Willie Hernandez

[Cowtipper]

Willie Hernandez played 13 years in the big leagues, going 70-63 with a 3.38 ERA, 147 saves and 419 games finished (ranking 49th all-time in that category) in 744 games. He was an All-Star each year from 1984 to 1986, winning the AL Cy Young Award, MVP Award and TSN Pitcher of the Year award in 1984. That season, he led the league in appearances and games finished, posting an ERA of 1.92 to go with 32 saves.

Hernandez was a great pitcher in the postseason, appearing in ten games and posting an ERA of 1.32. He also had three saves and five games finished. He wasn't all that bad with the bat either, for a pitcher - he hit .206 in 63 career at-bats.

Statistically, none of the players he is similar to are in the Hall of Fame. He is similar to (according to Baseball Reference): Jim Brewer, Dave LaRoche, Darold Knowles, Roger McDowell, Gary LaVelle, Paul Lindblad, Craig Lefferts, Tom Burgmeier, Terry Forster and Dan Plesac.

The Baseball Page ranks Hernandez as the 38th best reliever of all time, ahead of Jeff Russell, Firpo Marberry and Lindy McDaniel, but behind Steve Bedrosian, Armando Benitez and Rod Beck. In 1995, his only year of Hall of Fame eligibility, he received two votes.

What do you think about Willie Hernandez? Should he be in the Hall of Fame?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Thank to the AL not knowing what to do with his scroogie for a couple of seasons, he became an All-star. Once the novelty wore off, so did his days of being a top-flight closer. He blamed Free Press writer Mitch Albom for turning the fans against him and dumped a water cooler on him.

No HOF. But not because of what he did to Albom.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

If 70% of the people here think Sutter shouldn't be in the HOF, what makes you think a man with an ERA roughly 1/2 higher with roughly half as many saves should be? There have been a 100 Hernandez-type relievers in baseball.

His CY Young season was one of the better ever for relievers granted, but his effectiveness dropped off precipitously soon thereafter.

[nerfan]

All the relievers who won the MVP
Rollie Fingers, Hernandez, and Eckersley
Maybe Willie's season was one of the best
But if he's at the Hall of Fame, it'll be as a guest

Willie, Willie, Five Season Willie
You were hot for a while but then it got chilly
Thats cause you're success depended on your scrooge
When the hitters realized their homers became huge

Oh dang forgot about Jim Konstanty
The Whiz Kids relied on his pitching constantly
At least there's one thing that we can all agree
These men are all better than Jason Marquis

[Cowtipper]

All the relievers who won the MVP
Rollie Fingers, Hernandez, and Eckersley
Maybe Willie's season was one of the best
But if he's at the Hall of Fame, it'll be as a guest

Willie, Willie, Five Season Willie
You were hot for a while but then it got chilly
Thats cause you're success depended on your scrooge
When the hitters realized their homers became huge

Oh dang forgot about Jim Konstanty
The Whiz Kids relied on his pitching constantly
At least there's one thing that we can all agree
These men are all better than Jason Marquis

That brought a tear to my eye.

[nerfan]

That brought a tear to my eye.

I was going to write one about Benitez but I realized I'd have a mental breakdown recalling all of Benitez's terrible moments.

[JDD]

Ugh... I was wondering where the dart was going to land this week.

Is Terry Puhl next?

[Cowtipper]

Would you like it to be Terry Puhl?

[Paul Wendt]

Art Howe whose name is to short to post alone

[Brad Harris]

I was just stopping in to say something witty. Happy I was beat to the punch.

[Freakshow]

Ugh... I was wondering where the dart was going to land this week.

Is Terry Puhl next?Cecil Fielder, due to the unusual pronouncing of his first name (not "SEE-sul" but "SESS-ul"), was often called "Cess" for short. Back in my APBA days, we'd often come up with our own nicknames for players. Terry Puhl acquired the nickname "Cess".

[JDD]

Ed Ott

is a few characters short too.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Cecil Fielder, due to the unusual pronouncing of his first name (not "SEE-sul" but "SESS-ul"), was often called "Cess" for short. Back in my APBA days, we'd often come up with our own nicknames for players. Terry Puhl acquired the nickname "Cess".

Did you nickname Terry that because he was a Cess-pool of a hitter :laugh

[KCGHOST]

Willie had a nice career, but that's it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Gosh, I wonder what everyone thinks of Ron Santo or Bert Blyleven. We sure don't talk about them enough.

[jjpm74]

Gosh, I wonder what everyone thinks of Ron Santo or Bert Blyleven. We sure don't talk about them enough.

There are a lot of relievers who had better careers than Willie Hernandez who are not in the HOF:

Todd Jones
Roberto Hernandez
Todd Worrell
Ugueth Urbina
Gregg Olson
Dave Smith
Tug McGraw
Lindy McDaniel
Kent Tekulve
Jeff Reardon
Randy Myers
Rick Aguilera
Dave Righetti
Lee Smith
John Franco
Doug Jones
Sparky Lyle
Gene Garber
Jose Mesa
Roy Face
Dan Quisenberry
Tom Henke
Mike Marshall
Jeff Montgomery
John Wetteland
Rod Beck
Don McMahon
Jesse Orosco
Bob Wickman

The only one of them who gets serious HOF support around here is Dan Quisenberry. That's probably why the comments are what they are this time around.

[Captain Cold Nose]

There are a lot of relievers who had better careers than Willie Hernandez who are not in the HOF:

Todd Jones
Roberto Hernandez
Todd Worrell
Ugueth Urbina
Gregg Olson
Dave Smith
Tug McGraw
Lindy McDaniel
Kent Tekulve
Jeff Reardon
Randy Myers
Rick Aguilera
Dave Righetti
Lee Smith
John Franco
Doug Jones
Sparky Lyle
Gene Garber
Jose Mesa
Roy Face
Dan Quisenberry
Tom Henke
Mike Marshall
Jeff Montgomery
John Wetteland
Rod Beck
Don McMahon
Jesse Orosco
Bob Wickman

The only one of them who gets serious HOF support around here is Dan Quisenberry. That's probably why the comments are what they are this time around.


I think Face and McDaniel have been done.

You think Bob Wickman has a better HOF case than Hernandez? I'm not saying he wasn't a better reliever, per se. But do you think he has a better HOF case? I don't. I don't think McMahon or Urbina do. His 1984 CYA season makes him a more viable candidate than a few on the list.

Really, it has been mentioned before. If a thread is not liked, just ignore it.

Again, a guy who's barely worth a vote is better, to me, than the same six or so players dominating this thread. Hernandez was an all-star. He did win a major award, which puts him on the radar, for what it's worth. He had his time at the top. There are plenty of better closers and relievers, and I'm sure Cowtipper will get to them. Is there so much a hurry about someone in particular? Whatever his method is on choosing players Hernandez somehow came up this time.

[nerfan]

Cowtipper's choosing method involves clicking "random player" on Baseball Reference until he gets to a semi-good player. That's what I would guess.

5 years from now: Todd Walker. Bet 50 grand on that one.

[jjpm74]

Really, it has been mentioned before. If a thread is not liked, just ignore it.

Again, a guy who's barely worth a vote is better, to me, than the same six or so players dominating this thread. Hernandez was an all-star. He did win a major award, which puts him on the radar, for what it's worth. He had his time at the top. There are plenty of better closers and relievers, and I'm sure Cowtipper will get to them. Is there so much a hurry about someone in particular? Whatever his method is on choosing players Hernandez somehow came up this time.

I agree with this and personally would rather see very good players (Like W. Hernandez) than Ron Santo brought up for the 100th time.

[jjpm74]

You think Bob Wickman has a better HOF case than Hernandez? I'm not saying he wasn't a better reliever, per se. But do you think he has a better HOF case? I don't. I don't think McMahon or Urbina do. His 1984 CYA season makes him a more viable candidate than a few on the list.


It's hard to say on Wickman. W. Hernandez's peak (1984-1988) was great, but Wickman was effective for a much longer period than W. Hernandez, and enjoyed 2 stretches where he was among the best relievers in the league (1998-2001, 2005-2007). Urbina never had a peak per se, but pitched effectively for a longer period of time than both. Don McMahon came from a time when relievers didn't come in typically to save games. He did manage to end his career with over 500 GFs and 150 SVs, however. He's probably in the middle of the pack of relievers from his era.

It's hard to pinpoint which relievers belong in a HOF discussion and which don't as there aren't any advanced metrics that are effective in looking at the value of a reliever. It gets even more tricky when trying to compare them to starters.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never thought Hernandez deserved either the MVP or the CYA in 1984. If we're going to have a HOF discussion about Hernandez (who, IMO, is a total non-starter for Cooperstown), it ought to be how his winning hurt the chances of others.

In the 1984 AL CYA voting, the top STARTING pitcher was Bert Blyleven. I think Blyleven's 1984 season was far more valuable then Hernandez'. If Blyleven had won the 1984 AL CYA, he would probably be in the HOF. And the same could POSSIBLY be said of Dan Quisenberry, who finished second to Hernandez. Quiz' 1984 season wasn't really a CYA season, IMO, but Quiz was the kind of guy that (unlike Hernandez) really belongs in the HOF discussion.

The AL MVP vote for Hernandez was even less defensible. It's not like the 2nd place candidate (Hrbek) would have made the HOF if only Hernandez didn't win, but what if the voters who picked Hernandes picked the REAL Tiger MVP, Alan Trammell? Trammell, IMO, was shafted TWICE for the MVP, in 1984, where he was a legitimate pick, and in 1987, where he should have been the OBVIOUS pick.

The 1984 Tigers are, IMO, the greatest team to ever fail to produce even ONE HOFer. Hernandez hogging the award credit for that team, IMO, contributed to that situation, as well as depriving more deserving candidates (Quiz and Bert) of needed chrome and leather for their HOF candidacies.

[PVNICK]

I never thought of it that way, but Trammell with 2 MVPs or even one is probably in the HOF already no questions asked. Which says something for the arbitrary nature of things. And I know Dale Murphy says hello, but Trammell lasted longer and was a SS. (of course he had 69 RBI, finished 9th and was behind Gibson in 84 so he never had a shot anyway. But wishful thinking and I can't say I didn't think Tram was the MVP candidate for Det that year either).

[Fuzzy Bear]

I never thought of it that way, but Trammell with 2 MVPs or even one is probably in the HOF already no questions asked. Which says something for the arbitrary nature of things. And I know Dale Murphy says hello, but Trammell lasted longer and was a SS. (of course he had 69 RBI, finished 9th and was behind Gibson in 84 so he never had a shot anyway. But wishful thinking and I can't say I didn't think Tram was the MVP candidate for Det that year either).

What if Quiz had won the 1984 AL CYA instead of Hernandez? I grant you that Hernandez and Quisenberry are such comparable players, position-wise, that it would have hard to defend Quiz over Willie, but would that have boosted Quiz's chances? What if Bert Blyleven won, and not Hernandez; would THAT have made the difference?

[PVNICK]

Quiz, no though he finished 3rd in the MVP. Not that you've made me think about it, somehow being a sidearmer/underhanded thrower probably downgrades him a bit vis-a-vis if he had the same results with an overhand motion (same with Tekulve). Somehow I get the idea they were downgraded (even Bradford seems that way now). Its stupid but that's my take.

Blyleven with a Cy Young probably like Trammel gets pushed over the tipping point and is in, but Boddicker did win 20 abnsd led the league in ERA so he may have leaped frogged him.

As for Hernandez was he perfect in save opportunities, which was how he won? That's how I seem to remember it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Quiz, no though he finished 3rd in the MVP. Not that you've made me think about it, somehow being a sidearmer/underhanded thrower probably downgrades him a bit vis-a-vis if he had the same results with an overhand motion (same with Tekulve). Somehow I get the idea they were downgraded (even Bradford seems that way now). Its stupid but that's my take.

Blyleven with a Cy Young probably like Trammel gets pushed over the tipping point and is in, but Boddicker did win 20 abnsd led the league in ERA so he may have leaped frogged him.

As for Hernandez was he perfect in save opportunities, which was how he won? That's how I seem to remember it.

32 of 33. Plus his W-L record was 9-3. For once the writers listened to Sparky and all his gushing.

[538280]

The AL MVP vote for Hernandez was even less defensible. It's not like the 2nd place candidate (Hrbek) would have made the HOF if only Hernandez didn't win, but what if the voters who picked Hernandes picked the REAL Tiger MVP, Alan Trammell? Trammell, IMO, was shafted TWICE for the MVP, in 1984, where he was a legitimate pick, and in 1987, where he should have been the OBVIOUS pick.


I've never heard Trammell mentioned as possible 1984 MVP, I guess he wouldn't have been a bad choice since he did have a great year and was playing for far and away the best AL team. However I've always thought Cal Ripken should have won MVP that year, he pretty clearly had an even better offensive season than Trammell and at that point in his career was a borderline great defensive SS. I do agree though it would have been best if Trammell won because with an MVP I believe he would be in the HOF, which he deserves.

I really hope Barry Larkin makes the HOF too and I think his MVP (probably undeserved, though he was close) will be a big help for him. I think Larkin will be a good test case for how Trammell would have done if he did win an MVP.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I've never heard Trammell mentioned as possible 1984 MVP, I guess he wouldn't have been a bad choice since he did have a great year and was playing for far and away the best AL team. However I've always thought Cal Ripken should have won MVP that year, he pretty clearly had an even better offensive season than Trammell and at that point in his career was a borderline great defensive SS. I do agree though it would have been best if Trammell won because with an MVP I believe he would be in the HOF, which he deserves.

I really hope Barry Larkin makes the HOF too and I think his MVP (probably undeserved, though he was close) will be a big help for him. I think Larkin will be a good test case for how Trammell would have done if he did win an MVP.

There was talk in 1984. In Detroit, a lot of us were surprised Gibson finished ahead of him.

[Freakshow]

There was talk in 1984. In Detroit, a lot of us were surprised Gibson finished ahead of him.Trammell's MVP shot in 1984, like his HOF chances, was derailed by injury. He only started 112 games at shortstop that year (remember Doug Baker?). From early July to mid-August he was mostly DHing when not on the DL.

[Freakshow]

Willie should not have won the MVP, or even been in the running. I also don't think he should have won the Cy Young. Still, he was the AL's top closer in 1984.
Cnt Player OPS+ ERA+ WHIP SV GF IP Year Age
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+--+--+-----+----+---+
1 Willie Hernandez 40 204 0.941 32 68 140.1 1984 29
2 Ernie Camacho 65 169 1.200 23 49 100 1984 29
3 Dave Righetti 65 163 1.204 31 53 96.1 1984 25
4 Dan Quisenberry 67 153 1.028 44 67 129.1 1984 31
5 Tom Waddell 71 135 1.082 6 26 97 1984 25
6 Ron Reed 77 135 1.110 12 38 73 1984 41
7 Bill Caudill 78 137 1.121 36 62 96.1 1984 27
8 Dave Schmidt 80 162 1.265 12 37 70.1 1984 27
9 Aurelio Lopez 81 133 1.169 14 41 137.2 1984 35
10 Bob Stanley 85 118 1.275 22 47 106.2 1984 29

[PVNICK]

You get the feeling b/c of how Detroit dominated many may have felt it had to go to the guy who had the best season on the Tigers which apparently was the new guy in the pen with the sub 2 ERA and 32/33 saves. Go figure. Though there were no monster offensive seasons to compete with. Tony Armas led the league in the pet MVP categories HR and RBI but hit .268 and #2 was Kingman.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You get the feeling b/c of how Detroit dominated many may have felt it had to go to the guy who had the best season on the Tigers which apparently was the new guy in the pen with the sub 2 ERA and 32/33 saves. Go figure. Though there were no monster offensive seasons to compete with. Tony Armas led the league in the pet MVP categories HR and RBI but hit .268 and #2 was Kingman.

That's why Hrbek finished second. He had decent power numbers and a good batting average.

[dgarza]

Though there were no monster offensive seasons to compete with.
Is this the reason 2 closers (Quiz being the other) hogged 75% of the 1st place votes?

[PVNICK]

Is this the reason 2 closers (Quiz being the other) hogged 75% of the 1st place votes?

beats me, I was just making educated guesses. Though for a bit relievers were up there in awards and respect Lyle, Sutter and Fingers with the Cy Young and even an MVP for Fingers (whether they were merited is another argument for another day)