
5. Rube Waddell
6. Red Ruffing
7. Joe Medwick
8. Billy Herman
9. Stan Hack
10. Willie Foster
11. Harry Stovey
12. Ezra Sutton


Contributors
1. Al Spink
2. J.G. Taylor Spink
3. Larry MacPhail
4. Frank Selee
5. Casey Stengel

[jalbright]

With the above vote by Brad, we've only got three voters who voted in last election yet to vote in this one: jaxxr, J W, and Paul Wendt. Those in that threesome who do not vote by Sunday night or Monday will get a reminder PM. We need one vote to reach a quorum on the contributor side.

On another issue, next year will add Jorge Pasquel to the contributor ballot. The player ballot has one guy I'll likely eventually vote for in Negro League catcher Quincy Trouppe. However, I haven't yet voted for Biz Mackey, and he definitely comes first for me. Beyond that, I see thin pickings in next year's additions to the eligible players:



Galan , Augie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Moore , Terry
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tobin , Jim
Trouppe , Quincy

[jalbright]

As things stand, the races are fairly tight, with 3 or 4 contestants with a real shot at the two spots behind Hank Greenberg, and 2 or 3 vying with a real shot at being this year's winner in the Contributor category.

[J W]

Players

1. Joe Jackson
2. Hank Greenberg
3. Biz Mackey
4. Frank Grant
5. Rube Waddell
6. Stan Coveleski
7. Stan Hack
8. Billy Herman
9. Charley Radbourn
10. Pie Traynor
11. Joe Sewell
12. Joe Medwick

Contributors

1. Alfred Spink
2. Ed Bolden
3. Miller Huggins
4. Tom Connolly
5. Frank Selee

[J W]

On the cusp: Beckwith, McGinnity, Gomez, Redding, Caruthers

- for what it's worth.

[jalbright]

We've now gotten to a quorum on the contributor ballot as well.

[Paul Wendt]

(quote in part)
4. Frank Grant
7. Stan Hack
8. Billy Herman
10. Pie Traynor
11. Joe Sewell

JW,
Do you believe that Frank Grant was a greater player than Hack, Herman, Traynor, and Sewell but they were greater than all the white infielders of his time?

[J W]

Pretty much. I reserve right to change my opinion, of course. It's a question regarding the validity of the data, but the data from Baseball Think Factory looked awfully impressive to me.

[jaxxr]

1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 Hank Greenberg
4 Willie Keeler
5 Bid McPhee
6 Rube Waddell
7 Chuck Klien
8 Bill Terry
9 Dizzy Dean
10 Pie Traynor
11 "Hoss' Radbourn
12 Willie Foster

[Paul Wendt]

So I am suddenly the "best friend" of Ezra Sutton.

Only tie for best friend as Sutton remains at #12 here and he is suddenly reaping those singletons, one point each, on other ballots.

1 Hank Greenberg
2 Grant Johnson
3 Charlie Radbourn
4 George Gore
5 Joe Start
6 Ted Lyons
7 Elmer Flick
8 Bid McPhee
9 Heinie Groh
10 Jack Glasscock
11 Billy Herman
12 Ezra Sutton

For anyone who is new here: We are recreating the frustrations of filling a hall of fame from a backlog of worthy candidates. According to the rules here we take the leaders (now the top three) from a rank-order ballot every year, rather than take everyone with 75% support on a Yes-No ballot as Cooperstown has always done. We have also considered "Negro Leagues" players from the beginning in 1936 which has amplified the traffic jam in the foyer.

After this year 1956 we will have 78 players plus star players Al Spalding and Rube Foster named as "contributors". After 1956 inductions there were 65 "players" in Coopertown (by later classification) plus star players Spalding, George Wright, and John McGraw, at least. Call it 80 and 68.

[jaxxr]

"According to the rules here we take the leaders (now the top three) from a rank-order ballot every year, rather than take everyone with 75% support on a Yes-No ballot as Cooperstown has always done."
..........................

Do the top 3, require at least a 51% support level, or simply elected by virtue of being a top 3 point getter ?

[jjpm74]

"According to the rules here we take the leaders (now the top three) from a rank-order ballot every year, rather than take everyone with 75% support on a Yes-No ballot as Cooperstown has always done."
..........................

Do the top 3, require at least a 51% support level, or simply elected by virtue of being a top 3 point getter ?

Top 3 point getters. We are trying to fill a hall that is the same size as the current NBHoFM in this project going chronologically. At some later date, I think jalbright's plan is to drop that number to 2 and eventually 1.

[jalbright]

Here's the rule in post 2 on players:


3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year.... I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

So we're in a three per year mode, regardless of percentage of the vote, until the 2010 election. The exceptions would be failing to meet the 10 voter quorum or an unresolvable tie, which would enlarge the number of candidates accepted (See rule 18 for details on this point).

[jalbright]

Just under 27 hours left in this election as I post this.

[Paul Wendt]

Clark Griffith makes his first appearance, I believe. If I don't have the discipline or energy to make the case next year, this will turn out to be a passive experiment like my votes for Tom Connolly last decade.

Contributors
1 Cum Posey, Homestead Grays
2 JL Wilkinson, Kansas City "All Nations" and Monarchs
3 JG Taylor Spink, The Sporting News
4 Frank Selee
5 Clark Griffith


As for Huggins, McCarthy, Barrow, and Ruppert,
so for Stengel, MacPhail, and George Weiss (not yet eligible).
I would like to know how people allocate credit for the Yankees success.

I know that the case for Larry MacPhail is based primarily on his work in Cincinnati and Brooklyn, re such business innovations as night games and live radio coverage.
--and I have expected that I will vote for Red Barber (not yet eligible), the primary radio announcer in Cincinnati and Brooklyn. How do people allocate credit to MacPhail and Barber for making radio broadcasts an institution?

[jalbright]

As for Huggins, McCarthy, Barrow, and Ruppert,
so for Stengel, MacPhail, and George Weiss (not yet eligible).
I would like to know how people allocate credit for the Yankees success.


I'm not a big Ruppert supporter, though he did push Barrow to create the Yankee farm system. I view Barrow and Weiss as the builders/maintainers of that success in terms of talent. Where I give McCarthy, Huggins and Weiss credit is for keeping their teams on top. Keeping people from getting complacent with a championship is very difficult, and they managed it. It was easier with the ability to threaten many players with replacement/trade because of the rich Yankee minor league system--but they had to be willing to make good on that threat once in a while. Beyond that, they had to keep their stars from becoming too satisfied, and they wouldn't have been easy to replace. Maybe that isn't too hard with Gehrig and DiMaggio, but many of the others presented issues that needed to be watched. Stengel also gets credit for reviving the use of platooning. McCarthy had success elsewhere (I'd argue everywhere he went), so he wasn't just a Yankee creation.

[jalbright]

We have had our usual 14 player ballots and 11 contributor ballots. On the player side, we elected Hank Greenberg, Ted Lyons and Charlie Radbourn. The full results:



Player…………… votes points
Greenberg, Hank 14 163
Lyons , Ted 9 72
Radbourn , C 10 69
Waddell , Rube 9 65
Jackson , Joe 6 60
Johnson , HR 7 48
Herman, Billy 8 45
Foster, Willie 8 44
Keeler , Willie 7 43
Start , Joe 4 37
Traynor , Pie 7 33
Ruffing , Red 4 32
Hack, Stan 5 30
Mackey, Biz 4 25
McPhee , Bid 4 25
Flick , Elmer 4 22
Medwick, Joe 5 22
Coveleski , S 3 21
Groh , Heinie 3 18
Stovey , Harry 4 17
Ferrell, Wes 4 16
Grant , Frank 2 16
Terry , Bill 3 15
Thompson , S 2 14
Bennett , C 2 13
Gore , George 3 13
Klein, Chuck 2 13
Dean, Dizzy 2 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Carey , Max 1 9
Caruthers , B 1 9
Beckwith, John 3 8
Smith, Hilton 1 8
Berger , Wally 1 7
Maranville , R 1 7
Faber , Red 1 6
Hill , Pete………. 1 6
Sutton , Ezra 4 4
Glasscock , J 1 3
Jennings , H 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Sewell , Joe 1 2
Averill, Earl 1 1
Bridges, Tommy 1 1
Galvin , Pud 1 1
McGinnity , Joe 1 1


On the contributor side, Cum Posey and Alfred Spink were tied, but Spink was rated higher by six of our eleven voters to five for Posey, so Alfred Spink is inducted. The complete results:



Contributors…. votes points
Spink, Alfred 7 26
Posey, Cum 7 26
Stengel , Casey 6 19
Spink, JGT 5 14
Taylor , C. I. 3 12
Huggins , M 4 10
MacPhail , L 6 10
Selee , Frank 5 10
Pearce, Dickey 2 8
Chance , Frank 1 5
Doubleday , A 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Bolden, Ed 1 4
Wilkinson, JL 1 4
Connolly , T 2 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2
Conlon , C 1 1
Griffith , C 1 1

[jalbright]

Do the top 3, require at least a 51% support level, or simply elected by virtue of being a top 3 point getter ?

The lowest percentage vote to get anyone elected thus far is Alexander Cartwright, who got exactly 50%. As we go deeper into the pool of candidates, we may differ more on who we vote for, which opens the possibility of electing someone with a smaller percentage. That said, it's not going to be easy if there's a fair degree of agreement on the top candidates, because the only way to get there in that circumstance is to have almost all #1 votes, as Cartwright did. If there's a wide split on who's among the top 12, the chances of a smaller percentage winner emerging rise dramatically.

[J W]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Albert Spink, who I honestly don't know much about, and Alfred Spink, founder of the Sporting News. I voted for Alfred, not Albert. Are these two separate people or the same person?

[jalbright]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Albert Spink, who I honestly don't know much about, and Alfred Spink, founder of the Sporting News. I voted for Alfred, not Albert. Are these two separate people or the same person?

My mental block. It's Alfred.

[J W]

OK; very good.