Browns' uniform question, and others

[4evertribe]

All right, first off I'm a fan of the Cleveland Browns. I went to Bowling Green State University... whose colors are brown and orange. We Falcons were always taught that Paul Brown adopted the Bowling Green color scheme of brown and orange for his new football team (the Browns held their first training camp at Bowling Green in 1946).

I used to buy this story, but I became skeptical especially since the St. Louis Browns also used brown and orange. My question is "when?" When did the Browns adopt the orange accent?

Secondly, did the St. Louis Browns use the "brownie" elf before or after 1946?

Lastly, did fans refer to the St. Louis Browns as the "Brownies" before 1946.

Just trying to gauge who stole whose traditions.

I love this forum... I'm sorry your team left town, I know how it feels.

[feldgrau1418]

It is perhaps no more than coincidence that the Cleveland Browns adopted the same color scheme (brown & orange) for their uniform trim as the St. Louis Browns had. I used to wonder about that at the time, since I thought that both teams had a striking ornamental appearance with their "duds".

The St. Louis Browns added orange trim to the uniforms in 1934, the same year that the team nickname "Browns" first appeared across the front of the jersey. Orange remained the colorful accent, either for outlining or shading letters and numerals and highlighting the piping and braid on caps, jerseys and pants, and was discontinued for 1952 and '53, when they went to solid brown script lettering, socks and caps with a white "StL".

In 1952 they put the Brownie elf on the left jersey sleeves and warmup jackets. This information is available in Marc Okkonen's book "Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century", a fantastic reference.

I can't say definitively when the team was first referred to as the "Brownies", but they were occasionally termed that when I first became a baseball fan in 1943, and I'd say this had been going on for a few decades prior to that. Perhaps someone on our forum with access to newspaper files can find out, as I'm sure the writers would have picked up on this fairly early.

I'm glad you brought this up.
Bob

[4evertribe]

Bob, thank you a lot. You may be correct that this maybe a striking coincidence. I know the Brownie Elf appeared on the very first Cleveland Browns football program in 1946. The Elf has been with the team since its inception (however, Art Modell ordered the Elf to be shelved during his entire tenure of ownership -- more bad ideas from Art).

I loved your term "colorful orange accent". I've always loved the brown and orange.

That's a heck of team to win 93 games in '22.

[feldgrau1418]

It is interesting that the Cleveland Browns had official depictions of an elf
on programs since their inception. When did Modell remove references to elves on the programs?

The St. Louis Browns were fairly regularly shown in sports cartoons as elves usually in a demeaning way, bringing up the rear up a league
assemblage of characters along with the A's and Senators. I doubt the St. Louis papers would have done this much since it would be detrimental to boosterism, but I sure remember it in the New York journals in the forties, as well as periodicals.

Bill Veeck brought the elf to the Browns' jerseys and the covers of the scorebook even in the face of it being already accepted as a symbol of the team's ineptitude. Perhaps it was simply one more step in the planned euthanizing of the franchise.

[4evertribe]

Modell removed all elfish references as soon as he bought the team. He thought it was childish. Before that, the elf was somewhat ubiquitous. New ownership (if you will) has brought back the elf, which I love and think gives the team an identity.

I know the logo, but what did the Crusader represent?

Weren't the Cardinals of the NL originally called the Browns?

I'm only 37, if you don't mind, how old are y'all and how did you become Browns' fans in a Cardinal town? (Probably the old man I bet).

[disgrig]

The Crusader logo for the Browns is a copy of the statue of Saint Louis (the French crusading king) that sits atop Art Hill in Forest Park (right outside the entrance to the Art Museum). In the 1930s, William DeWitt (I) had a contest for fans to design a logo for the Browns. One fan submitted crusader on horseback image and won the contest. The rest is history, as they say.

To answer the age question, I am youngster, too, relatively speaking. I am the same age as the "4evertribe" poster.

[disgrig]

And info on the statue:

http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/parks/forestpark/history/statue.html

[minorfan]

I'm just thinking - if the NBA had a basketball team named the Browns - would they eventually re-locate to Baltimore too?

[feldgrau1418]

Modell removed all elfish references as soon as he bought the team. He thought it was childish. Before that, the elf was somewhat ubiquitous. New ownership (if you will) has brought back the elf, which I love and think gives the team an identity.

I know the logo, but what did the Crusader represent?

Weren't the Cardinals of the NL originally called the Browns?

I'm only 37, if you don't mind, how old are y'all and how did you become Browns' fans in a Cardinal town? (Probably the old man I bet).

The Crusader question has been addressed most astutely by Disgrig, many thanks. In 1882 there was a NL franchise in St. Louis that I believe was nicknamed the Brown Stockings. The 19th Century is not my area (a bit before my time, but not that much). Maybe someone has the history down on this.

I became smitten (I think that's what my mother termed it) with baseball as an 8 year old in 1943, a happy diversion from WW-2, and decided the Browns were my team the following year. The film "Going My Way" helped clinch it. Since I lived in the New York metro area I didn't find any else to share my interest in the Browns. My father was a bit bemused by the whole thing, but still took my to see them play in Yankee Stadium.

A couple of years later my interest in the Browns began to flag, particularly after I saw Joe Di Maggio play for the Yankees. After my favorite Browns players all went to contending teams I still followed the team's (mis) fortunes and have this same nostalgic feeling today. But I quit being a Yankee fan years ago.

[4evertribe]

I'm just thinking - if the NBA had a basketball team named the Browns - would they eventually re-locate to Baltimore too?

They'd have to, wouldn't they?

[4evertribe]

This is really interesting talking to St. Louis Browns' fans. If the Cleveland Browns hadn't come back I doubt I would pay much attention to pro-football... I didn't for three years and lived. But to lose your baseball team... gee, could anything be more sad?

It would be a dirty shame.

[minorfan]

I was 4 when the Senators moved to Texas, so I went thru that misery at an early age. Yeah, it was nice that the Orioles understood and embraced regional marketing (oh, and had just won 3 pennants in a row - now we get to root for a really good team for a change) and the Redskins and Bullets became competitive - but deep-down it just wasn't the same that DC wasn't a "Major League" city.

Of course, now I get to feel guilty everytime MLB network shows an old Expos game...

[EdTarbusz]

All right, first off I'm a fan of the Cleveland Browns. I went to Bowling Green State University... whose colors are brown and orange. We Falcons were always taught that Paul Brown adopted the Bowling Green color scheme of brown and orange for his new football team (the Browns held their first training camp at Bowling Green in 1946).

I used to buy this story, but I became skeptical especially since the St. Louis Browns also used brown and orange. My question is "when?" When did the Browns adopt the orange accent?

Secondly, did the St. Louis Browns use the "brownie" elf before or after 1946?

Lastly, did fans refer to the St. Louis Browns as the "Brownies" before 1946.

Just trying to gauge who stole whose traditions.

I love this forum... I'm sorry your team left town, I know how it feels.

Do you know when the Cleveland Browns started wearing brown and orange? I've never seen a color pic of the AAFC or early NFL Browns. In every picture that I've ever seen of Otto Graham, it looks like he is wearing a white helmet. Maybe the Cleveland Browns copied the St Louis Browns colors.

[4evertribe]

The Browns' colors have always been orange and brown. The helmets were originally white. The original 1946 numbers on the jerseys were brown with orange drop shadows. They've always had the orange piping on the pants and socks.

Like I mentioned, I always thought Paul Brown borrowed the colors from Bowling Green State U., but who knows? Maybe he borrowed the colors subliminally?

[EdTarbusz]

The Browns' colors have always been orange and brown. The helmets were originally white. The original 1946 numbers on the jerseys were brown with orange drop shadows. They've always had the orange piping on the pants and socks.

Like I mentioned, I always thought Paul Brown borrowed the colors from Bowling Green State U., but who knows? Maybe he borrowed the colors subliminally?

Were brown and orange the colors of the Massillon Tigers?

[4evertribe]

Black and Orange.

I know of only Bowling Green and a high school in New York that also uses the brown and orange color scheme.

[Brownieand45sfan]

There was a St. Louis Browns professional softball team in 1973 (they were the champions!) but the league went defunct the same year. If they ever revive the league, and it moves to Baltimore, the jinx will be complete!

BTW ... as a small measure of revenge ... The St. Louis Browns still maintain a .900 winning percentage in games vs. the Baltimore Orioles. A percentage that the Browns will undoubtedly maintain until the end of time. :dance



They'd have to, wouldn't they?

[Brownieand45sfan]

The baseball Browns wore orange and brown on their uniforms as early as 1908. Check the Dressed to the Nines site.

There was a Brownie soda with an elf as early as 1929. I doubt a Detroit-based soda would allude to a St. Louis team. http://www.retroplanet.com/blog/soda-pop-of-the-week/brownie-root-beer/ Methinks the word "brownie" has some meaning in the word of mythology equivalent to "elf".

In a parallel universe: the Cardinals move to Baltimore and become the Orioles; the football Browns move from Cleveland to St. Louis; the Chicago Cardinals stay put; St. Louis has the Browns and the GridBrowns; St. Louisans hate Art Modell instead of Bill Bidwill.

[feldgrau1418]

[QUOTE=Brownieand45sfan;1605568][LIST=1]
The baseball Browns wore orange and brown on their uniforms as early as 1908. Check the Dressed to the Nines site.

I just don't know about the illustration in the "Dressed to the Nines" site, which shows what could be pale orange or light brown piping around the button flap of the jersey for the 1908 Browns. These illustrations are directly from Marc Okkonen's book, where he states "In 1934 the St. Louis Browns . . . . introduced the most innovative and colorful uniforms to date for the franchise. Among the more noteworthy changes were the introduction of orange as a secondary trim color and the display of the team nickname BROWNS on the home jersey for the first time. The new caps were solid brown with an orange ST-L monogram on the front. New multi-color (brown and orange) piping was used generously on both shirt and trousers, including around the belt tunnels. The wide brown stripe on the socks included an orange border stripe above and below. The brown fancy lettering of BROWNS and ST. LOUIS on the jersey front also incorporated an orange accent piping."

I recall discussing the problem of colors with the author in the late 1980's when he was working on this book, and he told me that on many of the pre-1920 uniforms no example exists to determine secondary colors, and for those that do some colors have faded. I believe that's the case with this example. I do not think the 1908 Browns jersey had orange piping. I go with 1934 as the intro year for that color, until someone comes up with an unfaded example of a 1908 Browns jersey that refutes this.

[Brownieand45sfan]

[QUOTE=Brownieand45sfan;1605568][LIST=1]
The baseball Browns wore orange and brown on their uniforms as early as 1908. Check the Dressed to the Nines site.

I just don't know about the illustration in the "Dressed to the Nines" site, which shows what could be pale orange or light brown piping around the button flap of the jersey for the 1908 Browns. These illustrations are directly from Marc Okkonen's book, where he states "In 1934 the St. Louis Browns . . . . introduced the most innovative and colorful uniforms to date for the franchise. Among the more noteworthy changes were the introduction of orange as a secondary trim color and the display of the team nickname BROWNS on the home jersey for the first time. The new caps were solid brown with an orange ST-L monogram on the front. New multi-color (brown and orange) piping was used generously on both shirt and trousers, including around the belt tunnels. The wide brown stripe on the socks included an orange border stripe above and below. The brown fancy lettering of BROWNS and ST. LOUIS on the jersey front also incorporated an orange accent piping."nd orange.

I recall discussing the problem of colors with the author in the late 1980's when he was working on this book, and he told me that on many of the pre-1920 uniforms no example exists to determine secondary colors, and for those that do some colors have faded. I believe that's the case with this example. I do not think the 1908 Browns jersey had orange piping. I go with 1934 as the intro year for that color, until someone comes up with an unfaded example of a 1908 Browns jersey that refutes this.

I appreciate your attention to detail and to solid proof. It is of course widely-accepted among merchandisers that the 1908 Browns home cap was Brown and orange. The Browns colors in the 20s however, again from replicas, seems to indicate a stolid brown and white. I guess a question that might be usefully asked is, "Were there any teams by 1908 that used more than one color and white (or black)". If there were none, this relegates the supposed 1908 brown and orange cap to the ranks of suspected apocrypha.

[feldgrau1418]

[QUOTE=feldgrau1418;1605648]

I appreciate your attention to detail and to solid proof. It is of course widely-accepted among merchandisers that the 1908 Browns home cap was Brown and orange. The Browns colors in the 20s however, again from replicas, seems to indicate a stolid brown and white. I guess a question that might be usefully asked is, "Were there any teams by 1908 that used more than one color and white (or black)". If there were none, this relegates the supposed 1908 brown and orange cap to the ranks of suspected apocrypha.

The retro replica makers seem to be a fairly recent phenomenon (since the Seventies) and I wouldn't put much credence in the accuracy of their products compared to originals. Perhaps a couple tried, but others more likely gave in to fantasy.

As a general rule, multiple colors to accent uniforms didn't come into play until the patriotic schemes of WW-1, so an orange fleur-de-lis on a 1908 Browns cap (if that's what is was) falls well outside the range of probability for that period.

While it could never be 100% (what is?) the scholarship of the book "Baseball Uniforms of the Twentieth Century" hasn't as yet been touched for scope, depth and accuracy.

[kopper65]

Great thread! My dad was struck by a car when he was a child, I think it was 1927 or 1928 when my dad was about five years old. Turns out it was the owner of the Browns behind the wheel. The big bumper of the car struck my dad in the face, leaving him with a permanent scar that was visible throughout his life. The Browns' owner was very sorry for what had happened and wanted to make up for it by making my dad a bat boy, but alas, he was too young. Later, my dad played baseball in Manchester, MO (where my family settled after arriving from Germany in the 1850s) with Hank Arft. They were good friends. Hank would later sign with the Browns and play a few years for them. Despite all of this, I think my dad was still primarily a Cards fan.

My wife's family, however, were all Browns fans, including her grandfather who was a streetcar operator in St. Louis. Her dad still roots for the Orioles to this day, and he was just a young child when the Browns left town.

kopper

[Brownieand45sfan]

>>Her dad still roots for the Orioles to this day, and he was just a young child when the Browns left town.

I had a family member like that too. Just goes to show that who you root for is inextricably bound up with who you hate. The Orioles were still in the same state of "homeostasis" with the other 7 AL teams as were the Browns. When your rooting interest leaves town, it is not easy to stop hating the Yankees and the Tigers and start hating the Dodgers and the Cubs. Not to mention, a lot of Browns fans hated the Cardinals for good reason since the Cardinal fans had been lording it over the Browns fans for so long.

[kopper65]

Just goes to show that who you root for is inextricably bound up with who you hate.
No, I don't think it's that at all. It had nothing to do with who they rooted against. They were just never Cardinals fans. Just because the Browns left town didn't mean they were going to start rooting for the Cards. Instead their allegiance to the team stayed with them to Baltimore. I'm not sure I would have done the same thing (impossible to tell since I wasn't around back then), but I can respect the fact that they're still fans.

[Brownieand45sfan]

It's a little of both, but it's a lot more of the hate thing than you're allowing. They could have become Cards fans. In fact most did. Staying an Orioles fan took either extreme loyalty or hatred of Yanks b/c ownership was gone plus more than half the Browns in 54. By mid 55 They were *all* gone. New colors, new manager, new name, they left all the memorabilia behind, new front office (except for scout Jim Russo) and a healthy 900 miles away. What else was there to draw fans' interest in such a team? When you could go right back down to the same ballpark you loved and watch a home-town team. It's not a question of "Not respecting the fact that they're still fans". I respect them too. A helluva lot. I just think it's a hard and rare thing to do that and especially to keep it up for more than a few years. There has to be something driving that at a gut, emotional level. I wonder if there are any Browns/O's fans still alive? Theoretically, there should be. An eight-year old in 1953 is still in his early 60s.
No, I don't think it's that at all. It had nothing to do with who they rooted against. They were just never Cardinals fans. Just because the Browns left town didn't mean they were going to start rooting for the Cards. Instead their allegiance to the team stayed with them to Baltimore. I'm not sure I would have done the same thing (impossible to tell since I wasn't around back then), but I can respect the fact that they're still fans.

[4evertribe]

I have never rooted for the Ravens... and in fact loathed them for some time. I'm over it now... and they are just another team. Of course, I root for any team that has the chance to beat Pittsburgh. I find these topics sad.