Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones [Archive]

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micsmith

08-11-2009, 09:28 PM

Who would you vote for the Hall of Fame if you HAD to choose one. Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

TonyStarks

08-11-2009, 09:45 PM

I'd prefer Jim Edmonds. Much more complete player and I loved his style of play.
Where Jones nonchalant way would sometimes irk me. Edmonds only had one gear and it was "Full Speed".

STLCards2

08-11-2009, 09:45 PM

Who would you vote for the Hall of Fame if you HAD to choose one. Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones?

Edmonds: his offensive peak for a CF ranks up their with the all-timers and has greater separation offensively from Jones than Jones does from Edmonds defensively.

WAR has Edmonds at 67 WAR (68th) and Jones at 58 (118th) WAR.

Jones: 90 BRAR, 180 FRAR, 58 OFARM RAR
Edmonds 332 BRAR, 42 FRAR, 48 OFARM RAR

In case anybody is interested - Edmonds is sandwiched inbetween Trammel, Murray, Reese, and I. Rodriguez. Jones is sandwiched in between McPhee, Wheat, Rolen, and Stargell.

WAR is not the only thing I look at, but it does a good job of considering offense, defense, baserunning, park, positional adjustments, run environment, outfield arm, and GIDP's. Based on this and Edmond's peak, I'd say he is the better bet here.

I'd put Edmonds in the HOF for sure, and Jones is pretty borderline, in my opinion.

STLCards2

08-11-2009, 09:46 PM

I'd prefer Jim Edmonds. Much more complete player and I loved his style of play.
Where Jones nonchalant way would sometimes irk me. Edmonds only had one gear and it was "Full Speed".

having watched Edmonds every day for 8 years, I can promise you that he had moments (even days) where he was very nonchalant and did not go "full speed", even though those days did not seem to come as frequently as they did for Jones (I watched the Braves games every day too!)

CircleChange11

08-11-2009, 09:51 PM

having watched Edmonds every day for 8 years, I can promise you that he had moments (even days) where he was very nonchalant and did not go "full speed", even though those days did not seem to come as frequently as they did for Jones (I watched the Braves games every day too!)

Edmonds also seemed to "run just fast enough for a dive" on some plays in front or to the side. Obviously he is exceptional going back on balls over his head.

I've been a Cards fan for life, and I don't remember Edmonds having "one gear". I think his willingness to crash into the wall, or even dive when he likely could have caught the ball on the run contribute to that perception. Compare that to say, McGee who rarely seemed to dive ... because he didn't have to. Too much of our impressions of fielders is based on highlights and web gems (Jeter), when some guys like a prime Tejada getto (seemingly) everything that other guys have to dive for.

Still, Edmonds defense was superb.

STLCards2

08-11-2009, 09:59 PM

Edmonds also seemed to "run just fast enough for a dive" on some plays in front or to the side. Obviously he is exceptional going back on balls over his head.

I've been a Cards fan for life, and I don't remember Edmonds having "one gear". I think his willingness to crash into the wall, or even dive when he likely could have caught the ball on the run contribute to that perception.

Edmonds had average speed, but got incredible jumps on balls. It was these jumps, his OF arm, and his athletisism on balls over his head that made him such a good CF. Of course had he Jones' natural speed, he would have been an all-timer.

I have no doubts that he dove to make some routine plays look hard. But, hey, it got the crowd into the game - so whatever helps, I guess. What would drive me crazy was when 1. he wouldn't even come set on a 3-0 count, and #2, when he would dive away or duck when the ball was right down the middle. They didn't call him "Hollywood Jim" for nothing.

CircleChange11

08-11-2009, 10:11 PM

What would drive me crazy was when

.... he'd have a hat trick going with 5 LOB, and then hit a walk-off bomb. He was good like that. :D

I thought *this* is why they called him 'Hollywood Jim'?

http://www.thecubsbrickyard.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/edmondsgrabballs.jpg

*Shrugs*

STLCards2

08-11-2009, 10:25 PM

.... he'd have a hat trick going with 5 LOB, and then hit a walk-off bomb. He was good like that. :D

I thought *this* is why they called him 'Hollywood Jim'?

*Shrugs*

He was streaky like that. Sometimes would go three weeks with 30 Ks and no XB hits, then would go 3 weeks with 10 homeruns, 20 walks, 10 doubles, and a .800 average.

But, this is why they called him "Hollywood Jim" -

CircleChange11

08-11-2009, 10:44 PM

Heh Heh .......

Brad Harris

08-11-2009, 10:47 PM

Edmonds. No contest.

Jsquared83

08-11-2009, 10:48 PM

Jones still has an outside shot cause he's still playing. Edmonds just misses my cut. Solid rate stats and GGs but only 4x AS games, poor grey ink and generally light counting stats keep him on the outside looking in. Dale Murphy is more deserving of a candidate and he's very borderline.

PVNICK

08-12-2009, 05:29 AM

Edmonds. I'd like to know how good he was outside of the Sportscenter plays, b/c over the last three-six years (admittedly past his prime) +/- has him as the worst or close to it CF in all of MLB, whereas Andruw is pretty much credited w/ being the best CF of his generation defensively and having the numbers to back it up. Anyone have any info on Edmonds as an Angel or early days w/ Stl? The gist of his bad numbers is that he plays way, way too deep (or is to slow or something for where he plays) so the bazillions of balls that he lets fall in front of him dwarf the occasional XBH he may save. Edmonds has a case for top 10 CF, but if it turns out he's in reality a crappy CF who pulls off a great play that makes it onto the highlight reels once a month and skews your impression of him, he may not.

Fuzzy Bear

08-12-2009, 07:33 AM

I'd prefer Jim Edmonds. Much more complete player and I loved his style of play.
Where Jones nonchalant way would sometimes irk me. Edmonds only had one gear and it was "Full Speed".

I prefer Jim Edmonds for much the same reason. Despite Jones' advantage in counting stats at different ages, Edmonds was the FAR, FAR superior offensive player, offsetting any defensive advantage one would attribute to Jones.

This is an aside, but I have been skeptical of Jones' stated age for some time. Officially, the record states that he was born in Curacao in April, 1977, but his career stats read like a guy who was born no earlier than April, 1974, and possibly 1973 or even 1972. There have been a number of age revisions on various Caribbean players from different nations, and some of the age falsification has been accomplished with the complicity of some scouts. What makes me skeptical is that Jones was playing in the WS at age 19, was a regular at 20 and a minor star, at the least, at age 21, but he never really grew from the point he was at in what I am told is his early twenties. This is not a typical growth pattern; most players that are in the majors at 20-21 show TREMENDOUS growth; even a guy who's a 22 year old rookie shows far more growth than Jones did from his "age 21" season. Jones went up a bit, and down a bit, having good years and bad years, but he really didn't show the kind of explosive growth that a 20 year old position player in the major leagues tends to show.

Perhaps I'm off base on this. Not every 20 year old in the big leagues is Mickey Mantle. Some are Ruben Sierra or Cesar Cedeno, but those guys had documentable problems that one could point to as growth-stiflers. (I'm skeptical of Cedeno's real age as well.) But I find it unusual for a guy like Jones to come into MLB at age 19, be a regular at 20, yet never grow significantly from that point. If you told me that Jones was really born in 1973, his career progression would make far more sense.

STLCards2

08-12-2009, 08:52 AM

KCGHOST

08-12-2009, 10:10 AM

I probably wouldn't vote for either one in real life, but if I HAD to I suppose I would go with Edmonds.

Fielding Marshall

08-12-2009, 10:45 AM

I'd put Edmonds in the HOF for sure, and Jones is pretty borderline, in my opinion.

My sentiments exactly.

This is an aside, but I have been skeptical of Jones' stated age for some time. Officially, the record states that he was born in Curacao in April, 1977, but his career stats read like a guy who was born no earlier than April, 1974, and possibly 1973 or even 1972. There have been a number of age revisions on various Caribbean players from different nations, and some of the age falsification has been accomplished with the complicity of some scouts. What makes me skeptical is that Jones was playing in the WS at age 19, was a regular at 20 and a minor star, at the least, at age 21, but he never really grew from the point he was at in what I am told is his early twenties. This is not a typical growth pattern; most players that are in the majors at 20-21 show TREMENDOUS growth; even a guy who's a 22 year old rookie shows far more growth than Jones did from his "age 21" season. Jones went up a bit, and down a bit, having good years and bad years, but he really didn't show the kind of explosive growth that a 20 year old position player in the major leagues tends to show.

Perhaps I'm off base on this. Not every 20 year old in the big leagues is Mickey Mantle. Some are Ruben Sierra or Cesar Cedeno, but those guys had documentable problems that one could point to as growth-stiflers. (I'm skeptical of Cedeno's real age as well.) But I find it unusual for a guy like Jones to come into MLB at age 19, be a regular at 20, yet never grow significantly from that point. If you told me that Jones was really born in 1973, his career progression would make far more sense.

That's really quite interesting. It would make sense...

PVNICK

08-12-2009, 11:17 AM

Total Zone, UZR, +/-, and BP's FRAA, all see Edmonds as a very good, but not all-time CF. He is definitely overrated by his SC highlights, but still well-above average. You are right that he was a below average CF his last 2-3 seasons.

Thanks for the info.

Fuzzy, it does seem like Jones played a few years older and his career arc followed that same path.

Domenic

08-12-2009, 12:13 PM

I believe Edmonds has a better case, though I suppose Jones is still in the position to change that.

By WARP3
Edmonds - 82.5
Jones - 74.3

By EQA
Edmonds - .303
Jones - .279

By Win Shares
Edmonds - 301
Jones - 256

Otis Nixon's Bodyguard

08-12-2009, 09:10 PM

Edmonds by a mile. Nothing against Jones, but Edmonds was a much better hitter without giving up that much on defense.

EricAnno

08-12-2009, 10:53 PM

Well, the MLB Network does have Jim Edmonds listed as the eighth greatest center fielder of all-time so...

jjpm74

08-12-2009, 11:22 PM

Edmunds by a large margin.

west coast orange and black

08-13-2009, 01:19 AM

EricAnno

08-13-2009, 12:14 PM

really? how did that happen; did they go back only to 1970?

Nope...the MLB Network just sucks!

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Cougar

08-13-2009, 01:19 PM

ericanno: MLB Network does have Jim Edmonds listed as the eighth greatest ...

really? how did that happen; did they go back only to 1970?

max carey
ty cobb
joe dimaggio
ken griffey, jr.
mickey mantle
willie mays
kirby puckett
duke snider
tris speaker

I don't agree, but I'm not going to argue too vociferously. In my opinion, there's a clear top 7* in CF, and after that it gets awfully murky, depending on how one weights rate stats, counting numbers, defense, peak v. career, etc.

*Who is the top 7, you ask? Well, I think it's so obvious, I'll let you fill in the blanks. No order necessary: I'll bet EVERYONE gets the top seven right.

Highlight hidden text below for the answer.

Alphabetically: Cobb, DiMaggio, Griffey, Mantle, Mays, Snider, Speaker.

.

Freakshow

08-14-2009, 12:16 AM

Alphabetically: Cobb, DiMaggio, Griffey, Mantle, Mays, Snider, Speaker. And Oscar Charleston makes it 8.

Cougar

08-14-2009, 12:29 PM

Friendly amendment gladly accepted.

abolishthedh

08-15-2009, 10:26 AM

Jim Edmonds: He would probably still be playing had he not taken such an outrageous uppercut on every swing. Since trying to swing level is how I learned the game as a kid, I would have a hard time rewarding a player who committed the cardinal sin of swinging like a softball player.

Andruw Jones: It has been painful to watch his recent decline, because up until his unexplained decline I had been in his corner that he had not been a user of PEDs. At this point, IMHO, there is no other explanation for such a dropoff in production.

Both CFers have been the model for how to play CF. It is true that the typical highlight catch of Edmonds is going back on the ball and making catches while running away from home plate, while Jones' typical highlighter is coming in to make a diving play. Distinctly different approaches, and they have both worked well as we know.

So, in answer to your question: If I could vote for the Hall, and I HAD to make a choice, then I would resign from the privilege altogether.:D

abolishthedh

08-15-2009, 10:41 AM

This is an aside, but I have been skeptical of Jones' stated age for some time. Officially, the record states that he was born in Curacao in April, 1977, but his career stats read like a guy who was born no earlier than April, 1974, and possibly 1973 or even 1972. There have been a number of age revisions on various Caribbean players from different nations, and some of the age falsification has been accomplished with the complicity of some scouts. What makes me skeptical is that Jones was playing in the WS at age 19, was a regular at 20 and a minor star, at the least, at age 21, but he never really grew from the point he was at in what I am told is his early twenties. This is not a typical growth pattern; most players that are in the majors at 20-21 show TREMENDOUS growth; even a guy who's a 22 year old rookie shows far more growth than Jones did from his "age 21" season. Jones went up a bit, and down a bit, having good years and bad years, but he really didn't show the kind of explosive growth that a 20 year old position player in the major leagues tends to show.

Perhaps I'm off base on this. Not every 20 year old in the big leagues is Mickey Mantle. Some are Ruben Sierra or Cesar Cedeno, but those guys had documentable problems that one could point to as growth-stiflers. (I'm skeptical of Cedeno's real age as well.) But I find it unusual for a guy like Jones to come into MLB at age 19, be a regular at 20, yet never grow significantly from that point. If you told me that Jones was really born in 1973, his career progression would make far more sense.

Excellent point, I had not thought of that but it makes sense. To believe it, however, someone like Andruw himself will have to own up.

Considering Edmonds again, I think he became the hitter he was in spite of his uppercut and not because of it. That's because I was taught to swing level. Once age starts to settle in, the effect of an uppercut swing magnifies the effect of aging reflexes.

STLCards2

08-15-2009, 10:56 AM

And Oscar Charleston makes it 8.

I would say Billy Hamolton makes it a pretty clear "9", but after that, it is up for grabs - with Edmonds being in the running.. with Ashnurn, Carey, and some other guys.

baseball junkie

08-15-2009, 08:45 PM

I'm not so sure I'm putting Max Carey or Richie Ashburn ahead of Kenny Lofton on my list -- but perhaps I'm just a moron.

STLCards2

08-15-2009, 08:59 PM

I'm not so sure I'm putting Max Carey or Richie Ashburn ahead of Kenny Lofton on my list -- but perhaps I'm just a moron.

WAR agrees with you and sees Lofton as a borderline HOFer, at worst.

Joltin' Joe

08-15-2009, 09:27 PM

I'd prefer Jim Edmonds. Much more complete player and I loved his style of play.
Where Jones nonchalant way would sometimes irk me. Edmonds only had one gear and it was "Full Speed".

To be fair to Jones, a lot of people think he was nonchalant because of his perpetual stupid smirk and for some crazy reason, he often looked like he was loafing when he was running down ropes. With all that "nonchalantness", he still had the most insane range(especially side to side) during his peak.

Cougar

08-15-2009, 10:53 PM

I'm not so sure I'm putting Max Carey or Richie Ashburn ahead of Kenny Lofton on my list -- but perhaps I'm just a moron.

Lofton is very underrated...he's in a class with those guys. I'd have to think on whether he's better or not. (Ashburn is a favorite, which probably biases me a bit.)

Lofton is a guy that merits much more HOF consideration than he seems likely to get.