which team is better??????

[Blackout]

the first name listed = starter

team A:

C Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey
1B Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
2B Joe Gordon, Tony Lazzeri
SS Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciapara
3B Wade Boggs, Alex Rodriguez
LF Joe Dimaggio, Manny Ramirez
CF Mickey Mantle, Tris Speaker
RF Babe Ruth, Carl Yastremski
DH Ted Williams


P Cy Young
P Lefty Grove
P Whitey Ford
P Roger Clemens
P Pedro Martinez

RP Dennis Eckersley (backup closer)
RP Andy PEttitte
RP Ron Guidry
RP Lefty Gomez
RP Goose Gossage
CL Mariano Rivera



team B:

C Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza
1B Albert Pujols, Willie McCovey
2B Rogers Hornsby, Jackie Robinson
SS Honus Wagner, Hanley Ramirez
3B Mike Schmidt, George Brett
LF Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds
CF Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr.
RF Hank Aaron, Stan Musial
DH Mark McGwire



P Walter Johnson
P Pete Alexander
P Christy MAthewson
P Greg Maddux
P Warren Spahn

RP Sandy Koufax
RP Tom Seaver
RP Tim Keefe
RP Johan Santana
RP Trevor Hoffman
CL Joe Nathan

[Blackout]

that Boston YAnkees lineup is just devistating


Wade Boggs
Derek Jeter
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Joe Dimaggio
Yogi Berra
Joe Gordon


that's just impossible to get outs.


or

Jeter
Williams
Ruth
Gehrig
Mantle
Dimaggio
A-rod
Berra
Gordon (or maybe we can make Boggs a 2nd baseman)

[nerfan]

I counter with

SS Honus Wagner
RF Ty Cobb
LF Barry Bonds
DH Hank Aaron
CF Willie Mays
1B Stan Musial
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
C Johnny Bench.

Good game, my friend. And seriously, Foxx/Grove/Tris aren't Yanks/BoSox.

[mwiggins]

that Boston YAnkees lineup is just devistating


Wade Boggs
Derek Jeter
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Joe Dimaggio
Yogi Berra
Joe Gordon


that's just impossible to get outs.

I would take my chances with a Boston/New York National League team myself.

C - Campy/Piazza
1B - Mize
2B - J. Robinson
3B - Mathews
SS - Reese
LF - Hamilton
CF - Mays
RF - Snider
DH - Ott
SP - Koufax
SP - Vance
SP - Matty
SP - Spahn
SP - Seaver
RP - Wilhelm

1. Hamilton
2. Robinson
3. Mays
4. Mize
5. Ott
6. Snider
7. Mathews
8. Campy
9. Reese

[dgarza]

SS Honus Wagner, Hanley Ramirez
Are you trying to weaken the "other" team here? :laugh

[Blackout]

I counter with

SS Honus Wagner
RF Ty Cobb
LF Barry Bonds
DH Hank Aaron
CF Willie Mays
1B Stan Musial
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
C Johnny Bench.

Good game, my friend. And seriously, Foxx/Grove/Tris aren't Yanks/BoSox.

even this lineup does not contain the sheer power and dominance of Babe/Gehrig/Mantle/Williams/Dimaggio


the qualifications are "mustve played for the yankees or red sox for 2+ years"


what if we take out Boggs and throw in Arod (2007 form)

[JRB]

I would take my chances with a Boston/New York National League team myself.

C - Campy/Piazza
1B - Mize
2B - J. Robinson
3B - Mathews
SS - Reese
LF - Hamilton
CF - Mays
RF - Snider
DH - Ott
SP - Koufax
SP - Vance
SP - Matty
SP - Spahn
SP - Seaver
RP - Wilhelm

1. Hamilton
2. Robinson
3. Mays
4. Mize
5. Ott
6. Snider
7. Mathews
8. Campy
9. Reese

Mark: You missed Hornsby at second. He played only one year for Boston, but he had the highest batting average and OPS+ in the history of the franchise. Not to mention that he also lead the league in OPS+ the season he played in NY.

[AstrosFan]

Mark: You missed Hornsby at second. He played only one year for Boston, but he had the highest batting average and OPS+ in the history of the franchise. Not to mention that he also lead the league in OPS+ the season he played in NY.

Nice find. You never miss anything Hornsby related.

[AstrosFan]

Rickey Henderson played a season with the Mets in 1999 and a part of one in 2000. If he counts, he should be the left fielder. I'd bump Snider off.

Arky Vaughan should be the shortstop.

Eddie Mathews only played one season as a Boston Brave. If we go by Blackout's two seasons rule, he's not eligible. Among players who are primarily considered third basemen, the top choices are Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, and Ken Boyer. I'd take Collins.

I'd take Gary Carter over Roy Campanella, but it's not something I'd get worked up about. Bill Burgess would take Buck Ewing.

Finally, Carl Hubbell and Kid Nichols probably deserve a spot somewhere on that staff.

[Joltin' Joe]

LF Joe Dimaggio
CF Mickey Mantle


They need to switch positions.

[538280]

I wouldn't put on Hornsby as I think the player has to have played more than one season, they have to be primarily or at least heavily associated with the franchise for me (so Foxx and Grove can be Red Sox, as they are "heavily" associated even if they played more for the A's). How about just a Boston/New York team (AL and NL) against all other cities?

Boston/New York
C: Mike Piazza, Yogi Berra
1B: Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
2B: Jackie Robinson, Frankie Frisch
3B: Wade Boggs, Frank Baker
SS: Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter
LF: Mickey Mantle, Rickey Henderson
CF: Willie Mays, Tris Speaker
RF: Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio
DH: Ted Williams

SP: Roger Clemens
SP: Tom Seaver
SP: Cy Young
SP: Lefty Grove
SP: Warren Spahn

RP: Mariano Rivera

Non Boston/New York
C: Johnny Bench, Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas
2B: Rogers Hornsby, Joe Morgan
3B: Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews
SS: Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken
LF: Barry Bonds, Stan Musial
CF: Ty Cobb, Ken Griffey Jr.
RF: Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson

SP: Walter Johnson
SP: Greg Maddux
SP: Pete Alexander
SP: Randy Johnson
SP: Steve Carlton

RP: Dennis Eckersley

I still think I'd go with the Non-NY/Boston team here but it's very close. I'd take the NY/Boston team at 1B, CF, and RF, the other team at the other positoins though many of them are very close. The pitching staffs are almost equal to me. Tons of great players have come from NY and Boston, no doubt.

[nerfan]

AL + NL I'd go with New York/Boston. But not just the Sox and Yankees.

[nerfan]

even this lineup does not contain the sheer power and dominance of Babe/Gehrig/Mantle/Williams/Dimaggio


the qualifications are "mustve played for the yankees or red sox for 2+ years"


what if we take out Boggs and throw in Arod (2007 form)

Bonds = Ruth
Musial > Gehrig
Cobb > Mantle
Williams > Whoever our DH is, I didn't specify. But Williams is the 3rd greatest hitter ever.
Mays > DiMaggio

And we win at every other position. If you want to go NY Giants/Dodgers/Mets then we're talking.

[Blackout]

Bonds = Ruth
Musial > Gehrig

LMAO

this post = :crazy:crazy:crazy


in what world is Musial even comparable to Lou Gehrig?


and FTW I'll take Dimaggio at his best over Willie Mays. Why? a college baseball HOF coach told me so.

[STLCards2]

LMAO

this post = :crazy:crazy:crazy


in what world is Musial even comparable to Lou Gehrig?


and FTW I'll take Dimaggio at his best over Willie Mays. Why? a college baseball HOF coach told me so.

Musial did have 3,100 more PA's with a majority of them during post-integraton. Can 3,100 PA's in a tougher league close the 15-20 point OPS+ gap? Questionable.

[STLCards2]

More on Musial and Gehrig:

I won't claim Musial is better, and I have seen a few with one of them in their top 5, but almost every single person who's list I have ever seen has both guys somewhere between #5 and #15 all-time - without fail and rarely are they far apart. I don't see how two guys with such similar rankings (among the overwhelming vast majority) can be nearly as far apart as blackout is saying. "In what world..." Well, apparantly in virtually everybody elses' world.

[Joltin' Joe]

Bill James has Musial #10 and Gehrig #14.

[STLCards2]

Bill James has Musial #10 and Gehrig #14.

One point - a lot has changed for Bill James and statistical analysis in general sinse 2001 or whenever that list came out. In SABR terms, the early 2000s are the Dark Ages. I bet a current list from James would look completely different.

[Joltin' Joe]

One point - a lot has changed for Bill James and statistical analysis in general sinse 2001 or whenever that list came out. In SABR terms, the early 2000s are the Dark Ages. I bet a current list from James would look completely different.


BP has been constantly messing around with their stats and it looks like Gehrig got quite a bit downgraded. Judging by their WARP3, I would think that Davenport would rate Musial above Gehrig?

[STLCards2]

BP has been constantly messing around with their stats and it looks like Gehrig got quite a bit downgraded. Judging by their WARP3, I would think that Davenport would rate Musial above Gehrig?

Davenport's WARP sets replacement level very low, so I would think that it would help Musial. Either way, WARP3 has questionable defensive-metrics, and has over-the-top league quality adjustments. I would only look at it as a quick, thumbnail metric.

[Blackout]

Musial did have 3,100 more PA's with a majority of them during post-integraton. Can 3,100 PA's in a tougher league close the 15-20 point OPS+ gap? Questionable.

compare their top 10 seasons




musial .347/.434/.589, 46 doubles, 14 triples, 26 HR, 111 RBI, 125 runs, 6 SB, 2 CS, 94 B, 173 OPS+


gehrig .350/.457/.660, 41 doubles, 12 triples, 41 HR, 160 RBI, 149 Runs, 8 SB, 9 CS, 117 BB, 191 OPS+






top 10 seasons in OPS?


Gehrig 221,208,203,194,194,190,181,177,177,176


Musial 200,183,182,178,176,175,172,169,167,166




I think I know who I'm taking - the guy with 7 rings, a .364 playoff batting average and 493 Homers

[STLCards2]

compare their top 10 seasons




musial .347/.434/.589, 46 doubles, 14 triples, 26 HR, 111 RBI, 125 runs, 6 SB, 2 CS, 94 B, 173 OPS+


gehrig .350/.457/.660, 41 doubles, 12 triples, 41 HR, 160 RBI, 149 Runs, 8 SB, 9 CS, 117 BB, 191 OPS+






top 10 seasons in OPS?


Gehrig 221,208,203,194,194,190,181,177,177,176


Musial 200,183,182,178,176,175,172,169,167,166




I think I know who I'm taking - the guy with 7 rings, a .364 playoff batting average and 493 Homers

I agre that Gehrig's top 10 seasons are better - but Musial's next 12 seasons easily tops Gehrig, not that all of it is gehrigs fault. I guess it depends on if you are a peak or career value person.

[STLCards2]

Here is a Musial vs. Gehrig thread in case anybody is interested.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69902&highlight=Stan+Musial

And the latest BBF Greatest Players series
1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Hank Aaron
7. Mickey Mantle
8. Tris Speaker
9. Lou Gehrig
10. Rogers Hornsby
11. Stan Musial


BBF sees a very slight edge for Gehrig, which is fine with me.

[mwiggins]

Mark: You missed Hornsby at second. He played only one year for Boston, but he had the highest batting average and OPS+ in the history of the franchise. Not to mention that he also lead the league in OPS+ the season he played in NY.

I forgot about his Boston season. Nice catch, JRB. I figured the one year with the Giants wasn't enough, but I suppose with the year in Boston he could be eligible.

Maybe he DH's instead of Ott. The lineup already has plenty of power hitters, so if they were actually playing games on the field, I'd probably rather keep Jackie in the lineup.

[mwiggins]

Rickey Henderson played a season with the Mets in 1999 and a part of one in 2000. If he counts, he should be the left fielder. I'd bump Snider off.

Arky Vaughan should be the shortstop.

Eddie Mathews only played one season as a Boston Brave. If we go by Blackout's two seasons rule, he's not eligible. Among players who are primarily considered third basemen, the top choices are Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, and Ken Boyer. I'd take Collins.

I'd take Gary Carter over Roy Campanella, but it's not something I'd get worked up about. Bill Burgess would take Buck Ewing.

Finally, Carl Hubbell and Kid Nichols probably deserve a spot somewhere on that staff.

Yes, Vaughan for sure. I totally missed him. I wouldn't count Rickey myself. I figured Mathews, since he did play for the Braves so many years, could count with just one year in Boston. I didn't realize Blackout was using two years. Bob Elliott would be decent choice as well at 3B. Or David Wright. Or Ott for that matter. Ott could start, with Collins as a late innings defensive replacement.

Ewing would be my 3rd catcher/utility player, but I wouldn't have a problem with Carter.

Hubbell and Nichols would be in the pen along with Gooden and Cone and Santana and McGraw. I'm sure there's some others I'm overlooking.

Revised Lineup:

1. Robinson 2B
2. Vaughan SS
3. Hornsby DH
4. Mize 1B
5. Mays CF
6. Snider RF
7. Campy/Piazza C
8. Collins 3B
9. Hamilton LF

[Blackout]

Here is a Musial vs. Gehrig thread in case anybody is interested.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=69902&highlight=Stan+Musial

And the latest BBF Greatest Players series
1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Hank Aaron
7. Mickey Mantle
8. Tris Speaker
9. Lou Gehrig
10. Rogers Hornsby
11. Stan Musial


BBF sees a very slight edge for Gehrig, which is fine with me.

so you're going to penalize a guy for dying?


Gehrig's playoff preformance needs to be looked at too. probably the best hitter in the playoffs ever.

[STLCards2]

deleted post

[Honus Wagner Rules]

LMAO

this post = :crazy:crazy:crazy


in what world is Musial even comparable to Lou Gehrig?


and FTW I'll take Dimaggio at his best over Willie Mays. Why? a college baseball HOF coach told me so.

:crazy Did you even bother to read some baseball history? I can pick Mays because he is the greatest all-around player, Joe Morgan says so. :nod:

[Victory Faust]

Team B has a slightly better, deeper pitching staff, IMO. So going by the adage that good pitching stops good hitting, then I'll pick Team B.

[Blackout]

:crazy Did you even bother to read some baseball history? I can pick Mays because he is the greatest all-around player, Joe Morgan says so. :nod:

no i've been posting at this forum for 4 years without a clue about baseball, history, OR baseball history


i hear it involves a man throwing a ball and someone trying to hit it with a stick??




and Mays doesn't have 9 rings to go with his same OPS+ as Dimaggio does he?

[nerfan]

LMAO

this post = :crazy:crazy:crazy


in what world is Musial even comparable to Lou Gehrig?


and FTW I'll take Dimaggio at his best over Willie Mays. Why? a college baseball HOF coach told me so.

In a world where.... Musial was more versatile than Gehrig also, he could play 1B and both the corner OF positions, didn't embarrass himself anywhere. He could probably play CF in a pinch as well. I don't give credit for what Lou could have done if not for his ALS. That sounds harsh, but do any of you give credit to Joe Wood even though his arm fell off? No. A death is just a severe, more lamentable injury.

I do see the gap between them as very small, however. Musial > Gehrig by just a little. And the rest non-Sox/Yanks team kicks the rear end of the Sox/Yanks team at the other positions.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

no i've been posting at this forum for 4 years without a clue about baseball, history, OR baseball history
Well you hardly ever put post in-depth reasons for your picks, other than just picking Yankee players over non-Yankee players. Seriously, can you link to a post where you made a detailed and reasoned argument that didn't involve just simply saying

Yankee player >> non-Yankee player.

Out of curiosity what baseball history books have you read?



i hear it involves a man throwing a ball and someone trying to hit it with a stick??
Really?



and Mays doesn't have 9 rings to go with his same OPS+ as Dimaggio does he?

That is your you argument? Bill Dickey has more rings than Johnny Bench so I guess that means he's better than Bench? You said you picked Joe DiMaggio or Willie Mays because some college baseball coach said so. That doesn't seem like a convincing argument. As for the OPS+ I guess that fact that Mays had 4,822 more plate appearances means nothing? DiMaggio had 7,671 career PAs. Though 7,999 PA's Mays had a 161 OPS+. Through 8,637 PA's Mays had a career 163 OPS+.