A juicer already in the hall? [Archive]

brett

07-30-2009, 06:59 PM

He does have to be taken seriously these days with statements he makes:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4367025

thoughts?

I'm gonna guess, if what he is saying is true, that he is talking about Rickey.

I had suspicions of Rickey for quite a while. He has the longevity. He has the physique, and when Jim Rice mentioned (with Rickey standing by) that the two of them got there without steroids, Rickey kind of grimaced.

Who knows. It could be Reggie Jackson. He lifted weights and lived in California and played with Canseco.

George Brett lived in California, but he regrets that he never decided to use weight training to extend his career. He might have at the very end but he didn't really sport big guns. Neither did Boggs. I don't suspect Brett or Boggs.

Puckett was suspect with his sudden power gain in '86. Molitor came back from potential career ending injuries. Fisk played a long time after he should have been retired. Maybe Eckersley.

STLCards2

07-30-2009, 07:01 PM

How many HOFers are close to Canseco's age? I think that is the basis for the assumption.

Pretty sure Canseco has made accusations regarding players that were not in his prime era.

Also, there are lot of guys who played from the mid 80's to late 90's in the HOF:
Puckett, Molitor, Smith, Eckersley, Ripken, Gwynn, etc. The assumption to me is: Henderson has just been inducted and that would be a logical time for Canseco to make that sort of accusation.

As far as the actual question, I don't think that MLB will do anything if it turned out that a guy in the HOF gets exposed after-the-fact. They will probably ignore the issue, or make a "we didn't know, nothing we can do about it now" issue. Not sure that the wrong thing, either.

But man-alive, Canseco is a weasle. The only thing as bad as a lyer or a cheater is a nark, who looks forwards to the demise and suffering of others. He will take any opportunity possible to smear people's names - guilty or innocent. Yes, many of the names Canseco has pegged have been right on, but I am sure he is/has been wrong about some of the people he has fingerpointed. If that is true, he should be viewed as slandeorous.

ol' aches and pains

07-30-2009, 07:23 PM

What, only one? :think:

OleMissCub

07-30-2009, 07:46 PM

Why are you assuming that? Because he was just inducted and has been on people's minds lately (including Canseco's?), or do you have some evidence?

Do I have evidence?? lol. yes I sure do, I'll be taking it to the NY Times tomorrow morning.

I said if I had to guess. Mainly my guess was based on the fact that Jose played with Rickey for several years. Alot of the "info" that Jose seems to have thrown out there concerns guys he played with.

STLCards2

07-30-2009, 07:48 PM

Alot of the "info" that Jose seems to have thrown out there concerns guys he played with.

This is true.

Can't wait for the NYT tomorrow!:D

Ubiquitous

07-30-2009, 07:52 PM

Canseco after he wrote his first book announced that Rickey never took steroids.

If I had to guess at who in the HoF took PEDs I would guess:
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Whitey Ford
Frank Robinson
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Mike Schmidt
Lou Brock
Juan Marichal
Willie McCovey
Orlando Cepeda
Willie Stargell
Jim Rice
Fergie Jenkins
Bob Gibson

Ubiquitous

07-30-2009, 08:25 PM

Oh, and Reggie Jackson.

brett

07-30-2009, 08:36 PM

Oh, and Reggie Jackson.

Why not Carlton Fisk?

Blackhat

07-30-2009, 09:03 PM

jjpm74

07-30-2009, 09:10 PM

Canseco is probably full of it, but if a juicer actually is in the HOF, it's probably Nolan Ryan.

STLCards2

07-30-2009, 09:12 PM

Canseco is probably full of it, but if a juicer actually is in the HOF, it's probably Nolan Ryan.

Based on what? Being productive and old at the same time? Pretty circumstantial for such a confident claim.

Joltin' Joe

07-30-2009, 09:21 PM

Is Canseco actually talking about juice or just any old PED such as Greenies? :ooo:

Brad Harris

07-30-2009, 09:23 PM

Eckersley was Canseco's teammate for years and if Canseco had an opportunity to see any player, he had more opportunity to observe Eck than any other contemporary. Consider that Canseco was a teammate from Eck's mid-career crisis through his glory years. Perhaps Canseco credits Eck's transformation from washed up starter to ace closer to roids? Just a thought. I will never presume to know what Jose Canseco is thinking, except that he thinks of himself first.

DoubleX

07-30-2009, 09:33 PM

It wouldn't surprise me. What really bothers me is sanctimonious writers who have already drawn a line in the sand and say they won't vote for any PED users. That's really just an ignorant and lazy approach that is based only on exposure and ignores that they could very well have elected PED users and may very well vote for PED users that haven't been outed.

I can also find reasons to be suspicious of some recent Hall of Famers. I don't meant to indict these players, just to say that you never know.

- Rickey Henderson: He was a member of the Bash Brother Oakland Athletics with Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire; played another year with the Athletics during the BALCO years; led the league in steals at age 39; and hung on until age 44.

- Dennis Eckersley: Like Henderson, was on those Bash Brother Athletics and after years of being an inconsistent starter, comes to Oakland and suddenly transforms into an unhittable closer.

- Ryne Sandberg: Hits 14 homeruns combined in 1993-1994 (though was limited by injury), retires for a years and returns at age 36 to hit 25.

- Cal Ripken: OPS+ shows him to be a below average hitter starting at age 31, posting an OPS+ below 100 in five of the next seven years and reaching only as high as 107 during that span. Then suddenly at age 38 and at the height of the steroids era in 1999, Ripken posts a 143 OPS+. Seems a little odd (though it was the first season where he got some rest).

- Carlton Fisk: Hung around until age 45, which is remarkable for a player of any position, but a catcher in particular. Posted a career high 37 homeruns at age 37, 11 more than he hit in any other season, and hit as many as 18 at age 43 (again, pretty remarkable considering his position).

Again, I'm not meaning to accuse these players, just pointing out that PED use has been so pervasive, and for decades really, that you can't just draw a convenient line and hope everyone on one side is clean.

STLCards2

07-30-2009, 09:41 PM

- Dennis Eckersley: Like Henderson, was on those Bash Brother Athletics and after years of being an inconsistent starter, comes to Oakland and suddenly transforms into an unhittable closer.

-.

Yes, but he was a very, very good starter for about 3-4 years. Not suprising for a very good starter (when healthy) to pitch extremely well from the bullpen. Not saying he couldn't have been using, but this is pretty circumstantial.

SavoyBG

07-30-2009, 10:01 PM

But man-alive, Canseco is a weasle. The only thing as bad as a lyer or a cheater is a nark, who looks forwards to the demise and suffering of others. He will take any opportunity possible to smear people's names - guilty or innocent. Yes, many of the names Canseco has pegged have been right on, but I am sure he is/has been wrong about some of the people he has fingerpointed. If that is true, he should be viewed as slandeorous.

Everybody Canseco has named has either been proven to be a user, or has just not respsonded. He hasn't lied about anybody, and your take that a narc is as bad as a liar or a cheater is preposterous. If it wasn't for Jose this thing would have been even worse and certainly would still now be going on just as much as ever.

At least now we have a good explanation for Ortiz reverting back to his pre Boston form this season. He probably decided to stop using before he got caught (again).

jjpm74

07-30-2009, 10:07 PM

Based on what? Being productive and old at the same time? Pretty circumstantial for such a confident claim.

Naturally.

I thought I was clear that I thought the whole claim was silly. Guess not. ;)

OleMissCub

07-30-2009, 10:16 PM

I have my suspicions about Ripken.

jjpm74

07-30-2009, 10:24 PM

I have my suspicions about Ripken.

Maybe it was Lou Gehrig. He did get that weird disease.

But I think it was Professor Crumb in the study with the candelabra.

jjpm74

07-30-2009, 10:28 PM

In all seriousness, I hope someone in the NBHoFM did juice and is outed. It would end this stupid witch hunt once and for all and force the writers to actually consider the players from this generation at face value instead of the holier than thou no juicers in the HOF approach.

Los Bravos

07-30-2009, 10:59 PM

As far as the actual question, I don't think that MLB will do anything if it turned out that a guy in the HOF gets exposed after-the-fact. They will probably ignore the issue, or make a "we didn't know, nothing we can do about it now" issue. Not sure that the wrong thing, either.Agreed, on both counts.But man-alive, Canseco is a weasle. The only thing as bad as a lyer or a cheater is a nark, who looks forwards to the demise and suffering of others. He will take any opportunity possible to smear people's names - guilty or innocent. Yes, many of the names Canseco has pegged have been right on, but I am sure he is/has been wrong about some of the people he has fingerpointed. If that is true, he should be viewed as slandeorous.That, too. I love the way he just hangs around, trying to pretend he's this endless source of info, which he doles out piecemeal.Based on what? Being productive and old at the same time? Pretty circumstantial for such a confident claim.His finding an extra gear after his arrival in Dallas coinciding with his working with admitted 'roider Tom House raises some eyebrows.

I don't really have a dog in that hunt, but it's been at the low murmurr stage for years and years.

Can't remember who, but someone around here has flatly and openly accused Ryan of using in these debates.

White Knight

07-31-2009, 01:21 AM

At least now we have a good explanation for Ortiz reverting back to his pre Boston form this season. He probably decided to stop using before he got caught (again).

What I don't understand is how are these players not getting caught after 2004? Don't they test for steroids randomly at least two or three times a year? Are these guys slipping $10,000 to the testers to use their own pee?

White Knight

07-31-2009, 01:23 AM

Henderson said a few days ago on steroids "They kept that s- a secret from me. I wish they had told me. My God, could you imagine Rickey on 'roids? Oh, baby, look out!"

BS that no one ever offered him steroids and kept it a secret, total BS. Everyone was offered it, especially those who were stars and on teams with Canseco. Rickey is a major suspect.

Ubiquitous

07-31-2009, 03:16 AM

Except again Canseco said Rickey didn't use steroids.

Also Dave Stewart when asked to comment on Jose's allegations didn't name names but did say that there were steroid users but that Eck and Rickey were clean.

SavoyBG

07-31-2009, 07:10 AM

What I don't understand is how are these players not getting caught after 2004? Don't they test for steroids randomly at least two or three times a year? Are these guys slipping $10,000 to the testers to use their own pee?

Why, would that surprise you?

The users are using a variety of ways to not get caught. Most were taking maskers that would prevent a positive test if they were taken correctly. Some of the guys who did get caught were because they messed up the regimen. I'm ure some paid somebody to beat the urine test. In football, LT said he would use a syringe full of somebody else's urine that he would smuggle into the stall for the test.

brett

07-31-2009, 07:20 AM

TwoOutHit

07-31-2009, 07:30 AM

I would guess Henderson. Simply because I don't like him. :D

brett

07-31-2009, 07:38 AM

What I don't understand is how are these players not getting caught after 2004? Don't they test for steroids randomly at least two or three times a year? Are these guys slipping $10,000 to the testers to use their own pee?

Here are a few PEDS that are out there.

1) HGH. This is untestable, and can be prescribed lawfully for injuries. Some have stated that Pujols used HGH to recover from shoulder surgery. In 10 years, I bet they will be giving HGH to everyone after most surgeries just to quicken recovery time. It also can help you recover from workouts and overuse. HGH is not a steroid.

2) Testosterone based. The primary purpose for this is to gain muscle. I have read journals from guys who say that one cycle will permanently change you. A couple guys who worked out for years, stuck at 190 pounds for a long time. Did one cycle and came out rock solid 210 and didn't lose much. If a guy is not getting bigger, I don't know if this makes sense. It can be masked, but current tests CAN detect the masking agent. It is an anabolic steroid.

3) Testosterone precursers like Andro are now illegal. They really just provide the raw materials for the body's natural test production, and they don't really have near the effects. Some can boost natural testosterone just by finding missing components in their diet. Since the production of testosterone from these goes through normal body pathways, there is not an abnormal balance of testosterone with estrogen so it really is not testable, though again, like #2 above, if we just want to suspect everyone with high test levels...

4) Stimulants. Testable but out of your system within 24-48 hours. If they tested guys right before games, I would bet almost anything that 2/3 of major leaguers would be positive for variations of ephedra, speed, etc. I am not sure if Pseudoephedrine is banned in MLB. The Olympics removed the ban, at least for some sports.

5) Special steroids like Winstrol that build muscle characteristics. Winstrol can make you permanantley faster and more explosive, but continued cycles tend to keep you closer to peak. Imagine a guy doing a round of Winstrol and a round of Testosterone, and he permanantley cuts his 60 yard time from 7.1 to 6.8 seconds or 6.9 to 6.6. That can be the difference in getting drafted or not, or getting a college scholarship. After the cycle is done, your not going to test for that.

I am not trying to be comprehensive. Please correct me or fill in missing info.

brett

07-31-2009, 07:43 AM

I have my suspicions about Ripken.

Ripken didn't grow like McGwire though-they were both about the same size as rookies. And I doubt he lifted weights that much.

I'd like to see Ryan or Ripken even lifting weights.

I'll agree that Ryan was the first power pitcher not to lose his strikeout rate in the early to mid 30s. Every power pitcher before had a sudden loss of leg strength in their mid 30s. Some learned to use other skills, but Ryan was throwing just as hard at 45.

Lars1220

07-31-2009, 07:46 AM

Captain Cold Nose

07-31-2009, 07:52 AM

Ripken didn't grow like McGwire though-they were both about the same size as rookies. And I doubt he lifted weights that much.

I'd like to see Ryan or Ripken even lifting weights.

I'll agree that Ryan was the first power pitcher not to lose his strikeout rate in the early to mid 30s. Every power pitcher before had a sudden loss of leg strength in their mid 30s. Some learned to use other skills, but Ryan was throwing just as hard at 45.

Ryan did a commercial for Advil late in his career. I believe it showed him lifting weights as part of his workout routine. Building muscle does not necessarily mean trying to build up power.

Captain Cold Nose

07-31-2009, 07:54 AM

Maybe it is Cal Ripken Jr. who Jose is calling out because he has always resented the way Cal has been treated by the American public as apple pie and everything else.

Implying Ripken Jr. took the juice is the only thing keeping Jose relatively sane these days, knowing American public has been championing a cheater as a national sporting icon.

Right, that is exactly why Jose Canseco has a problem with Ripken. He can't stand to see the sport he put so much into ruined by cheaters. :crazy:rolleyes:

I wonder if the crack dealers are worried if their customers can make rent this month.

Paul Wendt

07-31-2009, 09:22 AM

I'll agree that Ryan was the first power pitcher not to lose his strikeout rate in the early to mid 30s. Every power pitcher before had a sudden loss of leg strength in their mid 30s. Some learned to use other skills, but Ryan was throwing just as hard at 45.

Steve Carlton was 35 to 38 years old 1980-83 when he increased strikeout rate to one per inning, surpassed Ryan atop the career list, and was celebrated as a fitness wonder.

At the same time Ryan was considered to be over the usual hill. His strikeout was rate down, as well as his innings. He was 39 in 1986 which seems to mark his rejuvenation as a strikeout pitcher.

jalbright

07-31-2009, 10:13 AM

My reaction to this thread is slimeball Canseco gets in the press with his main way to get attention. He is deliberately vague, and once again, it motivates at least some people to go looking for witches on the faintest of evidence--and the whole scene disgusts me.

baseball junkie

07-31-2009, 10:53 AM

I'll say this, if a clean Cal Ripken Jr. didn't exist, it would be necessary for MLB to create one. :laugh

nerfan

07-31-2009, 10:58 AM

Good post, Brett. I don't know why people lump in HGH with steroids... the health effects are not nearly as bad and it's perfectly legal when prescribed.

And andro was legal when McGwire used it. Are you going to punish Burleigh Grimes and Stan Coveleski for throwing spitballs when they were legal?

JDD

07-31-2009, 12:05 PM

The only juicer in the HOF is located in the cafeteria.

White Knight

07-31-2009, 01:19 PM

Good post, Brett. I don't know why people lump in HGH with steroids... the health effects are not nearly as bad and it's perfectly legal when prescribed.

HGH is actually worse, in some ways. If you have cancer or pre-cancerous cells, it multiplies those cells too. Steroids will not do this, and don't get dangerous until you build your testosterone way above normal levels. In fact, if you have low testosterone and don't abuse it, it's good for you and can be prescribed legally.

White Knight

07-31-2009, 01:22 PM

Why, would that surprise you?

The users are using a variety of ways to not get caught. Most were taking maskers that would prevent a positive test if they were taken correctly. Some of the guys who did get caught were because they messed up the regimen. I'm ure some paid somebody to beat the urine test. In football, LT said he would use a syringe full of somebody else's urine that he would smuggle into the stall for the test.

Quick question on maskers: Do these guys have to constantly be on masking agents, since tests are random?

Also, do they test in the off-season? If a player does it in October, will it be gone by February?

Ubiquitous

07-31-2009, 03:25 PM

Ripken didn't grow like McGwire though-they were both about the same size as rookies. And I doubt he lifted weights that much.

I'd like to see Ryan or Ripken even lifting weights.

I'll agree that Ryan was the first power pitcher not to lose his strikeout rate in the early to mid 30s. Every power pitcher before had a sudden loss of leg strength in their mid 30s. Some learned to use other skills, but Ryan was throwing just as hard at 45.

I probably wouldn't call him a workout guru like modern steroid users but he did workout and lift weights, so did Tom Seaver. In Tom's early days the used to give him carp about him lifting weights.

STLCards2

07-31-2009, 06:08 PM

The only juicer in the HOF is located in the cafeteria.

Do you really believe that?

Lars1220

07-31-2009, 09:55 PM

No, what Canseco is taking satisfaction in is the hypocrisy of baseball fans for calling him out a steroid cheat - when he knows there is one HOfer who is a juicer.

Right, that is exactly why Jose Canseco has a problem with Ripken. He can't stand to see the sport he put so much into ruined by cheaters. :crazy:rolleyes:

I wonder if the crack dealers are worried if their customers can make rent this month.

west coast orange and black

08-01-2009, 10:44 AM

^
"at least."

canseco believes that he is aware of at least one hofer who is a juicer.
i agree with him.

west coast orange and black

08-01-2009, 10:47 AM

"Canseco claims that when a certain Hall of Famer is exposed as a user, 'baseball will have a big problem on its hands.' Wrong. Then the era gains even more clarity, people begin to discard their moralistic prattle, Bonds gets his rightful place in the Hall, and others follow."
-bruce jenkins, san francisco chronicle sports writer, from his 3-dot lounge column, saturday, 01 august 2009

west coast orange and black

08-01-2009, 10:49 AM

don't know how bonds would be affected, but the discarding of the "moralistic prattle" would be greatly welcomed by me.

brett

08-01-2009, 01:12 PM

Quick question on maskers: Do these guys have to constantly be on masking agents, since tests are random?

Also, do they test in the off-season? If a player does it in October, will it be gone by February?

Question 1: masked forms of testosterone are going to have another hormone in a balanced ratio to make the user's ratios look "natural". The test for test is basically if test is high, but other horomones that are turned into test, or that are produced by the same process that produces test in the body are not proportionately high.

Its kind of like this. Say a restaurant claimed that they baked their own cakes (natural testosterone) but there is no flour in their pantry or there are no eggshells in their trash.

Question 2: rough guess, it would not show up in a test within 2 weeks for sure. In fact, one might find abnormally low testosterone levels.

Ubiquitous

08-01-2009, 02:54 PM

Those aren't the only masking agents. Basically these tests look for certain things in your sample based on prior programming. Think of it as one test is always looking for circles, another for squares, and another for triangles. Then let us say that circles are anabolic steroids. What the masking agent does is turn that circle into say a oval. Therefore when the test goes looking for circles it won't find any because they are all ovals. The steroids are not invisible they simply look different and the test isn't looking for that look. That is why WADA keeps back up samples so they can go back and look at them again when they have discovered new masking agents.

Ytown Tribe fan

08-01-2009, 03:19 PM

Look at the guns on this guy! Have you ever seen such bulk and muscle definition, and look at the "roid mask" on that kisser.

This cheater is a 'roider if I ever saw one.

White Knight

08-02-2009, 12:17 AM

Um, who? :)

west coast orange and black

08-02-2009, 01:00 AM

yeah, buck certainly was a stud, wasn't he?

Honus Wagner Rules

08-02-2009, 03:16 AM

Look at the guns on this guy! Have you ever seen such bulk and muscle definition, and look at the "roid mask" on that kisser.

This cheater is a 'roider if I ever saw one.

Looks like Willie had extremely low body fat in his prime.

CircleChange11

08-02-2009, 04:36 AM

He does have to be taken seriously these days with statements he makes:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4367025

thoughts?

I'm gonna guess, if what he is saying is true, that he is talking about Rickey.

I don't think he means Rickey. Rickey avoids the weight room because he says he gets too muscular and it slows him down (Rickey said it, not me). Rickey is just 'one of those guys'.

Since the #1 benefit of steroids is recovery, my bet would be Canseco is talking about Ripken and 'The Streak'.

Canseco doesn't fart around making accusations that people don;t care about. If Rickey used steroids, many wouldn't be all that up in arms, but if it were Cal ... then that would be a story. Rickey doesn't have a youth league named after him, but Rickey thinks he should. *grin*

In all seriousness, whenever I see a guy at an advanced age (in MLB terms) start working out very hard, while not breaking down, and still 'putting up the numbers', a red flag goes up. That's not to say I automatically assume, but definitely a red flag. Aging players need more 'off days' not more 'workouts'.

It wasn't just California and Texas players using during the 'Canseco Era'. The effectiveness of steroids spread like wildfire.

Shoot, Rickey on steroids would be a physical specimen of the Herschal Walker ilk. He'd make 50/50 seem like a real possibility and just not a pipe dream for Eric Davis.

In response to the question of Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken lifting weights ... Geez, Ryan invented strength-training for pitchers (by invented I mean he made it 'popular' and 'acceptable' ... the man was a training fiend) and Ripken trained with a personal trainer during his later years, garnering a reputation as one that outworked everyone else. With an aging elite athlete is outworking all the other athletes, that sends up question marks ... especially given [1] the era/years we're talking about, and [2] the #1 benefit of steroids being recovery and extending the length of one's peak performance. Steroids beneift muscle building by increasing the number of progressive workouts one can do consistently. The more progressive (more poundage or more reps) one can do consistently, combined with nutrition, leads to more muscle. GH on the other hand is in a class of it's own ... some guys even experience "bone growth" leading to disfigured elbows, 'caveman jaws' (spaces between teeth that weren;t there before), etc. I highly doubt Ryan was a PED user, but Ripken would not floor me ... surprise me, yes ... floor me ... no.

AstrosFan

08-03-2009, 03:32 PM

Canseco's teammates who are in the Hall:

Rickey Henderson
Reggie Jackson
Wade Boggs
Don Sutton
Dennis Eckersley
Goose Gossage
Nolan Ryan

It doesn't have to be a teammate, but there are some names to consider, some of which have been brought up already.

PhanInPhlorida

08-03-2009, 03:43 PM

I would probably go with Reggie Jackson as my steroid user already in the Hall. But the point that was brought up earlier about there not having to be only one already in is something to consider.
Mike Schmidt admittadly took greenies which is considered a ped, right?

OleMissCub

08-03-2009, 05:50 PM

Looks like Willie had extremely low body fat in his prime.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/willie11.jpg

Honus Wagner Rules

08-03-2009, 06:36 PM

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/willie11.jpg

Wow, that's easily under 10% body fat for sure. I saw more like 5%-6%.

brett

08-03-2009, 07:36 PM

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/willie11.jpg

That's just a damn athletic young physique.

The next time someone accuses a player of using just because of what he looks like, I am going to post pictures of myself-not pretty, but I've been asked if I used. If someone CHANGES rapidly, then OK.

538280

08-03-2009, 07:36 PM

and Ripken trained with a personal trainer during his later years, garnering a reputation as one that outworked everyone else. With an aging elite athlete is outworking all the other athletes, that sends up question marks

Why is that? You can work out as hard as you want at any age at which a player may be playing competitive baseball...I know people who I've worked out with who are in their late 30s or 40s and work out constantly, get results, and are stronger than they've ever been. It's entirely possible that when he was younger Ripken wasn't really into working out and just decided to take it up when he got older. Old players can work just as hard as younger guys it's just that their bodies are at a level when it's harder to get comparable results. That's where steroids can change things.

I think Ripken is like any other player, a probable steroid user. Doesn't change the way I think about him one bit.

Steroids beneift muscle building by increasing the number of progressive workouts one can do consistently. The more progressive (more poundage or more reps) one can do consistently, combined with nutrition, leads to more muscle. .

Maybe steroids can increase the amount of workouts one can do without muscle fatigue but muscles to gain size always need some rest between workouts. The main benefit of steroids is that they increase the body's ability to gain muscle from workouts. It's more about gaining from the workouts you do do rather than working out more and more. This explains a lot about the way anabolic steroids really work:

http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/hormones/anabolic-steroids.php

Ubiquitous

08-03-2009, 07:47 PM

No, you can't work out as hard as you want at any age. It doesn't work that way. Plus I don't think you read your link. Since in your link they mention the possible benefits to recovery.

538280

08-03-2009, 08:14 PM

No, you can't work out as hard as you want at any age. It doesn't work that way. Plus I don't think you read your link. Since in your link they mention the possible benefits to recovery.

Well, not at ANY age, obviously. But as I said I was referring to ages at which a player might still be playing in MLB. And yes as I said also steroids can speed up the time it takes to recover from workouts but there is far more to it than just that, it is increasing the benefits you get from working out as well as allowing you to work out more.

brett

08-03-2009, 08:17 PM

Steroids help recovery. Here's the problem that they solve. A muscle actually has a very quick roughly 48 hour recovery response to training. The growth cycle is over in 48 hours, but inflammation may last a week meaning that to train the muscle effectively you have to dig deeper into an inflammatory response that causes whole body breakdown due to rising cortisol levels.

Growth and healing are two different things. The growth cycle is OVER in about 48 hours, but the healing may take a week, so people are losing their muscle while they are healing. That's why a lot of drug free weight trainers have a hard time deciding how frequently to train, ranging from training a muscle every 2 days, to every 10 days! I can lift on one day, come back 2 days later and be stronger! but if I do that for 2 weeks, I will have accumulated enough microinjuries to my muscles and tendons that my cortisol levels will be causing muscle breakdown.

The PRIMARY effect of steroids is to slow down the rate of muscle breakdown during the extra days off, and the second effect is to shorten the healing cycle. Testosterone is called anabolic, but what it really does is slow down the natural daily LOSS of protein from the muscle. They DO help you push a little harder too I've heard because of the hormonal-psychological connection. I will look into it, but I am not sure if anabolic steroids actually increase the rate of muscle protein being made, they just slow down the normal daily breakdown.

EdTarbusz

08-03-2009, 08:19 PM

Mike Schmidt admittadly took greenies which is considered a ped, right?

Based on my observations in the 80s, I don't think that greenies are performance enhancing.

When I was in the Navy in the mid 80s, the 80s equivilent of greenies were easily obtainable on both of my ships and a lot of guys took them regularly, and I don't remember thinking that they enhance anyones performance. They were more effective in helping guysachieve their normal performance, though (esp if a guy was tired or hungover). I tend to think of greenies as performance enabling rather than performance enhancing as steroids are.

brett

08-03-2009, 08:28 PM

Based on my observations in the 80s, I don't think that greenies are performance enhancing.

When I was in the Navy in the mid 80s, the 80s equivilent of greenies were easily obtainable on both of my ships and a lot of guys took them regularly, and I don't remember thinking that they enhance anyones performance. They were more effective in helping guysachieve their normal performance, though (esp if a guy was tired or hungover). I tend to think of greenies as performance enabling rather than performance enhancing as steroids are.

They don't improve speed, strength, and they can help mental focus if you don't overdo it, and they can increase longer term endurance which never happens in baseball. Mostly guys who take them end up taking them, because they interfere with sleep, and burn you out, and eventually you need them just to do your normal activity.

They CAN help you work out in the off-season. If a player is taking them in-season, they are basically going to eventually need them just to get out of bed, and I bet they would not help overall performance.

CircleChange11

08-03-2009, 08:35 PM

Why is that? You can work out as hard as you want at any age at which a player may be playing competitive baseball...I know people who I've worked out with who are in their late 30s or 40s and work out constantly, get results, and are stronger than they've ever been.

That would describe me.

You are most certainly correct that if an person of increasing age picks up weight-training, they will definitely see a benefit. My commentary was more on the intensity of Ripken's workout and the statement that he was "outworking everyone else".

My friends that have used steroids for either personal goals (when you strength-train for 20 years as they have, you get to your 'limit', and they simply cannot function without working out) or for strongman/powerlifting stuff, repeatedly talk about being able to repeat "brutal workout after brutal workout". After 2 decades of strength-training, they tend to know their bodies rather well. They also discovered that muscles recover 'quickly' whereas the joints do not, and they either schedule off periods for when they are less competitiv or alon use the 'enhancement' when they are getting into 'PR territory" (PR = Personal Record)

We're also talking about everyday guys, likely like me, that workout and then don't anything too typically intense for the rest of the day. That doesn;t describe a professional athlete.

I highly doubt I am able at 36, to reproduce those 6-hours of basketball marathons I used to do in high school (winner stays, leave and you lose your spot).

Cycling may be the sport with the biggest PED problem (other than bodybuilding, if that's a sport), which ofte includes steroids. Those guys certainly do not want muscle mass, but they need recovery.

Not everyone that takes steroids is looking to gain 20 pounds of muscle.

I think Ripken is like any other player, a probable steroid user. Doesn't change the way I think about him one bit.

I wouldn't state that he is a 'probable' user, but a 'possible' user. It definitely affects the way I think about 'The Streak' ... and that's primarily wal CRJ is known for.

Maybe steroids can increase the amount of workouts one can do without muscle fatigue but muscles to gain size always need some rest between workouts. The main benefit of steroids is that they increase the body's ability to gain muscle from workouts. It's more about gaining from the workouts you do do rather than working out more and more. This explains a lot about the way anabolic steroids really work:

Brett described this rather well.

Also, different steroids are designed for different things. For example, a 'weight-division' athlete would use steroids designed for strength and recovery, but without the gain in muscle mass, since that would be counter-productive for their goals.

Most guys that are wanting drastic increases in muscle mass, and have the means are going to stack various steroid compounds, as well as, 'estrogen blockers' and perhaps even GH (if they can afford it).

CircleChange11

08-03-2009, 08:40 PM

Look at the guns on this guy! Have you ever seen such bulk and muscle definition, and look at the "roid mask" on that kisser.

This cheater is a 'roider if I ever saw one.

That is a perfect example of lean muscle and 'high vascularity' ("veins") making one appear much larger than they are. Mays also likely has the "full muscle beliies combined with small joints" that is characterist of "fast-twitch monsters".

Wilie Mays is listed as 5'11 180.

What's that today? An average shortstop?

AstrosFan

08-03-2009, 10:41 PM

That's just a damn athletic young physique.

The next time someone accuses a player of using just because of what he looks like, I am going to post pictures of myself-not pretty, but I've been asked if I used. If someone CHANGES rapidly, then OK.

I might deliberately provoke you, Mr. Banner.

Los Bravos

08-03-2009, 11:38 PM

I tend to think of greenies as performance enabling rather than performance enhancing as steroids are.Bingo. Glad to see someone else feels the same way.

west coast orange and black

08-04-2009, 12:52 AM

edtarbusz: I tend to think of greenies as performance enabling rather than performance enhancing as steroids are.

do sunflowers lean towards the light or away from the darkness?

PVNICK

08-04-2009, 05:19 AM

brett

08-04-2009, 08:32 AM

edtarbusz: I tend to think of greenies as performance enabling rather than performance enhancing as steroids are.

do sunflowers lean towards the light or away from the darkness?

The thing is you could legally take pseudoephedrine and a cup of coffee and get the "wake up call" of greenies. Especially since I've seen hockey players take 24 sudaphed at once before a game.

Greenies may let you play, and go out on the town late too, but they are not going to help a baseball player in season.

Again they CAN definitely help power off-season workouts, both for muscle and conditioning, but they are actually catabolic to muscle at least somewhat (so is adrenaline).

538280

08-04-2009, 09:06 AM

I will look into it, but I am not sure if anabolic steroids actually increase the rate of muscle protein being made, they just slow down the normal daily breakdown.

Thanks for the explanation very much. A problem I have always had in weight training is exactly what you describe-how often to work out. I usually take at least two days of rest after I work out a body part. I have found that if I wait longer than that or less than that I usually struggle to make any progress. Also I believe that steroids do increase the rate of muscle protein being built as well. This is from the link I posted:

"The effect of anabolic steroids is to increase the body's ability to use protein to make muscle. Anabolic steroids help send the amino acids back to the muscles. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins needed by the muscles to grow. Anabolic steroids like testosterone help build muscles and discourage fat buildup."

CircleChange11

08-04-2009, 12:01 PM

The problem with looking at the body as a 'collection of body parts' is that your systems don't work that way. IMO, only bodybuilders need to use 'bodypart workouts', but their goal and methods are very different than strength-trainers. The focus is not so much on the amount of weight but how it's beinmg lifted ('flexed' into motion). Really, almost everything they do is different from regular people.

Namely, your nervous and immunse systems need overall 'body rest'.

For the rest of us, full body workouts, followed by a coupla days of "complete rest" is likely the optimal way to grow toward general strength increases and added muscle. Get stronger in the gym, bigger in the kitchen.

AG2004

08-04-2009, 12:24 PM

How many HOFers are close to Canseco's age? I think that is the basis for the assumption.

That would rule out Pud Galvin.

Ralph Kiner admitted to using PEDs -- the team trainer gave them to him.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html

nerfan

08-04-2009, 12:28 PM

Yeah, Pud Galvin chewed bull testicles, so he's juicin'.

scaffolds

08-08-2009, 09:53 AM

In Jose Canseco latest interview he claims that there's an a Hall of Famer that was a steroid user (when he was playing) that no one talks about it. People will be surprised of who he is talking about it.

jalbright

08-08-2009, 09:57 AM

We already have a thread on this topic, and so the threads have been merged.

scaffolds

08-08-2009, 10:28 AM

Canseco is probably full of it, but if a juicer actually is in the HOF, it's probably Nolan Ryan.

No Canseco isn't full of it about this, but you're right he's talking about Nolan Ryan.

Blackout

08-08-2009, 10:35 AM

no he's talking about Ricky

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 04:44 PM

no he's talking about Ricky

Direct quote -

"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form,"

-Jose Canseco in a July, 2009 (post- HOF induction) interview with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

So either: 1. Canseco is obviously referring to somebody other than Henderson, or 2. Canseco has been caught in a direct lie regarding steroids and can no longer be considered a credible source on the topic.

CircleChange11

08-08-2009, 06:49 PM

Yeah, Pud Galvin chewed bull testicles, so he's juicin'.

... and they say steroids are dangerous. :D

nerfan

08-08-2009, 06:55 PM

... and they say steroids are dangerous. :D

Pud DID die at the age of 45 due to a catarrh of the stomach. Who knows? Perhaps the testicles contributed to his death.

Then again, he's a marginal Hall of Famer, so maybe without the testicles he'd become as remembered as, say, Tony Mullane.

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 07:00 PM

Pud DID die at the age of 45 due to a catarrh of the stomach. Who knows? Perhaps the testicles contributed to his death.

Then again, he's a marginal Hall of Famer, so maybe without the testicles he'd become as remembered as, say, Tony Mullane.

Fair or unfair, cow testicles or no cow testicles, with 350+ wins, he was never going to be never be percieved on the same level as Tony Mullane. Articles show writers referencing 300 wins as being a big milestone as far back as the 1920's.

nerfan

08-08-2009, 07:11 PM

Fair or unfair, cow testicles or no cow testicles, with 350+ wins, he was never going to be never be percieved on the same level as Tony Mullane. Articles show writers referencing 300 wins as being a big milestone as far back as the 1920's.

That's very true. But without his testicles, I'm saying that he might have won only 310 games. He might then be perceived as Bobby Mathews.

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 07:17 PM

That's very true. But without his testicles, I'm saying that he might have won only 310 games. He might then be perceived as Bobby Mathews.

Find me a study that connects cow testicles and performance enhancement, and I will agree with that statement! :D

nerfan

08-08-2009, 07:22 PM

Find me a study that connects cow testicles and performance enhancement, and I will agree with that statement! :D

Correction to myself: It was monkey testicles. And it came in liquid form... eww.

And it was advertised as, and I quote "a spirit boosting elixir". So it at least had to have some psychological impact on Pud.

Los Bravos

08-08-2009, 07:55 PM

I believe this is a new record for mentions of the word "testicles" in a thread here.

One that I hope is never broken.

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 07:57 PM

Correction to myself: It was monkey testicles.
.

Oh, that changes everything. Kick him out of the Hall!!!:laugh

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 09:36 PM

Direct quote -

"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form,"

-Jose Canseco in a July, 2009 (post- HOF induction) interview with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

So either: 1. Canseco is obviously referring to somebody other than Henderson, or 2. Canseco has been caught in a direct lie regarding steroids and can no longer be considered a credible source on the topic.

So everybody, which one is it? #1 or #2?

Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan

08-08-2009, 09:55 PM

I believe this is a new record for mentions of the word "testicles" in a thread here.

One that I hope is never broken.

I saw Eric Davis get hit in the testicles by a Dennis Martinez running fastball one day playing for the Reds. The game was stopped for like 5 minutes as he recovered. :ooo:

ol' aches and pains

08-08-2009, 10:06 PM

Fair or unfair, cow testicles or no cow testicles, with 350+ wins, he was never going to be never be percieved on the same level as Tony Mullane. Articles show writers referencing 300 wins as being a big milestone as far back as the 1920's.

Cows don't have testicles, bulls do. Although after Pud ate them, those bulls were steers. :ooo:

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 10:29 PM

Cows don't have testicles, bulls do. Although after Pud ate them, those bulls were steers. :ooo:

Merriam-Webster -

Main Entry: 1cow
Pronunciation: \ˈkau̇\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English cou, from Old English cū; akin to Old High German kuo cow, Latin bos head of cattle, Greek bous, Sanskrit go
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the mature female of cattle (genus Bos) b : the mature female of various usually large animals (as an elephant, whale, or moose)
2 : a domestic bovine animal regardless of sex or age

CircleChange11

08-08-2009, 10:49 PM

Pud DID die at the age of 45 due to a catarrh of the stomach. Who knows? Perhaps the testicles contributed to his death.

Then again, he's a marginal Hall of Famer, so maybe without the testicles he'd become as remembered as, say, Tony Mullane.

I was thinking of the situation where the "testicles were still attached to the bull" ... I just couldn't think of a creative, non-offensive way of stating it.

I thought about "Lucky he didn't get gored or kicked", but I didn't want to get to gross about it.

The 'consumption' of testicles, glandulars, and the like is not as uncommon as one might think (among those athletes looking to raise hormone levels).

Now, we have steroids, which is much more effective compound.

Edit: LMAO at STLCards2 pulling out the dictionary for "cow". Now, I've seen it all. *big grin*

CircleChange11

08-08-2009, 10:52 PM

So everybody, which one is it? #1 or #2?

He's not referring to Rickey.

White Knight

08-08-2009, 11:38 PM

So everybody, which one is it? #1 or #2?

#3. He used from someone else, and didn't tell Jose. Very possible.

STLCards2

08-08-2009, 11:46 PM

#3. He used from someone else, and didn't tell Jose. Very possible.

I have never stated that Rickey never used. I only stated that Canseco was not talking about Rickey in his "HOFer on roids" interview- as he has stated very clearly than he has/had no knowlege of Rickey ever using.

Therfore, those who keep insisting that Rickey is the one Canseco is talking about have an interesting dilema: believe Canseco at his word when he said that he knows nothing about Rickey and steroids, or admitt that Canseco has been caught in lies about steroids (lying about his knowlege of Ricky within the same week) which makes him an unreliable source on the issue. This would quickly end the "well, it must be true if Canseco said it - he has yet to be wrong about steroids" logic.

As far as Rickey on 'roids? I have no idea, but that isn't relevent here.

CircleChange11

08-09-2009, 12:00 AM

I have never stated that Rickey never used. I only stated that Canseco was not talking about Rickey in his "HOFer on roids" interview- as he has stated very clearly than he has/had no knowlege of Rickey ever using.

Therfore, those who keep insisting that Rickey is the one Canseco is talking about have an interesting dilema: believe Canseco at his word when he said that he knows nothing about Rickey and steroids, or admitt that Canseco has been caught in lies about steroids (lying about his knowlege of Ricky within the same week) which makes him an unreliable source on the issue. This would quickly end the "well, it must be true if Canseco said it - he has yet to be wrong about steroids" logic.

As far as Rickey on 'roids? I have no idea, but that isn't relevent here.

My personal feeling based upon Canseco's books and interviews is that he would absolutely LOVE it if some credible evidence turned up that Cal Ripken used steroids.

Because of that, I keep feeling that Canseco continually hints at it or tries to plant the seed, if for no other reason that to get people discussing/considering it, because if Cal used steroids, then steroids can't be bad. But for Canseco to come right out and say "I bet Ripken used steroids" would be the last anyone ever heard of Canseco, and he likely knows that.

Los Bravos

08-09-2009, 03:35 AM

My personal feeling based upon Canseco's books and interviews is that he would absolutely LOVE it if some credible evidence turned up that Cal Ripken used steroids.

Because of that, I keep feeling that Canseco continually hints at it or tries to plant the seed, if for no other reason that to get people discussing/considering it, because if Cal used steroids, then steroids can't be bad. But for Canseco to come right out and say "I bet Ripken used steroids" would be the last anyone ever heard of Canseco, and he likely knows that.Agreed. Cal is, in nearly every possible way, the Anti-Canseco.

That and the fact that Jose is, as Cards put it so perfectly the other day, a real weasel.