Your Own Hall of Fame

[Hammerin Hank]

Mine would be much more exclusive...

(players only)
Hank Aaron
Cap Anson
Ernie Banks
George Brett
Lou Brock
Dan Brouthers
Roberto Clemente
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Ed Delahanty
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Hank Greenberg
Harry Heilmann
Rickey Henderson
Rogers Hornsby
Reggie Jackson
Al Kaline
Harmon Killebrew
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Mark McGwire
Paul Molitor
Eddie Murray
Stan Musial
Mel Ott
Cal Ripken Jr.
Brooks Robinson
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose
Babe Ruth
Mike Schmidt
Al Simmons
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Bob Uecker
Honus Wagner
Ted Williams
Dave Winfield
Carl Yastrzemski



Pete Alexander
Bert Blyleven
Mordecai Brown
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Whitey Ford
Pud Galvin
Bob Gibson
Lefty Gomez
Rich Gossage
Lefty Grove
Ron Guidry
Fergie Jenkins
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourn
Ed Reulbach
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Lee Smith
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Mickey Welch
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn
Cy Young

[Eddie Collins]

How can you possibly justify choosing Lee Smith while leaving out both Berra and Bench?

[Hammerin Hank]

Look at their stats and compare them to everyone else on that list. Berra is 59th all-time in homeruns, 49th in RBI, and in the thousandths in batting average. Bench is 39th in homeruns, 60th in RBI, and had a .267 batting average. Smith not only holds the record for career saves but has a big lead.

[Eddie Collins]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
Look at their stats and compare them to everyone else on that list. Berra is 59th all-time in homeruns, 49th in RBI, and in the thousandths in batting average. Bench is 39th in homeruns, 60th in RBI, and had a .267 batting average. Smith not only holds the record for career saves but has a big lead.

BERRA AND BENCH WERE CATCHERS! You have to respect their numbers accordingly.

[Hammerin Hank]

I won't take sympathy on them for what position they played. The HOF is for what the players accomplished, not what they could've accomplished according to what position they played.

[Eddie Collins]

Sympathy?

Nevermind, I don't feel like arguing.

[Hammerin Hank]

You lose.:laugh

Anywho, you can out them in "Your Own Hall of Fame" like the title of the thread suggests. They don't deserve to be in mine.

[Steffo]

The hall of fame is achievments, but you must take into account it say FAME, FAMOUS, not the best number-putter-upper but recognized as one on an alltime team, bENCH CUTS THERE.

[Hammerin Hank]

The best "number-putter-upper" will also achieve a good amount of fame. Berra and Bench didn't put up good enough numbers and therefore don't have enough fame with me.

[Steffo]

So if your hall had no catchers (whcih is true) you'd be fine with it?

[Hammerin Hank]

Yes I would. But it won't last for long I'm sure.

[Steffo]

You must take into account catchers get beat up crouching, catching ball after ball, in the hot sun, every day, and you expect them to put up GREAT numbers? Could you? I'm sure had Bench played a different position he'd have 500 homers. Also take defense into account, a catchers game is catch pitch after pitch, hard picth after pitch, and Bench did that. Still, you give him absolutely no credit?

[Hammerin Hank]

Like I said, I won't take sympathy on them for what position they played. The HOF is for what the players accomplished, not what they could've accomplished according to what position they played. And why ask if I could do it? I'm not a professional baseball player. And how do you know how well he would've done if he played a different position? I will give him credit for what he has done but not be including him in my Hall of Fame.

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
Like I said, I won't take sympathy on them for what position they played. The HOF is for what the players accomplished, not what they could've accomplished according to what position they played. And why ask if I could do it? I'm not a professional baseball player. And how do you know how well he would've done if he played a different position? I will give him credit for what he has done but not be including him in my Hall of Fame.

He won two homer crowns. He was forced out of the game because he played catcher.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by Steffo
He won two homer crowns.


What's your point? This is for CAREER accomplishments.

He was forced out of the game because he played catcher.

Well, if he was good enough then they would've had him play a different position. Perhaps he wasn't a good enough fielder to play another position. Where does he have left to go? Nowhere. That could've been what forced him out of the game.

Or like 98% of other players, he may have just decided to retire.

[Steffo]

He was a good catcher, that was the position the Reds needded to fill, and he happened to be good at it. Also, does defense count in your thing, since he starred there as well. He didn't just "choose" to retire, he playd other poitions for a couple years before retiring due to injuries, he was forced out because he was played at catcher.

[Hammerin Hank]

There are a lot of great catchers. But compare their stats to anyone on my list, and I won't have to argue with you.

[Steffo]

They too were forced out due to injuries, Pudge rodrguez is getting injured, Mike Piazza. What catcher DOESNT?

[Hammerin Hank]

Players of every position get injured.

[Steffo]

But not as often as catchers, who must crouch every dy for 1.5 hours or more.

[Hammerin Hank]

So describe to me the injuries that Bench and Berra received and what they missed out on in their careers because of it. And be specific so that I can compare them to the rest on that list.

[Steffo]

I'm only making an argument for Bench, I can't get you with Berra.

First, all of the physical work of being a catcher whittled them down, here showing...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/benchjo01.shtml

At age twenty two, he hit 45 homers. Name two players who hit that many that early and weren't great? Two years later, age 24, he hit 40, this looks good doesn't it? According to the favorite toy, this early in his career, his chances of making 500 homers were...

51%, a half and half chance he's making the plateau. But this is early in his career, and unfortunately, this early, being a catcher go to him. After this he never hitmore that 35 homers, his numbers pretty much declining each year. No doubt, he was a great hitter, but he worked a while. His playing time at catcher dropped each year as well, which shows it was too demanding, he moved to outfield, third base, and first base, and he seemed to hit better from those positions. Being a catcher was what knockedhim from being a great player.

Also realize, he's the best fielding catcher ever to go along with it, and he deserves to be in the HOF.

[Hammerin Hank]

I don't care what catching did to his career. The bottom line is his stats are not good enough to be in MY Hall of Fame, not THE Hall of Fame.

[Steffo]

Stats Schmats, oh well, your HOF is yours...

[Baseball Guru]

Addie Joss
Al Barlick - Umpire
Al Kaline
Al Simmons
Al Spalding
Albert Belle
Alexander Cartwright Pioneer/Executive
Arky Vaughan
Babe Ruth
Ban Johnson - Pioneer/Executive
Bert Blyleven
Bill Dickey
Bill Foster -NL
Bill Klem - Umpire
Bill Mazeroski -Defense
Bill McGowan - Umpire
Bill Terry
Bill Veeck - Pioneer/Executive
Billy Evans
Billy Hamilton
Billy Williams
Biz Mackey -NL
Bob Caruthers
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Branch Rickey - Pioneer/Executive
Brooks Robinson -Defense
Buck Leonard
Bullet Rogan -NL
Cal Hubbard - Umpire
Cal Ripken
Candy Cummings - Pioneer/Executive
Cap Anson
Carl Hubbell
Carl Yastrzemski
Carlton Fisk
Casey Stengel
Charley Radbourn
Charlie Comiskey - Pioneer/Executive
Charlie Gehringer
Christy Mathewson
Clark Griffith - Pioneer/Executive
Connie Mack - Manager
Cool Papa Bell -NL
Cy Young
Dan Brouthers
Dave Winfield
Don Sutton
Duke Snider
Earl Averill
Earl Weaver - Manager
Early Wynn
Ed Barrow - Pioneer/Executive
Ed Delahanty
Ed Walsh
Eddie Collins
Eddie Mathews
Eddie Murray
Eddie Plank
Ernie Banks
Fergie Jenkins
Ford Frick - Pioneer/Executive
Frank Robinson
Frank Selee - Manager
Fred Clarke -MANAGER
Gary Carter
Gaylord Perry
George Brett
George Sisler
George Weiss - Pioneer/Executive
George Wright - Pioneer/Executive
Hank Aaron
Hank Greenberg
Happy Chandler - Pioneer/Executive
Harmon Killebrew
Harry Heilmann
Harry Wright - Pioneer/Executive
Heinie Manush
Henry Chadwick - Pioneer/Executive
Hilton Smith -NL
Honus Wagner
Hoyt Wilhelm
Hugh Duffy
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Burkett
Jim Bottomley
Jim Palmer
Jimmie Foxx
Jocko Conlan -UMPIRE
Joe DiMaggio
Joe Jackson
Joe Kelley
Joe McCarthy
Joe Morgan
Joe Sewell
Joe Williams -NL
John Clarkson
John McGraw - Manager
John Ward
Johnny Bench
Johnny Mize
Josh Gibson
Juan Marichal
Judy Johnson -NL
Keith Hernandez- Defense
Kenesaw Landis - Pioneer/Executive
Kid Nichols
King Kelly
Kirby Puckett
Larry MacPhail - Pioneer/Executive
Lee MacPhail - Pioneer/Executive
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Lefty O'Doul
Leon Day -NL
Lou Boudrea-Defense
Lou Brock
Lou Gehrig
Lou Whitaker
Luke Appling
Mark McGwire
Martin Dihigo -NL
Mel Ott
Mickey Cochrane
Mickey Mantle
Mickey Welch
Mike Schmidt
Monte Irvin
Mordecai Brown
Morgan Bulkeley - Pioneer/Executive
Nap Lajoie
Nestor Chylak - Umpire
Nolan Ryan
Oscar Charleston –NL
Ozzie Smith- Defense
Paul Molitor
Paul Waner
Pete Alexander
Pete Browning
Pete Rose
Phil Niekro
Pie Traynor
Pop Lloyd –NL
Pud Galvin
Rabbit Maranville
Ralph Kiner
Ray Dandridge -NL
Reggie Jackson
Roberto Clemente
Robin Yount
Rod Carew
Roger Bresnahan
Roger Connor
Rogers Hornsby
Roy Campanella.
Rube Foster –NL Manager
Rube Waddell
Ryne Sandberg
Sam Crawford
Sam Rice
Sam Thompson
Sandy Koufax
Satchel Paige
Sparky Anderson - Manager
Stan Musial
Steve Carlton
Ted Williams
Tim Keefe
Tom Connolly - Umpire
Tom Lasorda - Manager
Tom Seaver
Tom Yawkey - Pioneer/Executive
Tony Gwynn
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes -NL
Ty Cobb
Wade Boggs
Walter Alston - Manager
Walter Johnson
Warren Giles - Pioneer/Executive
Warren Spahn
Whitey Ford
Will Harridge - Pioneer/Executive
William Hulbert - Pioneer/Executive
Willie Keeler
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Willie Stargell
Willie Wells -NL
Yogi Berra

[Hammerin Hank]

Tell me the difference from that HOF and the real one.

[Steffo]

Not much..

A cuple extra players, but really not much difference.

[Baseball Guru]

We have some extra players that the HOF does not have including some extra Negro Leaguers as well as the baned players that I felt should be there and any player currently retired (no 5 year rule)
We also did not punish a player for not having 10 years of MLB service--IE: Bob Caruthers


We also put players in the Hall based on defensive merrit--IE: Hernandez, Maz, etc....

Honestly we did this list about a year and a half ago so I dont remember who from the Hall we actually ommitted...
Richie Ashburn, Jake Beckley and Dave Bancroft are a few that come to mind.....


Again, just a list we put together a few years ago...It's not perfect but it's who we feel should be in....

[Baseball Guru]

Others not in:

Jim Bunning
Max Carey
Stan Coveleski
George Davis
Larry Doby

[Eddie Collins]

I find it extremely hard to belive that there hasn't been a great catcher in over 120 years of baseball. I refuse to belive that Lee Smith, who had longevity(not too many great seasons), could be more valuable to his teams than someone like Bench, Campanella, or Berra.

Oh well.:(

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Eddie Collins
I find it extremely hard to belive that there hasn't been a great catcher in over 120 years of baseball. I refuse to belive that Lee Smith, who had longevity(not too many great seasons), could be more valuable to his teams than someone like Bench, Campanella, or Berra.

Oh well.:(

He goes by stats, not valubleness.

I realized, it's the hall of FAME, why not have Bill Buckner, Harvey Haddix, Don Larsen, and Roger Maris in for their fame?

[McNick]

Hank - just curious how you could leave Berra and Bench out yet include Ron Guidry in your HOF....

Also, why not Joe Jackson if you let Pete Rose in?

[Hammerin Hank]

Pete Rose holds several records. The only reason why Joe Jackson might be in my HOF would be because of his batting average, and just one thing isn't enough.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by Steffo
He goes by stats, not valubleness.

That's exactly how I would've responded to that.

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
Pete Rose holds several records. The only reason why Joe Jackson might be in my HOF would be because of his batting average, and just one thing isn't enough.

We're both curious about Guidry....

[Hammerin Hank]

Guidry IS in because of one stat but it's one of the most important for a pitcher: win%. Although, he did do it with the Spankees....

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
Guidry IS in because of one stat but it's one of the most important for a pitcher: win%. Although, he did do it with the Spankees....

But Joe Jackson doesn't get in on one stat......:rolleyes:

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Steffo
But Joe Jackson doesn't get in on one stat......:rolleyes:


On one of the most important for a hitter, batting average.

[Hammerin Hank]

It was my decision and I made it.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
It was my decision and I made it.

Look at the eras they played in too. A lot of batters in Jackson's time had high batting averages like that. But win% doesn't change by era.

[Steffo]

True, we were just "questioning you" to see if we could change your opinion, I personally have run out of arguments and will stop, and I do respect your list, we just felt "fuzzy' on some details.

[Hammerin Hank]

I enjoy a good argument (even though I am terrible at arguing). I was ready for it too.:)

[Steffo]

Originally posted by Hank Aaron
I enjoy a good argument (even though I am terrible at arguing). I was ready for it too.:)

Ditto on every point.

[Gingerkid]

I put in the Black Sox because they symbolize the fact that heroes are just famous humans. Besides they rocked on the field.

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by Gingerkid
Besides they rocked on the field.

While I'm against any of the Black Sox getting into Cooperstown, if any of them ever do that should be written on their H.O.F. plaque.

[four tool player]

Super happy moderator seems to want only offense in his hall of fame--need we remind him of the Yankees losing a world series in which they outscored the Pirates about 10-2 in the games they won but lost the series anyway? (Mazeroski's HR in the seventh):p
I'll take a balanced set of players anytime

[four tool player]

While I'm against the Black Sox getting into the Hall, if they do it should be noted on their plaques--The Commissioner

I agree, but I also want to see racist on some plaques. I do not understand why throwing games is worse than blatant racism. Both effect and affect:D the integrity of the game

[drillerman]

is nolan ryan in

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by four tool player
While I'm against the Black Sox getting into the Hall, if they do it should be noted on their plaques--The Commissioner

I agree, but I also want to see racist on some plaques. I do not understand why throwing games is worse than blatant racism. Both effect and affect:D the integrity of the game

If you are going to quote me, then please quote me correctly.

The exact quote was "While I'm against any of the Black Sox getting into Cooperstown, if any of them ever do that should be written on their H.O.F. plaque." That was in reference to Gingerkid's comment "Besides they rocked on the field" as I noted by using his quote. So, when you place the two comments together what I was saying in essence is that their Hall of Fame plaques should read "Besides they rocked on the field". My comment has nothing do with their gambling exploits.

[four tool player]

Sorry for the misquote, I can't pop two things up on the screen and can't seem to cut and paste a quote to my reply. If someone can tell me how to do either one, I promise not to misaquote ever ever ever again:(

[The Commissioner]

That's quite alright it happens. No hard feelings and no harm done.

To quote someone simply hit the quote button on the bottom of the post that you would like to quote.(Button on the far right) What they wrote should appear at the top of your post in bold. You can delete parts of their post if you'd like, but leave the stuff in brackets at the begining and end of their post for it to show up correctly. Then you can type your response underneath. Happy posting.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by four tool player
Super happy moderator seems to want only offense in his hall of fame--need we remind him of the Yankees losing a world series in which they outscored the Pirates about 10-2 in the games they won but lost the series anyway? (Mazeroski's HR in the seventh):p
I'll take a balanced set of players anytime

I do believe I listed pitchers as well.

[BoSox Rule]

BoSox Rule's Baseball Hall of Fame

Aaron, Hank
Alexander, Pete
Anson, Cap
Aparicio, Luis
Appling, Luke
Averill, Earl
Banks, Ernie
Bell, Cool Papa (don't know if i did that right haha)
Bench, Johnny
Berra, Yogi
Blylevan, Bert
Bottomley, Jim
Boudreau, Lou
Brett, George
Brock, Lou
Brouthers, Dan
Brown, Mordecai
Burkett, Jesse
Campanella, Roy
Carew, Rod
Cartlon, Steve
Carter, Gary
Cepeda, Orlanda
Charleston, Oscar
Clarke, Fred
Clarkson, John
Clemente, Roberto
Cobb, Ty
Cochrane, Mickey
Collins, Eddie
Collins, Jimmy
Combs, Earle
Connor, Roger
Coveleski, Stan
Crawford, Sam
Cronin, Joe
Cuyler, Kiki
Dean, Dizzy
Delahanty, Ed
Dickey, Bill
Dimaggio, Joe
Doby, Larry
Doerr, Bobby
Drysdale, Don
Duffy, Hugh
Feller, Bob
Fingers, Rollie
Fisk, Carlton
Ford, Whitey
Foxx, Jimmie
Galvin, Pud
Gehrig, Lou
Gehringer, Charlie
Gibson, Bob
Gibson, Josh
Greenberg, Hank
Grove, Lefty
Hamilton, Billy
Hooper, Harry
Hornsby, Rogers
Hubbell, Carl
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Joe
Jackson, Reggie
Johnson, Walter
Kaline, Al
Keefe, Tim
Killebrew, Harmon
Kiner, Ralph
Koufax, Sandy
Lajoie, Nap
Lazzeri, Tony
Lloyd, Pop
Mantle, Mickey
Marichal, Juan
Mathews, Eddie
Matthewson, Christy
Mays, Willie
McCovey, Willie
Murray, Eddie
Musial, Stan
Nichols, Kid
Niekro, Phil
Ott, Mell
Paige, Satchel
Perez, Tony
Perry, Gaylord
Puckett, Kirby
Radbourn, Charles
Reese, Pee Wee
Rice, Jim
Rizzuto, Phil
Robinson, Brooks
Robinson, Frank
Robinson, Jackie
Rose, Pete
Ruffing, Red
Ruth, Babe
Ryan, Nolan
Schmidt, Mike
Seaver, Tom
Sisler, George
Slaughter, Enos
Smith, Ozzie
Spahn, Warren
Speaker, Tris
Stargell, Willie
Stearns, Turkey
Sutton, Don
Vaughan, Arky
Wagner, Honus
Waner, Paul
Williams, Joe
Williams, Ted
Wilson, Hack
Winfield, Dave
Yastrzemski, Carl
Young, Cy
Yount, Robin

[four tool player]

Originally posted by The Commissioner
That's quite alright it happens. No hard feelings and no harm done.

To quote someone simply hit the quote button on the bottom of the post that you would like to quote.(Button on the far right) What they wrote should appear at the top of your post in bold. You can delete parts of their post if you'd like, but leave the stuff in brackets at the begining and end of their post for it to show up correctly. Then you can type your response underneath. Happy posting.

THANKS--it obviously works

[Brad Harris]

Since we can't (realistically) kick people out of the Hall of Fame, I'll "adopt" the existing one, with some additions.

I'd vote for all of the following who've been eligible in the past:

Doc Adams, Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Bob Caruthers, Bill Dahlen, Dwight Evans, Jack Glasscock, Joe Gordon, Goose Gossage, Bobby Grich, Stan Hack, Keith Hernandez, Carl Mays, Marvin Miller, Walter O'Malley, Dan Quisenberry, Jim Rice, Jimmy Ryan, Ryne Sandberg, Ron Santo, Ted Simmons, George Steinbrenner, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell, George Van Haltren and Lou Whitaker.

There's a few others who are on the fence for me, but that's the "lock" vote.

Below is the list of players I could vote for, in their upcoming years of eligibility:

2004 - Dennis Eckersley, Paul Molitor
2005 - Wade Boggs
2006 - none
2007 - Tony Gwynn, Mark McGwire, Cal Ripken Jr.
2008 - Tim Raines

Active players (or players who haven't "announced" their retirement yet) for whom I'd lose no sleep in voting are:

Roberto Alomar, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Ken Griffey Jr., Rickey Henderson, Randy Johnson, Barry Larkin, Greg Maddux, Edgar Martinez, Pedro Martinez, Fred McGriff, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa and Frank Thomas.

[The Commissioner]

Jaime Navarro isn't getting your vote in 2006? And you call yourself a baseball fan?

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by The Commissioner
Jaime Navarro isn't getting your vote in 2006? And you call yourself a baseball fan?

Etheridge2 is supporting Jack Morris' 3.90 ERA. Maybe he'll take up Navarro's banner? :laugh

[Cougar]

Did you just miss Lou Whitaker, Chance, or is he not on your list? Without making a full-blown case for him, just having gotten to know you on these boards, Sweet Lou seems like he'd be your kind of guy. Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by Chancellor
Since we can't (realistically) kick people out of the Hall of Fame, I'll "adopt" the existing one, with some additions.

I'd vote for all of the following who've been eligible in the past:

Doc Adams, Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Bob Caruthers, Bill Dahlen, Dwight Evans, Jack Glasscock, Joe Gordon, Goose Gossage, Bobby Grich, Stan Hack, Keith Hernandez, Carl Mays, Marvin Miller, Walter O'Malley, Dan Quisenberry, Jim Rice, Jimmy Ryan, Ryne Sandberg, Ron Santo, Ted Simmons, George Steinbrenner, Bruce Sutter, Alan Trammell and George Van Haltren.

There's a few others who are on the fence for me, but that's the "lock" vote.

Below is the list of players I could vote for, in their upcoming years of eligibility:

2004 - Dennis Eckersley, Paul Molitor
2005 - Wade Boggs
2006 - none
2007 - Tony Gwynn, Mark McGwire, Cal Ripken Jr.
2008 - Tim Raines

Active players (or players who haven't "announced" their retirement yet) for whom I'd lose no sleep in voting are:

Roberto Alomar, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Ken Griffey Jr., Rickey Henderson, Randy Johnson, Barry Larkin, Greg Maddux, Edgar Martinez, Pedro Martinez, Fred McGriff, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa and Frank Thomas.

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by Cougar
Did you just miss Lou Whitaker, Chance, or is he not on your list? Without making a full-blown case for him, just having gotten to know you on these boards, Sweet Lou seems like he'd be your kind of guy. Or am I wrong?

Yes. He's not a "personal favorite," but I do support his induction. He'd simply slipped my mind. But there's no doubt he's qualified. I've made the necessary correction to my earlier post. Thanks.

[Fightin Phil 53]

Dear Hammerin' Hank : Reviewing your Hall of Fame selections, I noticed that you don't have a catcher on the team. Was this an oversight ? Campanella,Bench,Berra,Cochrane,Dickey unworthy ?

[Hammerin Hank]

Argh! I went over this already. Look back in the thread.

[drillerman]

Hank what have you got your self into.

[Fightin Phil 53]

Dear Hammerin' Hank.....No offense,but you couldn't have a lineup with that HOF. Especially since you are missing the most important positional player on a team. All 5 of the players I mention are in the No Brainer Hall Of Fame. You have some tough standards,my man ! Which catchers do you think,since you mentioned that this catcherless issue was to be resolved in time,will make it? I am a little curious as to which catcher IS better from the current catcher-pool than John Bench was.

[Hammerin Hank]

Well, when I made my HoF, it was purely on offense, which is why no catcher made it. If I included defense then of course there's be a few catchers in there. But defensive stats are really inaccurate so the only way I could consider it would be if I actually saw those catchers play. Being born in the 80's, I haven't had that opportunity.

[Fightin Phil 53]

.....Hammerin Hank : Based on the comment that you made :Look at their stats and compare them to everyone else on that list. Berra is 59th all-time in homeruns, 49th in RBI, and in the thousandths in batting average. Bench is 39th in homeruns, 60th in RBI, and had a .267 batting average.....This logic would exclude everyone below Berra and Bench’s statistical ranking in home runs and batting average,a criteria that YOU set. Every batter that is IN your HOF superceded these two in the HR/RBI area ? Just a question....I guess I’m more curious as to how Johnny Bench doesn’t make anyone’s HOF. However,I respect your opinion and I am not “breaking your bees”.....FP53

[Hammerin Hank]

Homeruns and RBI aren't the only stats I based my criteria on.

[Baseball Guru]

I know you are taking a lot of heat over catchers but there are some other names missing that I was just curious as to why they were left off???

Billy Hamilton??
His .344 avg is 8th alltime along with his obp% of .455 which is 4th alltime....
Other career #'s are his walks(48th), SB's(3rd) and runs(24th)

Willie Keeler???
.341 average, top 40 alltime in runs, hits and sb's...

Nap Lajoie???
You have Gehringer in there and I would think Lajoie could crack your HOF...
13th alltime in hits, 24th in rbi's, 21st in average, 6th in doubles ...
If Charlie made it, IMO, Lajoie should have made it...

Of course, that is JMO....

Fun to debate stuff like this....:)

[Steffo]

Agin, If you's like, I can run how good an offensive catcher Bench was if you'd like, and he might make the hall then.....

[Zito75]

I can't believe Bench didn't make the cut just because he's a catcher. Good thing he REALLY is in the hall. There's no point to argue this any further.

[Hammerin Hank]

First, the reason why he was not included was not because he's a catcher. Second, lern how to read through posts before making comments because I already justified my decision numerous times.

[Baseball Guru]

Originally posted by Hammerin Hank
First, the reason why he was not included was not because he's a catcher. Second, lern how to read through posts before making comments because I already justified my decision numerous times.


Was that in reference to the catchers or my post asking about other players not included?

[blighty baseball bloke]

Hank,

Did you really think long and hard about this list ? I'd be interested to know why Lefty Gomez is in and Addie Joss is not.

Gomez - 189 Wins, 3.34 ERA, worst WHIP in the HOF (1.35)

Joss - 160 Wins, 1.89 ERA, best WHIP ever (0.97)

BBB

[razors]

Originally posted by Hammerin Hank
Homeruns and RBI aren't the only stats I based my criteria on.


Dear HH.

Very good, never liked to be measured by stats anytway...but...i was noticing you didn't have a catcher in your HoF...please consider my credentials and perhaps add me as a compromise - being as I'm a catcher in the Hall with bad offensive and defensive stats - and maybe you'll stop having to 're-explain' yourself after every post. Call me.

Regards,
Bob Uecker.


;)

[Hammerin Hank]

Bob Uecker, I just edited my list...You're in!!

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by Baseball Guru
Was that in reference to the catchers or my post asking about other players not included?

That response was for Zito75.

[Hammerin Hank]

Originally posted by blighty baseball bloke
Hank,

Did you really think long and hard about this list ? I'd be interested to know why Lefty Gomez is in and Addie Joss is not.

Gomez - 189 Wins, 3.34 ERA, worst WHIP in the HOF (1.35)

Joss - 160 Wins, 1.89 ERA, best WHIP ever (0.97)

BBB

It had to do with the era they played in. Joss played at a time when you could pitch in many more games in a season and didn't play very long. Wouldn't he not even make the ten year requirement? Maybe I stick to my rules in my HoF.

[blighty baseball bloke]

"Maybe I stick to my rules in my hall of fame"

Based on your previous curt and ill thought out replies to others, I thought you'd respond like that.

Maybe without you applying a little more reasoning, maybe I stick to my initial thought that your list has no credibility. I'm unsure why you posted your list on this board and have subsequently responded so petulantly when questioned about it. I assume you originally posted to engender discussion rather than say "this is my list and if anyone questions it, it's my list and what I say goes"?

This board is usually very civil. Have you recently come over from MLB.com ?

Very curious.

BBB

[Hammerin Hank]

I like to stir up arguments. The problem is I'm not good at arguing. Would you like me to leave or are you able to tolerate a few "curt and ill" responses?

[blighty baseball bloke]

LMAO!

Don't leave Hank - your ill judged and intemperate responses in the midst of so much rational and polite discussion reminds me what an oasis of calm this bulletin board is in comparison with the "official" MLB bulletin board.

You're brave putting up your list, and you've a good point on Joss not playing 10 seasons - but come on, Lefty Gomez.......!

BBB

[NOMAR22]

Mine would be much more exclusive...

(players only)
Hank Aaron
Cap Anson
Ernie Banks
George Brett
Lou Brock
Dan Brouthers
Roberto Clemente
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Ed Delahanty
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Hank Greenberg
Harry Heilmann
Rickey Henderson
Rogers Hornsby
Reggie Jackson
Al Kaline
Harmon Killebrew
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Mark McGwire
Paul Molitor
Eddie Murray
Stan Musial
Mel Ott
Cal Ripken Jr.
Brooks Robinson
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose
Babe Ruth
Mike Schmidt
Al Simmons
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Bob Uecker
Honus Wagner
Ted Williams
Dave Winfield
Carl Yastrzemski



Pete Alexander
Bert Blyleven
Mordecai Brown
Steve Carlton
John Clarkson
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Whitey Ford
Pud Galvin
Bob Gibson
Lefty Gomez
Rich Gossage
Lefty Grove
Ron Guidry
Fergie Jenkins
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourn
Ed Reulbach
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Lee Smith
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Mickey Welch
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn
Cy Young


You are very bright to include Ron Guidry in your HOF.

[125osprey]

My Hall of Fame is similar to the one in Cooperstown except I would exclude the following:


Addie Joss (P) - 1978
Frank "Home Run" Baker (3B) - 1955
Dave Bancroft (SS) - 1971
Chief Bender (P) - 1953
Roger Bresnahan (C) - 1945
Jim Bunning (P) - 1996
Max Carey (CF) - 1961
Frank Chance (1B - Mgr) - 1946
Jack Chesbro (P) - 1946
Jimmy Collins (3B) - 1945
Earle Combs (CF) - 1970
Candy Cummings (P) - 1939
George Davis (SS) - 1998
Dizzy Dean (P) - 1953
Larry Doby (CF) - 1998
Johnny Evers (2B) - 1946
Buck Ewing (C) - 1939
Red Faber (P) - 1964
Rick Ferrell (C) - 1984
Elmer Flick (RF) - 1963
Chick Hafey (LF) - 1971
Jesse Haines (P) - 1970
Harry Hooper (RF) - 1971
Waite Hoyt (P) - 1969
Catfish Hunter (P) - 1987
Monte Irvin (OF) - 1973T
ravis Jackson (SS) - 1982
Hughie Jennings (SS - Mgr) - 1945 *
George Kell (3B) - 1983
George Kelly (1B) - 1973
King Kelly (RF) - 1945
Joe Kelley (LF) - 1971
Tony Lazzeri (2B) - 1991
Freddie Lindstrom (3B) - 1976
Ted Lyons (P) - 1955
Rabbit Maranville (SS) - 1954
Rube Marquard (P) - 1971
Bill Mazeroski (2B) - 2001
Tommy McCarthy (RF) - 1946
Bid McPhee (2B) - 2000
Herb Pennock (P) - 1948
Pee Wee Reese (SS) - 1984
Tony Perez (1B) - 2000
Eppa Rixey (P) - 1963
Phil Rizzuto (SS) - 1994
Edd Roush (CF) - 1962
Ray Schalk (C) - 1955
Red Schoendienst (2B) - 1989
Enos Slaughter (RF) - 1985
Bruce Sutter (P) - 2006
Joe Tinker (SS) - 1946
Dazzy Vance (P) - 1955
Bobby Wallace (SS) - 1953
Lloyd Waner (CF) - 1967
Vic Willis (P) - 1995
Hack Wilson (CF) - 1979
Ross Youngs (RF) - 1972


I guess I am a bit strict. I had to say no to my favourite deadball era player, Elmer Flick. I also didn't include managers, executives or umpires. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to considering the Negro Leaguers because of the lack of statistical information. Reading about those guys will be a lot of fun.

I wish I had a way of evaluating the defensive skills of some of the excluded players. That type of information might sway me to include a few of them them in my personal hallowed halls.

I included:

George Van Haltren
Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Andre Dawson
Jim Rice
Dave Parker
Frank Thomas
Albert Belle
Dick Allen
Dale Murphy
Bert Blyleven

and:

Rickey Henderson
Tony Gwynn
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddox
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Roberto Alomar
Manny Rameriz
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Gary Sheffield
Mariano Rivera
Barry Bonds
Ken Griffey, Jr.

I am probably missing someone very obvious.

[runningshoes]

You are very bright to include Ron Guidry in your HOF.

But he's not so bright to exclude Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra

[538280]

My Hall of Fame is similar to the one in Cooperstown except I would exclude the following:

Frank "Home Run" Baker (3B) - 1955
Roger Bresnahan (C) - 1945
Max Carey (CF) - 1961
Jimmy Collins (3B) - 1945
George Davis (SS) - 1998
Larry Doby (CF) - 1998
Buck Ewing (C) - 1939
Monte Irvin (OF) - 1973T
Hughie Jennings (SS - Mgr) - 1945 *
King Kelly (RF) - 1945
Dazzy Vance (P) - 1955
Bobby Wallace (SS) - 1953


All of those guys definitely belong in, and I don't think there can be any argument otherwise. The ones in bold are players who beyond question belong in. Could you elaborate as to how you chose them as mistakes?

[vasprtsfn]

In my HOF, I would include players I saw play.

Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Robin Yount, Dave Winfield, Eddie Murray, Ozzie Smith, Jack Morris, Andre Dawson, Lee Smith, Ryne Sandberg, Wade Boggs, Paul Molitor, Dennis Eckersley, Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn.

[125osprey]

It was a hard call on a few players in my Hall of Fame. I didn't like excluding Cuyler, Flick, Wilson, Baker and a few others but I felt I had to be honest and make my induction list as tight as possible.

Frank "Home Run" Baker was a guy that I had to think hard about. I have no serious problems with his inclusion in Cooperstown (or with the other players you highlighted) but for induction into my Hall of Fame I decided to exclude him because he accrued less than 2000 hits and his batting average, while a respectable .302, wasn't spectacular. He did lead the league in homeruns four consecutive years and that is a noteworthy accomplishment.

Jimmy Collins had lesst han 2000 hits and batted slightly less than .300 while being an above-average third baseman. He did, however, manage 2 championship Boston teams. No reason to include him.

George Davis certainly accumulated a lot of hits but his average, while better than average, was still under .300 for his career. He played his best years before 1901 and had a couple of great years and appears to have been an above-average infielder. I see no reason to include him.

Larry Doby was a tough call. He just didn't put up the kind of numbers I am looking for in an outfielder. Of course, his pivotal role in baseball history should not be ignored. Including Jackie Robinson and excluding Doby, whose statistics are arguably superior, might be a bit hypocritical. I want Jackie in my Hall of Fame and it does seem unfair not to put Doby in there. I'll have to rethink this one.

Buck Ewing is a well-known 19th century player but simply doesn't have great numbers. Of course, teams back then played less than half the number of games they play now and it would therefore be almost impossible for Ewing to get the plate appearances he would need to generate a better hit total. His batting average (on 1625 hits) was .303 and his OBP was very small.

King Kelly's situation is similar to Buck Ewing's. I might have to reexamine these 19th century players. It does seem strange not to include King Kelly (he is one of the better known players, afterall) but I just could justify his inclusion based on my interpretation of the statistical evidence.

Dazzy Vance was a fantastic pitcher but 197 wins and a WHIP of 1.23 doesn't compel me to add him to my Hall of Fame. Of course his adjusted ERA of 125 was stellar. If he had managed to squeeze in three more seasons similar to his peak years I would gladly grant him inclusion.

I relied on baseball-reference.com for statistics. I also paid attention to the cool feature they have that lists similar players. I know it isn't an exact science but when, on Larry Doby's page, it says similar players include Raul Mondesi, Tim Salmon and Kirk Gibson, I feel justified in my decision.

[538280]

.
Frank "Home Run" Baker was a guy that I had to think hard about. I have no serious problems with his inclusion in Cooperstown (or with the other players you highlighted) but for induction into my Hall of Fame I decided to exclude him because he accrued less than 2000 hits and his batting average, while a respectable .302, wasn't spectacular. He did lead the league in homeruns four consecutive years and that is a noteworthy accomplishment.

You need to adjust for the era he played in. His era was a low offense era and the BAs were low. His .302 was a very good figure. He did have a short career, making him have less than 2000 hits, but his peak was outstanding, and he's by far the best hitter from third base until Eddie Mathews (more than half of baseball history). He's a first ballot quality HOFer.

Jimmy Collins had lesst han 2000 hits and batted slightly less than .300 while being an above-average third baseman. He did, however, manage 2 championship Boston teams. No reason to include him.

Again, you need to make era adjustments. The slightly below .300 BA is impressive given time and place. Collins was also way more than just an above average fielder. He was probably the best fielding 3Bman ever, given the spectrum jump. He revolutionized the way 3Bmen charge bunts. He may have been the second best hitting third baseman (behind Baker) in early baseball. At very least he's top 5, with his only real compeitiors being Heinie Groh, Heinie Zimmerman, and Denny Lyons. Collins was regarded as the best 3Bman of all time until the late 1940s and early 50s. Probably first ballot HOF matierial.

George Davis certainly accumulated a lot of hits but his average, while better than average, was still under .300 for his career. He played his best years before 1901 and had a couple of great years and appears to have been an above-average infielder. I see no reason to include him.

He was a great shortstop, has great longevity, and a great hitter for a shortstop. No reason to keep him out. For more info on Davis, I suggest you read The Politics of Glory.

Larry Doby was a tough call. He just didn't put up the kind of numbers I am looking for in an outfielder. Of course, his pivotal role in baseball history should not be ignored. Including Jackie Robinson and excluding Doby, whose statistics are arguably superior, might be a bit hypocritical. I want Jackie in my Hall of Fame and it does seem unfair not to put Doby in there. I'll have to rethink this one.

Doby is a classic underrated player, because he did everything very well but had no real outstanding skills. When adding up all those very good skills though it turns into a great player. Along with his pivotal role in baseball history, he's a top 15 CFer at least and an easy HOFer.

Buck Ewing is a well-known 19th century player but simply doesn't have great numbers. Of course, teams back then played less than half the number of games they play now and it would therefore be almost impossible for Ewing to get the plate appearances he would need to generate a better hit total. His batting average (on 1625 hits) was .303 and his OBP was very small.

His OBP was very small? .351 compared to .329 league? Please. Buck Ewing was a very good hitter (especially for a catcher), arguably the best defensive catcher of all time, and had a repuatation as the greatest player who ever lived up until Wagner. You have to remember they played less games in the 19th century, and the horrible catcher's equipment made it even harder for them to play games. Although the league was young, Ewing was 6th all time in games caught when he retired.

King Kelly's situation is similar to Buck Ewing's. I might have to reexamine these 19th century players. It does seem strange not to include King Kelly (he is one of the better known players, afterall) but I just could justify his inclusion based on my interpretation of the statistical evidence.

Your interpretation is wrong. Make sure you adjust his stats for the era he played in, then you'll see the light.

Dazzy Vance was a fantastic pitcher but 197 wins and a WHIP of 1.23 doesn't compel me to add him to my Hall of Fame. Of course his adjusted ERA of 125 was stellar. If he had managed to squeeze in three more seasons similar to his peak years I would gladly grant him inclusion.

Vance, relative to league, is the best strikeout pitcher and the best strikeout to walk ratio pitcher of all time. He had a great peak (look at those ERA+!). The only knock is the won-lost record, but Vance pitched for horrible teams and got horrible run support (8% worse than average for his career, as high as 25% lower in some seasons). He had the worst run support of any HOF pitcher. First ballot HOFer for me.

[125osprey]

There is a lot to think about there. And I'll do just that and get back to you. I want my Hall of Fame to be fair and I don't want it to possess any glaring omissions. Admitedly, my knife may have been a bit too sharp when I made my excision.

I want to include players who excelled with their gloves and who, while not driving in or setting up runs, saved a number of runs with their defensive play. Should Mazeroski be in? I included Ozzie Smith and some other middle infielders because of their defensive prowess.

[Imapotato]

He said he was STRICT 53820

I can't argue with his exclusions, since he was very tight on who would be in HIS HOF

125osprey

The guys you mentioned...some of the GREAT defensive players

were

Ray Schalk
Mazeroski
Maranville
Bobby Wallace
George Davis
Jimmy Collins


They were OUTSTANDING, so it is probably that reason they are in the real HOF as noted by their average offense contributions

[Imapotato]

MY HOF

and I will probably miss some

Pitchers
Will White
Pud Glavin
Bob Caruthers
Tim Keefe
Charlie Radbourn
Mickey Welch
Tony Mullane
Rube Waddell
Nichols
Young
Mathewson
Mordecai Brown
Joss
Alexander
Walter Johnson
Dazzy Vance
Lefty Gomez
Dizzy Dean
Carl Hubbell
Lefty Grove
Hoyt Wilhelm
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichial
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Steve Carlton
Jack Morris
Jim Palmer
Warren Spahn
Sandy Koufax
Bob Feller
Stan Coveleski
John Clarkson
Amos Rusie
Hal Newhouser
Eddie Plank
Ted Lyons
Don Drysdale
Joe McGinnity
Eppa Rixey
Wes Farrell
Early Wynn
Al Spalding
Roger Clemens
Monte Ward (P and position player)
Satchel Paige-NL
Smokey Joe Williams-NL
Willie Foster-NL
Joe Rogan-NL
Hilton Smith-NL


Catchers
Buck Ewing
Roger Bresnahan
Johnny Kling
Ray Schalk
Mickey Cochrane
Gabby Hartnett
Spud Davis
Steve O'Neill
Bill Dickey
Joe Torre
Roy Campanella
Bill Freehan
Ted Simmons
Ernie Lombardi
Johnny Bench
Carlton Fisk
Gary Carter
Biz Mackey-NL
Josh Gibson-NL

1b
Cap Anson
Dan Brouthers
Jake Beckley
Roger Connor
Frank Chance
George Sisler
Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Hank Greenberg
Willie McCovey
Johnny Mize
Dick Allen
Buck Leonard-NL

2b
Bid McPhee
Johnny Evers
Nap Lajoie
Eddie Collins
George Cutshaw
Rogers Hornsby
Frankie Frisch
Charlie Gehringer
Bill Mazeroski
Jackie Robinson
Joe Gordon
Joe Morgan
Bobby Grich
Ryne Sandberg
Newt Allen-NL
Bingo DeMoss-NL

3b
Jimmy Collins
Frank Baker
Tommy Leach
Pie Traynor
Stan Hack
Willie Kamm
Eddie Matthews
Brooks Robinson
Ron Santo
Darrell Evans
Geroge Brett
Micke Schmidt
Wade Boggs
Ray Dandridge-NL
Judy Johnson-NL

SS
Jack Glasscock
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Honus Wagner
Rabbit Maranville
Bobby Wallace
Arky Vaughn
Lou Boudreau
Pee Wee Reese
Phil Rizzuto
Luke Appling
Luis Aparacio
Vern Stephens
Ernie Banks
Joe Cronin
Ozzie Smith
Robin Yount
Cal Ripken Jr
Barry Larkin
Pop Llyod-NL
Willie Wells-NL
John Beckwith-NL
Home Run Johnson-NL


LF

Jim O'Rourke
Ed Delahanty
Sherry Magee
Jesse Burkett
Fred Clarke
Zack Wheat
Stan Musial
Ted Williams
Rickey Henderson
Al Simmons
Carl Yastrzemski
Chick Hafey
Minnie Minoso
Tim Raines
Billy Williams
Goose Goslin
Lou Brock
Frank Howard
Monte Irvin-NL

CF

Jimmy Ryan
Pete Browning
Dummy Hoy
Billy Hamilton
Hugh Duffy
George Van Haltren
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Joe Dimaggio
Duke Snider
Earl Averill
Larry Doby
Max Carey
Richie Ashburn
Edd Roush
Jimmy Wynn
Dale Murphy
Kirby Puckett
cool papa bell-NL
Oscar Charleston-NL
Cristobal Torriente-NL


RF

Harry Stovey
Wee Willie Keeler
Sam Thompson
Sam Crawford
Harry Heilmann
Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Paul Waner
Al Kaline
Mel Ott
Reggie Jackson
Tony Gwynn
Roger Maris
Robertyo Clemente
Andre Dawson
Reggie Jackson
Willard Brown-NL

[Brad Harris]

125osprey and Imapotato...great lists! :clapping :clapping

[125osprey]

Tony Mullane is a cool pick that completely escaped my notice. I like Dummy Hoy and Elmer Flick as well, but primarily because they performed well for me on one of my OOTP teams.

[Imapotato]

Tony Mullane is a cool pick that completely escaped my notice. I like Dummy Hoy and Elmer Flick as well, but primarily because they performed well for me on one of my OOTP teams.



I did forget some 19th century guys

Will White
Harry Stovey
Pud Galvin (can't believe I forgot him)
Monte Ward
Hugh Duffy
Jake Beckley
Wee Willie Keeler


lol if that was the case....according to my OOTP league that is in 1945 now

I'll add

Noodles Hahn (309-202 2.81 2382Ks)
Bucky Veil (246-181 2.86) part of the Reds dynasty in the deadball era, and then with back to Pittsburgh and won a title there
Buddy Myer (who mnay thought was half black) .305 3098 hits career .816 OPS and the best SB threat in the 30's 40's with 490 Sbs 5 Gold Gloves, helped the Senators to 4 WS appearances and 2 wins

[Imapotato]

125osprey and Imapotato...great lists! :clapping :clapping


2 completely different lists from opposite spectrums...I cannot argue with Osprey's list since he didn't tighten it quite well

and as you can tell, I find defense important, which is why my biggest inclusions are at C and SS

Spud Davis is often forgotten for his bat and defense