Greatest Player by Position: Final Round [Archive]

Tyrus4189Cobb

08-29-2009, 06:00 PM

Last round was for rightfielders:
1) Babe Ruth- 130 points
2) Hank Aaron- 117 points
3) Frank Robinson- 103 points
4) Mel Ott- 89 points
5) Reggie Jackson- 66 points
6) Al Kaline- 48 points
7) Sam Crawford- 42 points
8) Tony Gwynn- 33 points
9) Roberto Clemente- 32 points
10) Gary Sheffield- 25 points

This is the final round. I would like everyone to post their top 15 pitchers. Consider PED players, NLers, and 19th- century players. Enjoy!

ItsOnlyGil

08-29-2009, 06:32 PM

Alexander
Brown
Clemens
Ford
Grove
Johnson, W.
Joss
Keefe
Maddux
Martinez
Mathewson
Paige
Spahn
Spalding
Young

STLCards2

08-29-2009, 06:36 PM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Lefty Grove
4. Greg Maddux
5. Pete Alexander
6. Tom Seaver
7. Satchel Paige
8. Randy Johnson
9. Roger Clemens
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Warren Spahn
12. Kid Nichols
13. Pedro Martinez
14. Bob Gibson
15. Steve Carlton
10. Warren Spahn

Blackout

08-29-2009, 06:51 PM

leecemark

08-29-2009, 09:48 PM

1) Greg Maddux
2) Walter Johnson
3) Cy Young
4) Lefty Grove
5) Roger Clemens
6) Pete Alexander
7) Tom Seaver
8) Satchel Paige
9) Warren Spahn
10) Randy Johnson
11) Christy Mathewson
12) Bob Feller
13) Steve Carlton
14) Pedro Martinez
15) Kid Nichols

AstrosFan

08-29-2009, 11:14 PM

Fifteen pitchers? *Deep breath*

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Roger Clemens
4. Cy Young
5. Pete Alexander
6. Lefty Grove
7. Randy Johnson
8. Satchel Paige
9. Tom Seaver
10. Pedro Martinez
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Warren Spahn
13. Smoky Joe Williams
14. Kid Nichols
15. Bob Feller

nerfan

08-30-2009, 04:00 AM

1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Greg Maddux
4. Lefty Grove
5. Pete Alexander
6. Satchel Paige
7. Tom Seaver
8. Cy Young
9. Warren Spahn
10. Randy Johnson
11. Pedro Martinez
12. Smokey Joe Williams
13. Christy Mathewson
14. Bob Feller
15. Kid Nichols

538280

08-30-2009, 07:57 AM

1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Greg Maddux
4. Pete Alexander
5. Tom Seaver
6. Cy Young
7. Lefty Grove
8. Satchel Paige
9. Randy Johnson
10. Steve Carlton
11. Warren Spahn
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Christy Mathewson
14. Smokey Joe Williams
15. Bob Gibson

NJRob65

08-30-2009, 11:26 AM

1. Walter Johnson

2. Roger Clemens

3.Grover Cleveland Alexander

4. Cy Young

5. Lefty Grove

6. Greg Maddux

7. Christy Mathewson

8. Satchel Paige

9. Randy Johnson

10. Tom Seaver

11. Warren Spahn

12. Kid Nichols

13. Pedro Martinez

14. Bob Gibson

15. Jim Palmer

rsuriyop

08-30-2009, 11:55 AM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Roger Clemens
5. Pete Alexander
6. Lefty Grove
7. Tom Seaver
8. Randy Johnson
9. Smoky Joe Williams
10. Satchel Paige
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Warren Spahn
14. Kid Nichols
15. Bob Feller
____________

nerfan

08-30-2009, 01:34 PM

Rating Clemens any lower than 3rd is a travesty of epic proportions.

bob

08-30-2009, 05:04 PM

Rating Clemens any lower than 3rd is a travesty of epic proportions.
Ratings are subjective, and with many people linking Clemens to steroids its not surprising (not to mention his personality and private life which will effect his legacy).

nerfan

08-30-2009, 05:12 PM

Ratings are subjective, and with many people linking Clemens to steroids its not surprising (not to mention his personality and private life which will effect his legacy).

Clemens has 9 ERA+ points on Maddux in the same number of innings. I've said many times that steroids don't affect my rating of a player. And yeah, so Clemens slept with a 15 year old girl. And yeah, he's a world class donkey. And yeah, he threw a bat at Mike Piazza.

This doesn't affect at all what the greatest pitcher of all time did on the mound.

538280

08-30-2009, 05:17 PM

I dislike Clemens as a person. I think his showing when accused was pathetic and unlike Bonds I just don't care for him. However his pitching record is unbelieveable. He pitched for just as long as Walter Johnson-Johnson has more IP because pitchers simply pitched far more in the deadball era. Clemens' IP is similar to Johnson's but I think he pitched against far superior competiton. I do think pitching less in the more modern era has inflated ERA+s to a degree, and it is very close between Clemens and Walter to me but due to the league quality I did choose Clemens by a small margin.

CTaka

08-30-2009, 06:35 PM

Rating Clemens any lower than 3rd is a travesty of epic proportions.

If you are one of the folks that take the blindfold approach to steroids or the "I don't care about steroids", I think your statement is valid. I would put Clemens in my top 3. But back in the real world, I put Cl*mens towards the back end of my top ten.

CTaka

08-30-2009, 06:39 PM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Lefty Grove
4. Cy Young
5. Pedro Martinez
6. Satchel Paige
7. Grover Cleveland Alexander
8. Randy Johnson
9. R*ger Clemens
10. Kid Nichols
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Tom Seaver
13. Warren Spahn
14. Bob Feller
15. Smokey Joe Williams

SHOELESSJOE3

08-30-2009, 07:46 PM

leecemark

08-30-2009, 07:53 PM

-- I move them down both some, but still rank them amoung the best. I had Clemens 1st before his PED use came out and dropped him to 5th. I had Bonds in my top 5 before the evidence became too compelling against him. He is 11th now. Both could move back up though. The prevelence of steroid use was so high that the playing field was not as unlevel as some may believe.

CTaka

08-30-2009, 07:55 PM

Double standard here. Bonds subject to doubting some of his numbers at certain points in his career. His ( Bond's) being bumped down on the all time greats list by some because of his linking to steroid use.....but not Clemens.

Not speaking of those who don't care at all if a player used or not, at least they are not concerned with either player or any player, thats their choice and I have no problem with their stance on steroid use..
But for those that are concerned about that use, Clemens no better than Bonds or any other user.

Some may have a double standard, but I don't think I applied one here. I'd put both Bonds and Clemens in my top three, and I'd put both B*nds and Cl*mens in my top ten, but the "*" drops both of them from top 3 to the back end of my top ten. And the ones who choose to take the blinders approach to steroids has both at the top of their lists.

SHOELESSJOE3

08-30-2009, 07:56 PM

nerfan

08-30-2009, 08:01 PM

Do any of you have proof that Greg Maddux did not use PED's?

leecemark

08-30-2009, 08:15 PM

--I don't think anybody of the last 20 years is above suspicion. That doesn't preclude making a adjustment to those who I KNOW used.

STLCards2

08-30-2009, 08:24 PM

--I don't think anybody of the last 20 years is above suspicion. That doesn't preclude making a adjustment to those who I KNOW used.

Right - I know it may be a futile experiment, and I may scrap the whole idea, but I still try to determine when a guy used (that is a task in itself) and then try to estimate that player's performance without steroids - which is why Bonds in 7th for me, and Clemens is 9th without Negro leaguers. Both would crack the top 3 without steroids. It is quite a task, and if it turns out that 80% of MLers were using, I will stop wasting my time.

bob

08-31-2009, 02:06 AM

Do any of you have proof that Greg Maddux did not use PED's?You cant provide proof of the absence of something. Just like i cant disprove there is a God.

PVNICK

08-31-2009, 04:55 AM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Greg Maddux
4. Cy Young
5. Satchel Paige
6. Pete Alexander
7. Tom Seaver
8. Christy Mathewson
9. Warren Spahn
10. Randy Johnson
11. Bob Gibson
12. Steve Carlton
13. Juan Marichal
14. Bob Feller
15. Roger Clemens

nerfan

08-31-2009, 06:44 AM

You cant provide proof of the absence of something. Just like i cant disprove there is a God.

I can provide proof of the absence of a 10,000 MPH fastball coming out of Peter Gammons' left arm. This is because it's physically impossible.

RuthMayBond

08-31-2009, 08:21 AM

Alexander
Brown
Clemens
Ford
Grove
Johnson, W.
Joss
Keefe
Maddux
Martinez
Mathewson
Paige
Spahn
Spalding
YoungWow, your ranking happens to be in alphabetical order :D
For career value
15 points- I suspect Satch was the best
14 points- Cyclone
13 points- Big Train
12 points- Rocket (until I figure out how much discount to give if any)
11 points- Grover Cleveland
10 points- Mad Dog
9 points- Grove
8 points- Matty
7 points- Nichols
6 points- Terrific
5 points- Spahn
4 points- Big Unit
3 points- Pedro
2 points- this seems to be about the average of where I've heard Smokey Joe Williams should go
1 points- Hoot

mwiggins

08-31-2009, 10:03 AM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Tom Seaver
5. Lefty Grove
6. Roger Clemens
7. Pete Alexander
8. Pedro Martinez
9. Satchel Paige
10. Warren Spahn
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Randy Johnson
13. Bob Gibson
14. Sandy Koufax
15. Bob Feller

Tyrus4189Cobb

08-31-2009, 10:16 AM

Alexander
Brown
Clemens
Ford
Grove
Johnson, W.
Joss
Keefe
Maddux
Martinez
Mathewson
Paige
Spahn
Spalding
Young

Please put these in order of who you believe is greatest.

Tyrus4189Cobb

08-31-2009, 10:19 AM

Walter Johnson
Smokey Joe Williams
Christy Mathewson
Pete Alexander
Pedro Martinez
Greg MAddux
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Mariano Rivera
Tom Seaver
Lefty Grove
Satchell PAige
Bob Feller
Johan Santana
Whitey Ford

Yeah I hate that Warren Spahn guy too...

Anyways, mine will be in shortly (like anyone cares) and I hope to get a solid 15 votes on this round. I haven't counted so I'm unsure how many there are right now.

RuthMayBond

08-31-2009, 10:22 AM

Johan Santana
just wait until he gets MORE than eight full seasons :ooo:

AstrosFan

08-31-2009, 10:47 AM

Yeah I hate that Warren Spahn guy too...

Anyways, mine will be in shortly (like anyone cares) and I hope to get a solid 15 votes on this round. I haven't counted so I'm unsure how many there are right now.

Seems he also hates that Cy Young guy :laugh

BigRon

08-31-2009, 11:33 AM

1. Walter Johnson
2. Grover Cleveland Alexander
3. Lefty Grove
4. Roger Clemens
5. Cy Young
6. Greg Maddux
7. Tom Seaver
8. Christy Mathewson
9. Warren Spahn
10. Randy Johnson
11. Bob Feller
12. Bob Gibson
13. Steve Carlton
14. Carl Hubbell
15. Juan Marichal

Pedro Martinez, as great as he was, needed more IPs/year in my opinion. Sandy Koufax, 61-66 was the greatest pitcher I ever saw, but I can't quite put him in my top 15 overall for what was essentially half a career.

ItsOnlyGil

08-31-2009, 11:58 AM

Please put these in order of who you believe is greatest.

Johnson
Brown
Grove
Alexander
Paige
Mathewson
Clemens
Joss
Keefe
Martinez
Young
Spahn
Maddux
Spalding
Ford

RyanExpress30

08-31-2009, 01:01 PM

Johnson, Walter
Alexander
Maddux
Mathewson
Grove
Ryan
Clemens
Young
Johnson, Randy
Seaver
Carlton
Koufax
Martinez
Gibson
Spahn

Tyrus4189Cobb

08-31-2009, 03:03 PM

The search for the perfect stat to rank pitchers continues. Until then:
1) Walter Johnson- 15 points
2) Greg Maddux- 14 points
3) Cy Young- 13 points
4) Lefty Grove- 12 points
5) Satchel Paige- 11 points
6) Pete Alexander- 10 points
7) Tom Seaver- 9 points
8) Roger Clemens- 8 points
9) Christy Mathewson- 7 points
10) Randy Johnson- 6 points
11) Warren Spahn- 5 points
12) Pedro Martinez- 4 points
13) Bob Gibson- 3 points
14) Smokey Joe Williams- 2 points
15) Sandy Koufax- 1 point

Just shy (no order): Bob Feller, Steve Carlton, Kid Nichols, Pud Galvin, Nolan Ryan, Juan Marichal.

I also think I took a year off my life choosing between Grove and Young. Baseball ranking: like putting arsenic in for a donut filling. :rip:

CTaka

08-31-2009, 10:00 PM

Pedro Martinez, as great as he was, needed more IPs/year in my opinion. Sandy Koufax, 61-66 was the greatest pitcher I ever saw, but I can't quite put him in my top 15 overall for what was essentially half a career.

If Pedro had more IPs/year, he'd be duking it out with Walter Johnson for the top spot on my list. Big Train might still have the top spot, but it would be very, very close for me.

Tyrus4189Cobb

09-02-2009, 01:18 PM

I'll keep the ballots open. I'm not sure when I will have calculate the results because I've been very sick and not up to doing it. Until then, hopefully we'll see more votes.

Tyrus4189Cobb

09-18-2009, 07:28 PM

I've become a magician. Making myself disappear for long periods.

I do thoroughly apologize for my disappearance. It's been one thing after another over here in Tyrusland. Nothing bad. Busy as a bee. I'll keep this up for a bit more to attract more votes. Then we're done. Pinky swear.

Tyrus4189Cobb

09-21-2009, 02:52 PM

Everything will be posted tomorrow. Thanks to all who voted.

Armster

10-07-2009, 03:30 PM

C
This doesn't affect at all what the greatest pitcher of all time did on the mound.

2nd best. Even looking at his numbers pre-1998 you can put him into the top 10 IMO.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Pete Alexander
4. Cy Young
5. Randy Johnson
6. Tom Seaver
7. Greg Maddux
8. Christy Mathewson
9. Lefty Grove
10. Satchel Paige
11. Warren Spahn
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Kid Nichols
14. Steve Carlton
15. Bob Gibson