Best Pitchers Never To Have Won A Cy Young Award

[SteveJRogers]

Obviously of those eligible to have won one (no, Satchel Paige and Bob Feller DO NOT COUNT as I realize they are probably the greatest of the pre 1956 hurlers to have pitched in the majors afterward, without gaining a CY Young award)

In case you are wondering, the following are HOFers, whom fall into this category, and never won the award;

Robin Roberts
Juan Marichal
Hoyt Wilhelm
Jim Bunning
Phil Niekro
Don Sutton
Nolan Ryan
Rich Gossage

Also in the mix should be perpetual "Why isn't he in the Hall yet" guys;

Jim Kaat
Bert Blyleven
Tommy John
Jack Morris
Lee Smith

I believe that's it for the guys that are still on the ballot. I'm surprised Dave Stewart didn't get enough support to belong with that list.

Guys still active today that could deserve consideration for the title;

Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera

Okay, Rivera is going into the Hall, but I'd argue about Hoffman's status as a future no doubt HOFer.

Other than those two, no one active who has never won a Cy strikes me as being involved in "should he go into the Hall" debates. Either they are too long in the tooth (Moyer), haven't done enough in their careers (Oswalt), or just had one or two years of "best pitcher in the game" discussions about them (Hudson, Mulder, Pettitte, etc).

All things considered, my top three is Marichal, Rivera and Gossage.

[STLCards2]

Don't forget about Mussina, K. Brown, and Schilling.

[SteveJRogers]

Right, forgot about the "still waiting to get on the ballot guys"

[dgarza]

1. Mariano Rivera
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Hoyt Wilhelm
4. Phil Niekro
5. Robin Roberts
6. Curt Schilling
7. Mike Mussina
8. Bert Blyleven
9. Trevor Hoffman
10. Juan Marichal
11. Don Sutton
12. Goose Gossage
13. Jim Bunning
14. Lee Smith
15. Billy Wagner
16. John Franco
17. Kevin Brown
18. Bob Lemon
19. Billy Pierce
20. Dan Quisenberry
21. Tom Henke
22. Tommy John
23. Tom Gordon
24. John Wetteland
25. Kent Tekulve
26. Lindy McDaniel
27. Jeff Reardon
28. Joe Nathan
29. Jack Morris
30. Luis Tiant
31. Doug Jones
32. Ellis Kinder
33. Roberto Hernandez
34. Rick Aguilera
35. Stu Miller
36. Jim Kaat
37. Tug McGraw
38. Robb Nen
39. Randy Myers
40. Dave Righetti

[metsfanbook]

I'd insert Jerry Koosman into that list, between Marichal and Sutton. He certainly deserved to win the Cy Young award in 1976 instead of Randy Jones.

[STLCards2]

9. Trevor Hoffman
10. Juan Marichal

14. Lee Smith
15. Billy Wagner
16. John Franco
17. Kevin Brown

21. Tom Henke
22. Tommy John
23. Tom Gordon
24. John Wetteland
25. Kent Tekulve
26. Lindy McDaniel
27. Jeff Reardon
28. Joe Nathan
30. Luis Tiant

31. Doug Jones
32. Ellis Kinder
33. Roberto Hernandez
34. Rick Aguilera
35. Stu Miller
36. Jim Kaat



Love those relievers, don't ya.:D

[Blackout]

Mariano rivera

[SteveJRogers]

Where is that list from? How is Niekro better than Marichal? Really?

[STLCards2]

Where is that list from? How is Niekro better than Marichal? Really?

Not at there very best, but Niekro did throw to almost 9,000 more batters (we'll call that 1 Sandy Koufax career total), without a massive drop in ERA+ (123 to 115). Niekro also had terrible defenses behind him, which is dragging down his ERA+ about 3 points.

Marichal was definitely better in his prime and I would definitely rather have him in any one big game I wanted to win, but there is no doubt that Niekro has a big career value advantage. Depends on what floats your boat.

Marichal WAR - 63
Niekro WAR - 94

[dgarza]

Not at there very best, but Niekro did throw to almost 9,000 more batters (we'll call that 1 Sandy Koufax career total), without a massive drop in ERA+ (123 to 115). Career value does halp Niekro a lot.

Also, Marichal threw roughly 3500 IPs. If we take Neikro's career up to 3500-something innings, I believe their ERA+ are nearly identical.

[STLCards2]

Career value does halp Niekro a lot.

Also, Marichal threw roughly 3500 IPs. If we take Neikro's career up to 3500-something innings, I believe their ERA+ are nearly identical.

Well, if we assume a normal ERA+ deterioration for Marichal, he would be at about a 108 ERA+ at 5,500 IP (I estimate around a 7-8 point ERA+ drop for every 1,000 IP after 3,000).

Of course the projected and the assumed don't always happen in reality.

I used BF instead of IP since it is more accurate - 1 IP in 1910 is not the same a 1 IP in 2000. BF vs. BF is closer. I guess PT would be the closest of all.

[Eastvanmungo]

Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.

[dgarza]

Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.If we are looking at peak, Kevin Brown is the only pitcher with a "qualifing" seasonal ERA+ over 200 to have not won a CY.

Kevin Brown - 1996 - ERA+ 216
Wilbur Wood - 1971 - ERA+ 188
Luis Tiant - 1968 - ERA+ 186
John Tudor - 1985 - ERA+ 184
Joe Horlen - 1964 - ERA+ 183
Jason Schmidt - 2003 - ERA+ 179
Kevin Appier - 1993 - ERA+ 179
Mark Prior - 2002 - ERA+ 178
Andy Pettitte - 2005 - ERA+ 177
Derek Lowe - 2002 - ERA+ 177

[Captain Cold Nose]

Love those relievers, don't ya.:D

That really shows how so many of the top starting pitchers of the Cy Young era have won the award.

I'd take Marichal overall. Who beat out Brown for the CYA in 1996? Even before I knew much about advanced metrics, he was clearly my choice that year.

[mwiggins]

Obviously of those eligible to have won one (no, Satchel Paige and Bob Feller DO NOT COUNT as I realize they are probably the greatest of the pre 1956 hurlers to have pitched in the majors afterward, without gaining a CY Young award)

In case you are wondering, the following are HOFers, whom fall into this category, and never won the award;

Robin Roberts


Roberts probably shouldn't count as well, since he was basically a pre-56 pitcher. He'd have likely won a couple of Cy Youngs if the award had existed during the early part of the 50's.

[SteveJRogers]

Who beat out Brown for the CYA in 1996? Even before I knew much about advanced metrics, he was clearly my choice that year.

John Smoltz.

[STLCards2]

Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.

I think Rogers would be my #1 choice over Cartlon in 1982. Stieb probably deserved 2-3 there in the mid 80's.

[Los Bravos]

Let's not cry too hard for poor Kevin Brown. Baseball already gave away too much hardware to juicers in the '90's as it stands now.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Marichal and Mussina are the best pitchers never to have won a Cy Young.

Marichal and Kaat both would have won a Cy Young Award had each league had an award from the beginning. Kaat would have probably won the AL Cy Young Award in 1966, and Marichal would have won the NL award in 1964, in all likelihood.

[EricAnno]

Let's not cry too hard for poor Kevin Brown. Baseball already gave away too much hardware to juicers in the '90's as it stands now.

Oh, so you have evidence that shows he was using that year?

May we see it, please?

Brown was clearly the better pitcher that year, and Smoltz got it because he won 24 games and led the league in that category as well as K's. There was a 67 point differential in ERA+. Brown was clearly the best pitcher in the National League, before there were any rumors about him being linked to steroids.

[STLCards2]

Let's not cry too hard for poor Kevin Brown. Baseball already gave away too much hardware to juicers in the '90's as it stands now.

All credible evidence available suggests that Brown used from 2001-2005. Since most of those years were short, injury-prone, or poor anyway, it looks like the steroids only had minimal impact at most to Brown's overall numbers.

[PVNICK]

Oh, so you have evidence that shows he was using that year?

May we see it, please?

Brown was clearly the better pitcher that year, and Smoltz got it because he won 24 games and led the league in that category as well as K's. There was a 67 point differential in ERA+. Brown was clearly the best pitcher in the National League, before there were any rumors about him being linked to steroids.

I just took a look back and yeah the ERAs were 2.94 to 1.89 in Brown's favor with W-L 24-8 vs. 17-11 in Smoltz' favor. However Smoltz led the league in IP @ 253.2 v. 233 and K 276 w/ Brown @ 159. Brown gave up 8 HR which is the only single digit total above 121 IP while Smoltz gave up 19 HR. Brown had 33 BB v. 55 for Smoltz but Brown had 16 HBP v. 2 for Smoltz.
To me Smoltz may have had better peripherals K, BB/HBP, HR than Brown. It hinges on which is more valuable those 117 more Ks in 20 IP or Brown's 11 less HR (and 8 fewer BB/HBP).

[Los Bravos]

I really don't care if there is a connection with that year and Brown's PED use. That's irrelevant to me and I wasn't implying anything other than the fairly well established fact that he was a user. Some around here consider that a minor matter. I don't.

Also, as a general rule, if you're arguing against a decision that was already arrived at, "clearly" isn't really the best possible term to employ twice. If it were that clear, there wouldn't be a controversy.

[Los Bravos]

To me Smoltz may have had better peripherals K, BB/HBP, HR than Brown. It hinges on which is more valuable those 117 more Ks in 20 IP or Brown's 11 less HR (and 8 fewer BB/HBP).I bolded a key point there: context. John's numbers were achieved while leading the best team in the NL. Brown's Marlins finished in 3rd in that division at 80-82. Like it or not, seasons like Brown's are usually viewed as empty stats exercises by most writers, at least when compared to a comparable season from another pitcher which is coupled with a signifigant team accomplishment.

[mwiggins]

I bolded a key point there: context. John's numbers were achieved while leading the best team in the NL. Brown's Marlins finished in 3rd in that division at 80-82. Like it or not, seasons like Brown's are usually viewed as empty stats exercises by most writers, at least when compared to a comparable season from another pitcher which is coupled with a signifigant team accomplishment.

Exactly. Brown wouldn't have been a bad choice, but I thought Smoltz should have won then and I still think that was the best choice of two deserving candidates. It's not the "Best ERA+ Award".

[BigRon]

Among starters, the pitchers with the best careers w/o a CYA:
1. Juan Marichal
2. Phil Niekro
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Nolan Ryan- although I COULD talk myself into placing him lower
5. Mike Mussina or about 5 other guys

I don't list Robin Roberts since his last really effective full time season was 1956, the first year of the award.

Among relievers, Mariano Rivera, Rich Gossage, and Hoyt Wilhelm stand out- of course, part of Wilhelm's career was before the CYA and he went back and forth between starting and relieving.

[Iron Jaw]

;

Jim Kaat


Jim Kaat would have won the American League Cy Young Award in 1966......if they had one. However, at that time it was a combined Major League Award, and won by Sandy Koufax of the Dogers - the only pitcher who had a better season than Kaat that year.

The following season, the award was split for both leagues to have a winner. Jim Lonborg (Bos.) and Mike McCormick (SF) were the maiden winners of the dual award.

[Iron Jaw]

Dave McNally, one of my favorite pitchers during his time with the Orioles, under normal circumstances, could have won the CYA anytime from 1968-71. The winners during that period were; Denny McLain '68, Dave's teammate Mike Cuellar and McLain co-awarded, '69, Jim Perry '70, and Vida Blue in '71. Those mentioned, had fantastic seasons. McNally finished second to Jim Perry in the voting (39%) in 1970. He had 4th place finishes in 1969 and 1971.

[Los Bravos]

I know he's generally derided around here but Dave Stewart had a Marichalesque run of frustration in spite of consistent excellence from '87 through '90 and never really had much of a shot at winning the AL award.

[dgarza]

Love those relievers, don't ya.:D
Certainly a lot of relievers in there, aren't there?

How about this:

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Phil Niekro
3. Robin Roberts
4. Curt Schilling
5. Mike Mussina
6. Bert Blyleven
7. Juan Marichal
8. Don Sutton
9. Jim Bunning
10. Kevin Brown
11. Bob Lemon
12. Billy Pierce
13. Tommy John
14. Jack Morris
15. Luis Tiant
16. Jim Kaat
17. Mickey Lolich
18. Dave Stieb
19. Rick Reuschel
20. Chuck Finley
21. David Wells
22. Bob Friend
23. Dennis Martinez
24. Larry Jackson
25. Jimmy Key
26. Jerry Koosman
27. Andy Pettitte
28. Roy Oswalt
29. Lew Burdette
30. Camilo Pascual

[STLCards2]

Certainly a lot of relievers in there, aren't there?

How about this:

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Phil Niekro
3. Robin Roberts
4. Curt Schilling
5. Mike Mussina
6. Bert Blyleven
7. Juan Marichal
8. Don Sutton
9. Jim Bunning
10. Kevin Brown
11. Bob Lemon
12. Billy Pierce
13. Tommy John
14. Jack Morris
15. Luis Tiant
16. Jim Kaat
17. Mickey Lolich
18. Dave Stieb
19. Rick Reuschel
20. Chuck Finley
21. David Wells
22. Bob Friend
23. Dennis Martinez
24. Larry Jackson
25. Jimmy Key
26. Jerry Koosman
27. Andy Pettitte
28. Roy Oswalt
29. Lew Burdette
30. Camilo Pascual

Ah, much better! :D

[nerfan]

Certainly a lot of relievers in there, aren't there?

How about this:

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Phil Niekro
3. Robin Roberts
4. Curt Schilling
5. Mike Mussina
6. Bert Blyleven
7. Juan Marichal
8. Don Sutton
9. Jim Bunning
10. Kevin Brown
11. Bob Lemon
12. Billy Pierce
13. Tommy John
14. Jack Morris
15. Luis Tiant
16. Jim Kaat
17. Mickey Lolich
18. Dave Stieb
19. Rick Reuschel
20. Chuck Finley
21. David Wells
22. Bob Friend
23. Dennis Martinez
24. Larry Jackson
25. Jimmy Key
26. Jerry Koosman
27. Andy Pettitte
28. Roy Oswalt
29. Lew Burdette
30. Camilo Pascual

Phil > Nolan

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.

Steve Rogers should have won it hands down in 1982 (finished 2nd). Although he led the NL is ERA at 2.40, Steve Carleton won it with a 3.10 ERA in 20 more IP. Carlton won 23 games to Rogers 19, but thats obviously because he was on a better team. Rogers also suffered from playing on the low-profile Expos.

[dgarza]

Phil > Nolan
You quoted 1-30 to talk about 1-2?

Yeah, it's not unreasonable to rank Niekro ahead of Ryan.

[nerfan]

You quoted 1-30 to talk about 1-2?

Yeah, it's not unreasonable to rank Niekro ahead of Ryan.

Hah. I'd also rank Moose over Curt, because I hate Curt, but that's just me.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Also, if were just talking peak, Dennis Leonard & Tim Hudson could be in the discussion.

How about Jose Rijo? He was one of the best pitchers in the NL for a 5 year span in the early-90's. He finished second in ERA twice and 5th twice. He didn't get Cy Young support because his teams didn't score any runs for him. The most games he won during his run of dominance was 15.

[dgarza]

Daisuke Matsuzaka has had one of the highest seasonal winning % without getting a CY.
18-3 = .857, 2.90 ERA in 2008

Also see Mike Hampton in 1999 : 22-4 = .846

And Bob Purkey in 1962 : 23-5 = .821