[Rolled] composite bats in HS baseball, spring 2010

[skipper5]

Unfortunately, next spring on the sidelines at HS baseball games, there will be a new discussion topic, competing for air-time with complaints about PT or tactics.

As most of us know by now, college baseball has banned fiber-epoxy composite bats because they get hotter and hotter with use, or when they're broken-in artificially through "rolling"--a service that is available on multiple web-sites.

Now that the cat is out of the bag---

From another board:
"In many ways, the NCAA has highlighted the practice [of rolling composite bats] and made it even more commonly known. Assuming that high schools don't ban these bats for the 2010 season, I would assume that every HS kid in America is going to be trying to get their hands on one of these bats - and will roll it at once."

In terms of game-integrity and liability, 2010 will be an interesting spring if Fed. continues to allow composite bats.

In terms of aesthetics, my front yard will be one of many featuring an expensive 29 oz piece of lawn sculpture if Fed. decides to ban composite bats.

I'm in favor of banning composites from baseball. But wish I'd been a smarter consumer, and bought metal.

[escort1991]

Well that is what standards are for. If the bats are exceeding the standards, then something must be done about the bats. If they aren't exceeding the standard, then something needs to be done about the standards.

What is the penalty in baseball if you are found with a doctored bat?

[scorekeeper]

Well that is what standards are for. If the bats are exceeding the standards, then something must be done about the bats. If they aren't exceeding the standard, then something needs to be done about the standards. . . .

There were bats exceeding the BESR standards from day 1. The trouble was, they were exceeding the standards because the standards were set so ridiculously low. A pitch speed of 70MPH and a bat speed of 67 for college athletes is absurd, but that was the basis of BESR.

So, the standards were a problem. Now whether BBCOR takes care of that, I don’t know.

[skipper5]

Scorekeeper,
IMO, you are confusing the issue, somewhat.

The urgent problem for the NCAA isn't the BESR test--it's the fact that composites-- a very recent addition to the 'adult' baseball bat category--gain performance after testing due to natural break-in and-- in some cases-- artificial break-in, thus exceeding BESR in the field of play. The 2011 (NCAA) and 2012 (Fed) switch to a BBCOR-based std. won't solve the current inherent structural instability of composites.

Escort,
I don't know what the penalty is in baseball for getting caught using a doctored bat, but from a practical standpoint, "rolled" composite bats are not detectable in the field.
And even when the composite bats are broken in naturally, they get hotter with use.

[DClutch]

What exactly is bat rolling?

[Chieftain20]

What exactly is bat rolling?

Where you put pressure on the bat with a machine on usually around 12 points of the bat to break in the fibers in the bat. It's just a quick way of breaking in your bat evenly. I prefer breaking in my bat the normal way, and I don't see anything wrong with rolling bats...

[HYP]

Where you put pressure on the bat with a machine on usually around 12 points of the bat to break in the fibers in the bat. It's just a quick way of breaking in your bat evenly. I prefer breaking in my bat the normal way, and I don't see anything wrong with rolling bats...

Do you see anything wrong with corking a bat

[skipper5]

Do you see anything wrong with corking a bat

Good analogy, HYP. Corking a wood bat doesn't work. But if it did work, most of us could consider it to be cheating.

Dialogues about whether "rolling" composites is cheating or not have taken place on a frequent basis over the past few years on slow-pitch softball forums.


IMO, if you have a type of baseball bat whose stock performance can be increased by an easily available/inexpensive procedure (rolling), then you get rid of that type of bat. Why in heaven's name did we need composite baseball bats when we already had metal baseball bats, which were doing the job just fine, and are difficult to alter for increased performance?

[Harley]

Why not go back to wood? If you're going to ban composites for safety reasons, then ban metal too. This would be a great way for college players to prepare themselves for professional baseball.

I personally hate the sound of metal bats. I love the sound of composites and wood.

[Cannonball]

Next Spring? In fastpitch softball, this is already prevalent. You can go to companies who will sell you the roller as an attachment for the ball of your bumper. (Provided you have a truck or suv with a ball attachment to pull trailors etc.)

On another forum, I pointed out that this might even become a legal issue. If it can be determined that a bat has been rolled and someone sustains an injury from a player using such a bat, I'm betting that the award will be substaintial. I know that if my dd gets hit and injured severly, I'm going to ask that the bat be confiscated.

[Chieftain20]

Good analogy, HYP. Corking a wood bat doesn't work. But if it did work, most of us could consider it to be cheating.

How does corking not work? Secondly when you roll a bat all you are doing is breaking it in without the effort. I personally prefer getting my cuts in because I don't believe a bat makes a batter ;)

(owner of a broken composite bat :()

[skipper5]

How does corking not work? Secondly when you roll a bat all you are doing is breaking it in without the effort. I personally prefer getting my cuts in because I don't believe a bat makes a batter ;)

(owner of a broken composite bat :()

The scientists that test bats in labs have proven that corking a wood bat doesn't improve it's performance.
They discovered that--
--Corking doesn't give a wood bat trampoline effect.
--A cork core makes a wood bat lighter to increase its swing speed, but those performance gains are lost because of reduced mass at the point of contact

[HYP]

The scientists that test bats in labs have proven that corking a wood bat doesn't improve it's performance.
They discovered that--
--Corking doesn't give a wood bat trampoline effect.
--A cork core makes a wood bat lighter to increase its swing speed, but those performance gains are lost because of reduced mass at the point of contact

While I agree that cork in a bat doesn't increase the performance because of what you stated, "quicker swing speed but less mass". Here's what I have seen some do and would like to see this scientific data. They put rubber super balls in them. Which doesn't decrease weight but I wonder if it would increase exit speed?

Also to the comment about rolling = breaking in faster and more evenly. I thought it was illegal to artificially doctor the bat in any way to increase performance.

[hitnpeas]

Good analogy, HYP. Corking a wood bat doesn't work. But if it did work, most of us could consider it to be cheating.

Dialogues about whether "rolling" composites is cheating or not have taken place on a frequent basis over the past few years on slow-pitch softball forums.


IMO, if you have a type of baseball bat whose stock performance can be increased by an easily available/inexpensive procedure (rolling), then you get rid of that type of bat. Why in heaven's name did we need composite baseball bats when we already had metal baseball bats, which were doing the job just fine, and are difficult to alter for increased performance?

Do you know how easy it is to get a bat shaved? I guess not.... :nod:

[hitnpeas]

Next Spring? In fastpitch softball, this is already prevalent. You can go to companies who will sell you the roller as an attachment for the ball of your bumper. (Provided you have a truck or suv with a ball attachment to pull trailors etc.)

On another forum, I pointed out that this might even become a legal issue. If it can be determined that a bat has been rolled and someone sustains an injury from a player using such a bat, I'm betting that the award will be substaintial. I know that if my dd gets hit and injured severly, I'm going to ask that the bat be confiscated.

To see if it has been rolled? How exactly are you going to prove it? Shaved you can prove, rolled, not so much.... :confused:

[Ursa Major]

Cannonball said: On another forum, I pointed out that this might even become a legal issue. If it can be determined that a bat has been rolled and someone sustains an injury from a player using such a bat, I'm betting that the award will be substaintial. I know that if my dd gets hit and injured severly, I'm going to ask that the bat be confiscated.To see if it has been rolled? How exactly are you going to prove it? Shaved you can prove, rolled, not so much.... :confused:Well, I presume you could take it to a testing lab and they could determine that the "break-in" (i.e., torn fibers) is too consistent throughout the bat to be accounted for by being hit intermittently with pitches.

The trick in establishing legal liability is proving that the rolling was the proximate cause of the injury. Here, you'd have to prove that the ball hit a part of the bat that was 'hot' because of rolling and not because of repeated use and that the infinitesmal extra speed that resulted was the difference between the fielder getting a glove up in time and not being able to do so. Plus, you have the additional factor of "assumption of the risk" that is factored into all sports -- a player in all sports finds it difficult to recover for injuries caused by others on the field even if the 'perpetrator' did something dangerous or wrong. In fact, just about the only time you can recover is if someone takes a swing at you after a play is over with a fist or a hockey stick.

BTW, a friend who pitches at a college in the South told me the other day that one college down there is notorious for lining up their bats and driving over them repeatedly with their pickup trucks. I'm not sure that this counts as "rolling", but it sure sounds like a classic coupling of "good ol' boy" mindsets with modern technology. :candle: :candle:

[Cannonball]

My dd's been hit in the face twice. She now wears a face mask. If any of you think that people who roll their bats keep it hush hush, think again. It shouldn't be too hard to prove that a bat has been rolled and especially so when you can find companies who advertise for the services. Also, especially so since some people are providing the service of rolling a bat in the parking lot of tournaments. Ursa, I know you deal with legal issues and so, IF it can be proved that a bat becomes "hotter" when rolled and IF you can then prove that this is a violation in every "association" where games are played and IF you can determine that "legal bats" have a rated bat exit speed, then are you suggesting that in a court of law a jury will not award a settlement? I'm betting that when testimony is given and it is pointed out that the user intentionally altered the bat to gain an advantage knowing that this could also place the opposing defense in jeopardy, then they will have a hard position to defend. I live in Madison County, Illinois. This is the lawsuit capital of the U.S. I'm betting that the odds are with me.

[Drill]

The burden of proof will fall on the father and mother who's son/daughter got hurt of course. Try getting the bat that lined a ball up the middle, wounder what the proper procedure would be if you were sitting up in the stands. Run down and grab the bat and line up or score book for proof?


Just a thought,


drill

[hitnpeas]

Well, I presume you could take it to a testing lab and they could determine that the "break-in" (i.e., torn fibers) is too consistent throughout the bat to be accounted for by being hit intermittently with pitches.

The trick in establishing legal liability is proving that the rolling was the proximate cause of the injury. Here, you'd have to prove that the ball hit a part of the bat that was 'hot' because of rolling and not because of repeated use and that the infinitesmal extra speed that resulted was the difference between the fielder getting a glove up in time and not being able to do so. Plus, you have the additional factor of "assumption of the risk" that is factored into all sports -- a player in all sports finds it difficult to recover for injuries caused by others on the field even if the 'perpetrator' did something dangerous or wrong. In fact, just about the only time you can recover is if someone takes a swing at you after a play is over with a fist or a hockey stick.

BTW, a friend who pitches at a college in the South told me the other day that one college down there is notorious for lining up their bats and driving over them repeatedly with their pickup trucks. I'm not sure that this counts as "rolling", but it sure sounds like a classic coupling of "good ol' boy" mindsets with modern technology. :candle: :candle:

You are also assuming that the bat was rolled and not hit much after that....Once you start using the bat, it will continue to break in with some spots flexing more than others thus looking like a well broken in bat with the inconsistent flex points you speak of. Unless the person who rolled it "pinched it" and left tracks on the bat, you won't be able to detect it even after it is opened up. FWIW, I guarantee you have rolled/shaved bats at just about every softball field around your area and they are becoming more prevalent in baseball games as well. As for good ol boy methods, go have some fun and put a bat in a table vice!! lol.... You want to see what these bats can handle, it will amaze you how far you can squeeeeeeze them before the actually break.... :crazy


My dd's been hit in the face twice. She now wears a face mask. If any of you think that people who roll their bats keep it hush hush, think again. It shouldn't be too hard to prove that a bat has been rolled and especially so when you can find companies who advertise for the services. Also, especially so since some people are providing the service of rolling a bat in the parking lot of tournaments. Ursa, I know you deal with legal issues and so, IF it can be proved that a bat becomes "hotter" when rolled and IF you can then prove that this is a violation in every "association" where games are played and IF you can determine that "legal bats" have a rated bat exit speed, then are you suggesting that in a court of law a jury will not award a settlement? I'm betting that when testimony is given and it is pointed out that the user intentionally altered the bat to gain an advantage knowing that this could also place the opposing defense in jeopardy, then they will have a hard position to defend. I live in Madison County, Illinois. This is the lawsuit capital of the U.S. I'm betting that the odds are with me.

See my post above.... You are going to have a hard time PROVING that a bat has been rolled. Heck you want to start talking about "altering" bats, what about more than 2 layers of tape? I guess you could argue if someone got hit you could sue them for using an altered bat if they wrapped 3 layers of tape on it!! lmao.... At what point is the physical structure changed? One could argue that rolling a bat DOES NOT alter the physical structure, unlike shaving which actually removes material from the bat. On the flip side, if it were determined that rolling does change the physical structure, then wouldn't taking BP do the same thing just slower? Hmmmmmm.... :yawn:

"A bat is considered altered when the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed. A “flare” or “cone” grip attached to the bat handle, inserting material inside the bat, applying excessive tape (more than two layers) to the bat grip or painting a bat other than at the top or bottom for identification purposes are examples of altering a bat."

Lastly, ASA has recently started rolling each bat prior to testing its performance. ASA actually rolls bats themselves, then tests them. If the bat performs at a level higher than what's permitted by their rules it's not approved. If it performs at the permitted level then they approve it. So bats that are rolled and used in competition may be considered OK since a rolled bat still complies with the exit speed standards. :party:

[skipper5]

Do you know how easy it is to get a bat shaved? I guess not.... :nod:

Hitnpeas,
I should have written that "metal baseball bats are MORE [added] difficult to alter to increase performance", since they can't be subjected to the inexpensive rolling process used on composite bats.

But I think your implication is on track. If composite bats are banned in HS, sideline-suspicion will shift to whether the opposition's aluminum bats are being shaved.

According to Dr. Dan Russell,
"... shaving the barrel - the end cap is removed, and a lathe is used to scrape of some of the material on the inside of the barrel. Making the walls of the barrel thinner makes the trampoline effect greater and can result in a significant increase (in excess of 8-mph) to the batted-ball speed. Barrel shaving can be done for both aluminum and composite bats, with similar increases in performance for both."

Russell states that an 8mph increase in batted ball spd. adds about 40 ft. of distance to a long fly ball in softball. In a game of inches like baseball, 40 ft. is huge.


Here's my proposal for HS baseball:
1. Ban composites.
2. Require HS baseball games to be played with shared bats--both teams use the same metal bats.

Ideally, I'd like to see HS baseball played with baseball bats (i.e., wood), but I'm trying to be realistic.

[Cannonball]

Deleted by me!

[hitnpeas]

Deleted by me!

Why delete your post? :confused:

[Cannonball]

Why delete your post? :confused:

It didn't serve a positive purpose.

[hitnpeas]

It didn't serve a positive purpose.

Why start now? :rofl: :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:

[Cannonball]

Why start now? :rofl: :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:

Of course you are right and essentially the reason I should be more of a reader than a poster. :highfive: I deleted my post because we are not going to agree on this. Believe me, I've run this scenerio past legal advisors after the second time my daughter was hit in the face. I have it on film. When it is your child and you understand the severity of the injuries, you (us as parents) are willing to do whatever it takes to stop practices such as rolling. Thus my posts in every thread about this subject.

[scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper,
IMO, you are confusing the issue, somewhat.

The urgent problem for the NCAA isn't the BESR test--it's the fact that composites-- a very recent addition to the 'adult' baseball bat category--gain performance after testing due to natural break-in and-- in some cases-- artificial break-in, thus exceeding BESR in the field of play. The 2011 (NCAA) and 2012 (Fed) switch to a BBCOR-based std. won't solve the current inherent structural instability of composites.

I may be confusing you, but I was simply answering escort1991 in his assessment of how to address the problem. The problem was and is, the BESR standard was too narrow, and I’m gonna guess the same’s gonna happen with BBCOR because the manufacturers need to have that “hook” to advertise their product being superior. If non-wood bats truly were made to not exceed wood, there’s be no reason to buy them! Think about it. Why spend $200-400 for a bat when you can get exactly the same thing for $40-60, and even better, you can buy the blanks and make your own bats.

I also think you’re assigning something that isn’t true. Who says the problem’s “URGENT”? The teams played with those bats the entire season at least, so let’s not assign urgency to the problem. If it was truly urgent, the NCAA had the power to ban them on the spot, at any time. Remember, they make the rules.

Out of curiosity, do you think for one second no one knew how the composites were going to perform? Heck, I’m gonna guess that the NCAA was in favor of more “bombs” because that’s what puts but in the seats. I think what happened is, they didn’t quite know how much more superior those things were going to be.

I also make a prediction that no matter what anyone bans, technology will find a way around it! There’s no way those companies aren’t spending millions on R&D, and that money will eventually produce something that will meet any standard imposed on the manufacturers.

IMHO, the only way to stop the “arms race”, is to come up with a way to test the bats at the game. I don’t know what it would be, but in order to be sure, a bat would need to be tested prior to every plate appearance, and immediately confiscated if found to be out of allowable tolerances.

[hitnpeas]

Of course you are right and essentially the reason I should be more of a reader than a poster. :highfive: I deleted my post because we are not going to agree on this. Believe me, I've run this scenerio past legal advisors after the second time my daughter was hit in the face. I have it on film. When it is your child and you understand the severity of the injuries, you (us as parents) are willing to do whatever it takes to stop practices such as rolling. Thus my posts in every thread about this subject.

I am sorry it happened to your DD not only once but twice.... I hope and pray my boys never have this happen to them as I can only imagine your feelings. I am unsure what you think my stance is that we don't agree on though? I was playing devils advocate while helping you to see that confiscating the bat if it happens to your daughter again is not going to prove anything. I just don't think you have a case unless you know the bat is shaved. Then you might have some proof to take before the judge. Bottom line is that you should get used to the fact that people roll bats. From Church league softball to competitive baseball. Whether you approve of it or not, those are the facts. Good luck in the future.....

[Kevkey]

Cannonball
Could not agree with you more. My daughter absolutely refused to wear a protective mask until a ball whistled by her head and she did not even have time to raise a glove. After that the only discussion was about which one she would wear. I also think that girls are at the greatest risk because of the extremely short distance between the batter and where the pitcher finishes. For those unfamiliar with softball it's 46 feet from the rubber to the back of home plate, 4 feet from the rubber to the front edge of the circle (where most pitchers finish) so the ball is only traveling somewhere around 40 feet to get to the pitcher. Parents of softball pitchers are, I believe, justifiably concerned/outraged about anything ILLEGAL that puts their child at greater risk of injury.

[shake-n-bake]

My son would like to get his bat rolled, but after reading some of the responses here I think we'll pass. He pitches (from 46') and has had 3 balls get him pretty good. Thankfully, none have been in the head.

He already hits the ball hard enough that it's a chuck-n-duck affair pitching to him. I don't think he needs the added distance or the added pop enough to justify putting other kids at greater risk.

The real revelation came last night at football practice. He was involved in what has been without a doubt the most violent collision of the season so far. It's fun to see your son drop the hammer on another kid like that and the coaches give him high fives and all that, until the other kid doesn't get back up. I know it's not badminton and there's assumed risk, but in the few minutes while the other kid was not moving my heart sank and I felt so much responsibility.

In that moment I realized that it's difficult enough to deal with your kid hurting someone else on a clean play.