Bobby Valentine

[Brad Harris]

Valentine's contract with Chiba Lotte is up at the end of this year and he's looking for a MLB managing job again. With his past record and the fact he's only 59 years old, it would be hard to imagine him not being a strong candidate for several potential openings over the next season or two. That being said, Valentine currently has 1,100 wins, a > .500 W% and a World Series appearance to his credit. What if he manages in the Big Leagues another 5-6 years, tacks on another 500 wins and another pennant to his resume. At that point, he'd be a two-time pennant winner, someone with 500 wins for three different major league teams and over 1,600 MLB wins. Normally, I wouldn't give that kind of resume too much thought, however, if you throw in Valentine's Japanese tenure, that's almost another 500 wins and a Japan Series Championship, making Valentine a manager with over 2,000 professional wins and at least one championship to his name.

Valentine compiling another 500 MLB is hardly out of the question. So I thought it would be interesting to look at. Would those kind of numbers be sufficient to make him Hall-worthy? Would you not count his JL tenure at all? What teams are most likely to sign Valentine and how would that effect his potential to take his next team to the World Series?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Valentine's contract with Chiba Lotte is up at the end of this year and he's looking for a MLB managing job again. With his past record and the fact he's only 59 years old, it would be hard to imagine him not being a strong candidate for several potential openings over the next season or two. That being said, Valentine currently has 1,100 wins, a > .500 W% and a World Series appearance to his credit. What if he manages in the Big Leagues another 5-6 years, tacks on another 500 wins and another pennant to his resume. At that point, he'd be a two-time pennant winner, someone with 500 wins for three different major league teams and over 1,600 MLB wins. Normally, I wouldn't give that kind of resume too much thought, however, if you throw in Valentine's Japanese tenure, that's almost another 500 wins and a Japan Series Championship, making Valentine a manager with over 2,000 professional wins and at least one championship to his name.

Valentine compiling another 500 MLB is hardly out of the question. So I thought it would be interesting to look at. Would those kind of numbers be sufficient to make him Hall-worthy? Would you not count his JL tenure at all? What teams are most likely to sign Valentine and how would that effect his potential to take his next team to the World Series?

If Valentine did what you said, he'd be a stronger candidate than he is now. I've never thought Valentine was a particularly good manager, but in the end, his induction will be a matter of evaluating his W-L record as a manager. His record in Japan may or may not help him in the final analysis, but he has unique accomplishments there, so this will fuel the discussion.

I'll wait until he comes back for further comment.

[jjpm74]

I'd take Jamie Moyer as a HOFer before I'd even consider Valentine, but yeah, sure. If you're into giving out a gold watch for anyone who manages to hold on as long as Valentine, why not? Maybe we can also give the honor to Gene Mauch, Ralph Hoak, Jimmy Dykes, Chuck Tanner, Charlie Grimm, Bill Rigney, Mike Hargrove and Tom Kelly while we're at it.

[jalbright]

It's always hard to do this for guys whose careers aren't done, much less add hypothetical accomplishments to their record. One reason it might work the way suggested is that Valentine has already publicly become a bit of an advocate for Japanese baseball, and were he to win a World Series while continuing in that role, who knows what that combination might lead to? Regardless, right now, it's very speculative.

[Cougar]

Valentine is a polarizing figure...he is admired by many but also detested by many.

Your scenario is an interesting one; until something like it comes to pass, he's got no chance at the HOF, but it is not exceptionally far-fetched.

A neat thought experiment.

I would be willing to give his experience in Japan some weight...I honestly don't know how much. I'd need to research it.

[metfan13]

No, he's not a Hall of Famer. Unless those 5-6 MLB seasons bring 3-4 championships.

[Captain Cold Nose]

RMB has him rated very highly in his all-time manager rankings. I guess he does very well vs. Pythagorean wins.

Ish kabibble.

[KCGHOST]

I am not big on managers being in the HoF so I wouldn't vote for him under any circumstances. I suspect if he came back and got his victory total up to 2000 and won a couple rings he might have a chance with whatever group is empowered to elect managers.

[Brad Harris]

Valentine is a polarizing figure...he is admired by many but also detested by many.

Your scenario is an interesting one; until something like it comes to pass, he's got no chance at the HOF, but it is not exceptionally far-fetched.

A neat thought experiment.

I would be willing to give his experience in Japan some weight...I honestly don't know how much. I'd need to research it.

Which is rather the point. With Ichiro likely to be elected in part on the basis of his playing career in Japan, shouldn't those same voters be even more willing to give credit to someone for managing in Japan? After all, there's certainly likely less a difference in quality in managing between the two leagues than there is in playing in them.

[ol' aches and pains]

It's an interesting thought, I wonder how much weight, if any, Ichiro's Japanese career will carry at HOF voting time. I believe Ichiro is first-ballot worthy without taking his pre-MLB career into account. Valentine is another case altogether.

[Cougar]

Which is rather the point. With Ichiro likely to be elected in part on the basis of his playing career in Japan, shouldn't those same voters be even more willing to give credit to someone for managing in Japan? After all, there's certainly likely less a difference in quality in managing between the two leagues than there is in playing in them.

Perhaps, but I think Ichiro has reached the point where he would reach Cooperstown with or without his Japanese credentials. He's got a .333 career BA, eight straight (and likely nine straight) seasons with a .300+ BA, 200+ hits, 100 runs scored, 30 SB, All-Star selection, and a Gold Glove. He's won two batting titles, five hits titles, one SB title, a ROY, and an MVP. He holds the single season hits record.

That's a HOF resume right there. Ichiro is a HOF lock when he takes the field opening day next season.

[Cougar]

No, he's not a Hall of Famer. Unless those 5-6 MLB seasons bring 3-4 championships.

Under these circumstances he would not need the Japanese league credit, so it is rather besides the point.

The original hypothetical is more interesting...where Valentine becomes a dubious fringe candidate on his MLB credentials alone, but might become a plausible pick with the inclusion of his exploits in Japan.

[Brad Harris]

If he just comes back for 500 wins and another pennant, he's basically Lou Piniella at that point. Lou is borderline for me. Obviously Valentine would be moreso. The point is if he's done enough to sneak into the gray area, would the additional 500 wins and a title from Japan be enough to push him into the "in" crowd?

[Cougar]

If he just comes back for 500 wins and another pennant, he's basically Lou Piniella at that point. Lou is borderline for me. Obviously Valentine would be moreso. The point is if he's done enough to sneak into the gray area, would the additional 500 wins and a title from Japan be enough to push him into the "in" crowd?

Lou Piniella won a WS, not just a pennant. (Although I guess in this hypothetical Valentine would have won two pennants.)

He also managed the Mariners to the all-time single season wins mark in 2001, had winning records in New York managing under 1980's George, in Cincinnati managing under Marge Schott in full flower (including the WS win), for an extended run in Seattle, and is winning with the Cubbies despite some awful karma (their injuries this season rival the Mets). He only lost in Tampa Bay, but played a big role in developing the talent that changed them from a perennial second division team to a pennant winner last season. He's won Manager of the Year three times.

Piniella's total tenure as a manager is one of the longest in the game...he's managed nearly uninterrupted since 1986; there was a Billy Martin interregnum in the beginning of 1988, a year off in 1989, and then only a year off in 2006, between the Devil Rays and Cubs postings.

And he's still managing!

At this writing, only 13 men have managed more games than Piniella, and the same 13 are the only men to have won more games. All except the cursed Gene Mauch are either in the Hall or mortal locks to be (LaRussa, Cox, Torre).

Not to mention Piniella is a colorful, popular figure, who is esteemed as one of the best batting instructors of his day.

Piniella has had some tough luck in playoff series, but those are small samples -- just ask Bobby Cox or Billy Beane.

Obviously, delivering a NL pennant to the Cubs would seal the deal, but even without that, it's hard to believe that Piniella isn't headed to Cooperstown now.

[Cougar]

I think it's important to note here that Valentine has never won a divisional title. He won his pennant as a Wild Card with the Mets, and got another Wild Card the season before.

Piniella won 6 divisional titles -- 1 with the Reds, 3 with Seattle, and 2 with the Cubs. He also won a Wild Card with the Mariners. Further, in four seasons, Lou won 93, 90, 90, and 89 games but missed out on the postseason.

To reiterate: Piniella should be a lock, and his record is probably not reachable by Valentine absent his hypothetically taking over a team that becomes a dynasty under his watch.

[Brad Harris]

I think it's important to note here that Valentine has never won a divisional title. He won his pennant as a Wild Card with the Mets, and got another Wild Card the season before.

Piniella won 6 divisional titles -- 1 with the Reds, 3 with Seattle, and 2 with the Cubs. He also won a Wild Card with the Mariners. Further, in four seasons, Lou won 93, 90, 90, and 89 games but missed out on the postseason.

To reiterate: Piniella should be a lock, and his record is probably not reachable by Valentine absent his hypothetically taking over a team that becomes a dynasty under his watch.

Okay. Bad comp. :laugh

[Fuzzy Bear]

Which is rather the point. With Ichiro likely to be elected in part on the basis of his playing career in Japan, shouldn't those same voters be even more willing to give credit to someone for managing in Japan? After all, there's certainly likely less a difference in quality in managing between the two leagues than there is in playing in them.


Ichiro isn't going to get in based on anything he did in Japan. He's going to be evaluated on his 10 years in the bigs, with the understanding that he came late to MLB for reasons that were (somewhat) beyond his control. He's a ROY and MVP and a perennial 200-hit guy. If a guy came out of nowhere and did what Ichiro did for 10 years, he'd be a HOF candidate as well.

[Fuzzy Bear]

One wonders what team would need and want Valentine. The Mets are the obvious pick, but would they have him back?

Houston and Milwaukee are two possibilities. I can't see Valentine managing in the AL at this point, and I can't see an AL team that would be a decent fit.

It's not just that a team would NEED Valentine; Valentine would have to NEED the particular team as a possible vehicle to the World Series. Managing the Pirates for 6 years isn't going to help Valentine get into the HOF.

[Cougar]

Houston and Milwaukee are two possibilities. I can't see Valentine managing in the AL at this point, and I can't see an AL team that would be a decent fit.


Why wouldn't Valentine want to manage in the AL?

With his Japanese connection, he'd be a great fit in Seattle should Wakamatsu find himself on the hot seat.

Wedge is probably a dead man walking in Cleveland, and that team could use a guy like Valentine to kick them in the pants.

There could also be openings in Baltimore and Kansas City, but those are situations I can't see Valentine taking...they have systemic problems that will keep them from winning any time soon, plus they are both mired in very deep divisions.

I can't see Valentine coming back to the Mets...I think there were some bridges burned by the end of his tenure (mostly with Steve Phillips, but nonetheless).

My best guess in the NL is Arizona, if the D-Backs decide Hinch is not the answer. San Diego is a possibility too, although they look to be rebuilding.

My money is on Cleveland.

[Jsquared83]

Valentine would have to pull a Joe Torre, come back and manage a team rising in talent and win at least 2 titles with them. The catch is that Bobby is not even anywhere near as liked as much as Torre is, or was :D

[Jsquared83]

In fact, I'd take Buck Showalter as manager over Valentine. Similar win/loss %. Only thing that Bobby has over Buck is the WS appearance. Showalter got cheated out of a 1994 division title and won one in 99 with the Dbacks.

[Ace Venom]

Which is rather the point. With Ichiro likely to be elected in part on the basis of his playing career in Japan, shouldn't those same voters be even more willing to give credit to someone for managing in Japan? After all, there's certainly likely less a difference in quality in managing between the two leagues than there is in playing in them.

Ichiro already has over 3,000 hits at the highest levels of play in Japan and North America. There's no doubt in my mind that he has a shot at 4,256 with his combined NPB and MLB totals. This will add to his legend significantly since he already holds the single season records in Japan and North America. He's only 20 hits away from having 2,000 major league hits for crying out loud. That's in 9 seasons of play and another 25 locks in a ninth consecutive 200 hit season. His North American accomplishments would be good enough for anyone.

It's a tough comparison for Bobby Valentine. I think he falls into the Julio Franco category where the professional totals look impressive jumbled together, but everyone remembers what you did in MLB much more. There's also the fact that Valentine isn't well liked. About the only thing that could make him a lock would be to win a World Series with the Cubs, Giants or Indians.

[jjpm74]

It's a tough comparison for Bobby Valentine. I think he falls into the Julio Franco category where the professional totals look impressive jumbled together, but everyone remembers what you did in MLB much more. There's also the fact that Valentine isn't well liked. About the only thing that could make him a lock would be to win a World Series with the Cubs, Giants or Indians.

If Bobby Valentine goes to the Cubs and manages them to a World Series title, there's no way he'd make it into the HOF because the next day a giant meteor will hit the earth, wiping out the human species forever and plunging the planet into a new ice age.

[Ace Venom]

If Bobby Valentine goes to the Cubs and manages them to a World Series title, there's no way he'd make it into the HOF because the next day a giant meteor will hit the earth, wiping out the human species forever and plunging the planet into a new ice age.

No. That's the Indians.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Valentine would have to pull a Joe Torre, come back and manage a team rising in talent and win at least 2 titles with them. The catch is that Bobby is not even anywhere near as liked as much as Torre is, or was :D


This appears to be the perception of Valentine, and it will be a barrier for him as far as getting the kind of job he will need to make the HOF (assuming Valentine thinks in those terms).

I can't see Valentine as succeeding in Cleveland. The Indians retooled a few years back, but the problem was that (A) all of there guys peaked at the same time, but briefly, and (B) a number of the big names they boast aren't really as good as their reputations (Hafner, Sizemore).

Valentine could get on at Pittsburgh or Kansas City, but I don't know that he'd be good for either of those teams. He'd be disgusted quickly, and he'd show it.

One team that MIGHT do well with Valentine at the helm is the Twins; it's the ONLY AL team I can see Valentine (A) getting on with that (B) has a shot at 1st place under some conditions. Gardenhire's been fairly entrenched there, but he's losing now, and I see him as vulnerable, so who knows?

[Cougar]

This appears to be the perception of Valentine, and it will be a barrier for him as far as getting the kind of job he will need to make the HOF (assuming Valentine thinks in those terms).

I can't see Valentine as succeeding in Cleveland. The Indians retooled a few years back, but the problem was that (A) all of there guys peaked at the same time, but briefly, and (B) a number of the big names they boast aren't really as good as their reputations (Hafner, Sizemore).

Valentine could get on at Pittsburgh or Kansas City, but I don't know that he'd be good for either of those teams. He'd be disgusted quickly, and he'd show it.

One team that MIGHT do well with Valentine at the helm is the Twins; it's the ONLY AL team I can see Valentine (A) getting on with that (B) has a shot at 1st place under some conditions. Gardenhire's been fairly entrenched there, but he's losing now, and I see him as vulnerable, so who knows?

Sizemore has been terribly misused, and should rebound in a new environment, whether it's on Lake Erie or not. Hafner, unfortunately, appears to be finished.

Gardenhire is not going anywhere.

[davewashere]

Ichiro isn't going to get in based on anything he did in Japan. He's going to be evaluated on his 10 years in the bigs, with the understanding that he came late to MLB for reasons that were (somewhat) beyond his control. He's a ROY and MVP and a perennial 200-hit guy. If a guy came out of nowhere and did what Ichiro did for 10 years, he'd be a HOF candidate as well.

And it's not like Ichiro is done. He's having one of his best seasons yet this year and isn't showing signs of slowing down. He'll get to Cooperstown easily based on just his MLB credentials.

If Valentine gets any bonus points for his work in Japan it'll be for his being an "ambassador of the game" and not for his team's achievements on the field. Valentine needs another 10-15 above average years with half a dozen or so division titles here in the states for me to consider him a HOFer, or 5 great years with at least 2 championships.