Example - Need for a compact swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Color commentary in the 2009 World Cup Championship game speaks of the need to "shorten up".

Example demonstrating the need for a compact swing. (http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/softball/HittingClips/ExForNeedingACompactSwing.wmv)

[Ursa Major]

I agree that the hitter's leg kick is too high, but not necessarily that the antidote is to "shorten up". For many youth hitters, the problem is more that they underload and end up just punching at the ball under the illusion that this type of swing gets them to the ball faster. In most cases, I'd rather see a kid aggressively get his or her hips into a swing so long as the hands are kept back and the wrists cocked, even with two strikes or with a fast pitcher. I don't find that "shortened swings" (which usually means that the bathead starts almost pointed back at the catcher) result in more contact -- at least in most cases.

In the instance of the hitter in the video, I don't think that shortening up would have helped her catch up to that high fastball. She's just got to learn to lay off it.

[Mark H]

Nice piece of writing. Concise, understandable, accurate and complete regarding the point.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I don't find that "shortened swings" (which usually means that the bathead starts almost pointed back at the catcher) result in more contact -- at least in most cases.


IMO a compact swing has nothing to do with someone silly enough to start with the bat pointed back at the catcher.

In my opinion a compact swing should be an efficient swing.

The other day someone (I believe it was MarkH) spoke on the topic of a swing that had too much distance covered between inside & outside pitches. Swing efficiency is key.

I question having a large amount of head drift during the "reading" of the pitch. IMO this batter could have less and that would help them out in having a more compact swing.

I also question having so heavy of an emphasis on the follow through ... as peak barrel velocity should be obtained at contact, and not deep into the follow through.

We are likely defining a compact swing differently, as IMO swing efficiency and a having a compact swing should go hand-in-hand.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Nice piece of writing. Concise, understandable, accurate and complete regarding the point.

IMO he didn't come close to understanding the importance of having a compact swing at the competitive levels.

[wogdoggy]

IMO he didn't come close to understanding the importance of having a compact swing at the competitive levels.

a compact swing just like gary sheffield...whats the definition of a 'compact' swing?

[soceric]

Color commentary in the 2009 World Cup Championship game speaks of the need to "shorten up".

Example demonstrating the need for a compact swing. (http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/softball/HittingClips/ExForNeedingACompactSwing.wmv)

So much "intent" she swung right through it. Being short in back with a relatively direct hand path can be counter-intuitive because it feels less powerful at first for a hitter who is accustomed to always getting their arms extended early.

[wogdoggy]

So much "intent" she swung right through it. Being short in back with a relatively direct hand path can be counter-intuitive because it feels less powerful at first for a hitter who is accustomed to always getting their arms extended early.

the height of her leg kick means zero..its a timming mechanism..sometimes announcers should just stfu

[virg]

the height of her leg kick means zero..its a timming mechanism..sometimes announcers should just stfu

Her leg action is too late; forces her to try to make up for it in the swing.

[wogdoggy]

the height of her leg kick means zero..its a timming mechanism..sometimes announcers should just stfu

Her leg action is too late; forces her to try to make up for it in the swing.

late is late....timming off

[soceric]

the height of her leg kick means zero..its a timming mechanism..sometimes announcers should just stfu

Timing mechanism or momentum generator for her? Maybe both? She tried to kill that ball one way or another, and that isn't going to work out unless she can easily handle the pitcher.

[virg]

[QUOTE=virg;1573094]
late is late....timming off

Yeah yeahhh! that's what I said. Tell the announcer not me; "hitting is timing" A to Z even in Chi

[FiveFrameSwing]

the height of her leg kick means zero..its a timming mechanism..sometimes announcers should just stfu


Bryce Harper - High Leg Kick Discussed (http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2009/07/14/bryce-harper-scouting-report)


Starting with his high leg kick. The high leg kick is a trick not everyone can pull off successfully, but not everyone is Bryce Harper. His leg kick works as a timing mechanism, and starts a very aggressive weight transfer. If you're going to hit the ball 570-feet - as Harper reportedly did as a freshman - you've got to get your whole body into it. An exaggerated leg kick can cause timing problems against good off-speed stuff, but Harper is able to maintain great balance at the plate and his mind-blowing bat speed give him extra time to track the ball from the pitcher's hand.

A problem with some high leg kick hitters, Harper does not over-stride.

[wogdoggy]

so are we going to be lectured on a quiet movement, minimal load, no running start 5 frame batting technique?..sounds like it :laugh:nod:

i like the higher leg kick because it gives you more time to ride the back hip until better pitch recognition..i'd would not want to be weighted on my front foot...sorry u slipped the bryce harper post in a second before i responded..

[Mark H]

@#$% Woggy, you are on a roll. Nice job so far. I'll just shut up and read.

[Mark H]

a compact swing just like gary sheffield...whats the definition of a 'compact' swing?

Except I do look forward to the answer to this question. If we substitute quick for compact I might think I understood the point. I think "compact swing" is one of those baseball ink blot phrases. It means whatever the speaker or hearer thinks it means. I might completely agree with the point if I knew for sure what it was.

[wogdoggy]

is this leg kick compact?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Except I do look forward to the answer to this question. If we substitute quick for compact I might think I understood the point. I think "compact swing" is one of those baseball ink blot phrases. It means whatever the speaker or hearer thinks it means. I might completely agree with the point if I knew for sure what it was.

When I think of a "compact swing" I think in terms of how far the hands travel from launch to contact (how direct the path is) and how quick.

I have no idea what wogdoggy means when he speaks of a compact leg kick.

[CircleChange11]

I agree that the hitter's leg kick is too high, but not necessarily that the antidote is to "shorten up". For many youth hitters, the problem is more that they underload and end up just punching at the ball under the illusion that this type of swing gets them to the ball faster. In most cases, I'd rather see a kid aggressively get his or her hips into a swing so long as the hands are kept back and the wrists cocked, even with two strikes or with a fast pitcher. I don't find that "shortened swings" (which usually means that the bathead starts almost pointed back at the catcher) result in more contact -- at least in most cases.

In the instance of the hitter in the video, I don't think that shortening up would have helped her catch up to that high fastball. She's just got to learn to lay off it.


THis is my big hang up with the LLWS. So many players taking 'half swings' just to catch up to the pitch, and letting the metal bat combined with a big body do the rest. So many of the swings you see in this type of setting are what I refer to as "survival swings" where there's no load, little to no follow through, and a study in what a 5'10 little leaguer can do with baseball bat technology. Use wood bats, scoot the mound back a bit, and learn to play ball versus whatever it takes to get temporary results.

[CircleChange11]

Bryce Harper - High Leg Kick Discussed (http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2009/07/14/bryce-harper-scouting-report)


Starting with his high leg kick. The high leg kick is a trick not everyone can pull off successfully, but not everyone is Bryce Harper. His leg kick works as a timing mechanism, and starts a very aggressive weight transfer. If you're going to hit the ball 570-feet - as Harper reportedly did as a freshman - you've got to get your whole body into it. An exaggerated leg kick can cause timing problems against good off-speed stuff, but Harper is able to maintain great balance at the plate and his mind-blowing bat speed give him extra time to track the ball from the pitcher's hand.

A problem with some high leg kick hitters, Harper does not over-stride.

Interesting that you mention BH, b/c the last footage I saw of him, he no longer uss a high leg kick and "rolls" his front foot in a bit (i.e., Jim Edmonds) to initiate his timing and swing. Generally, leg kicks tend to decrease as the frequency of offspeed pitches increase for obvious reasons.

Harper's mind-blowing bat speed could overcome a lot of mistakes (See Gary Sheffield). The thing about Harper, is without the leg kick (his current swing), his swing/timing has virtually no mistakes which is why he is who he is.

His bat speed is just wonderful to watch.

Edit: I also want to take this opportunity to warn current college baseball players to NEVER, NEVER, EVER take cuts in the cage off of a good college softball pitcher in front of your friends. It will NOT end nicely for you. Just saying.

[Mark H]

When I think of a "compact swing" I think in terms of how far the hands travel from launch to contact (how direct the path is)

If I hadn't read your stuff before I'd be thinking about this when I read that. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=17&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 But I'm sure you don't mean that. Point is, your sentence is perfectly clear, reasonable and impossible to misunderstand...to you. For the rest of the world it's an ink blot test. Could mean absolutely anything depending on the preconceptions the reader brings with him.


and how quick. Quick hands? Or quick barrel? Or quick from decision to contact or what?


I have no idea what wogdoggy means when he speaks of a compact leg kick. I think he was pulling your leg. Compactly of course.

[CircleChange11]

For those interested, here is what BH is currently doing with his front leg. A still from the video of the hr debry comp.

[calgofo]

[QUOTE=virg;1573094]

late is late....timming off

Exactly. I'm no hitting guru but in this instance the batter could have had a high kick, low kick, long stride, no stride, linear, rotational or stuck her leg up her a$$ it wouldn't have mattered. She swung under a pitch that was high and out of the zone. Not a high percentage opportunity regardless.

When it comes to Smitty's commentary, I like her breakdown on field strategy, fielding technique, baserunning etc. but when it comes to batting (or pitching technique for that matter) she is about as useful as a ******* calf at a round up. And of course we always have to go through the requisite "when I played SB in japan" and "when I won my two god medals" and "you know I was/am/is/will be" whatever, gives me a pain a pill can't locate. I've never seen a more narcissitic personality disorder definition than ole' Smitty.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
I don't find that "shortened swings" (which usually means that the bathead starts almost pointed back at the catcher) result in more contact -- at least in most cases.

FiveFrameSwing responded: IMO a compact swing has nothing to do with someone silly enough to start with the bat pointed back at the catcher.FFS, I agree with you. I meant that this is often what coaches (and presumably these commentators) mean when they implore batters to 'shorten up'. I mean, if you're asking a kid to change something about his or her swing in the middle of an at-bat, it's got to be something simple -- like your starting point -- right? You define a compact swing "in terms of how far the hands travel from launch to contact (how direct the path is) and how quick". How can you impart this advice to a kid in the middle of his at-bat; that's what he's trying to do on every pitch, isn't he? Are you suggesting that a player with two strikes should move his hands closer to the hitting zone but otherwise swing the same way?

So, we're left with the same question -- what do these commentators and many coaches mean when they suggest a hitter change something when facing a fast pitcher who's got two strikes on him or her?

In my opinion, the best advice you can give most hitters with two strikes (other than the obvious 'expand your zone' plea) is to tilt over a little more to make sure you can reach the low outside strike, because it's likely that's where the pitcher is going to try to get strike three. To prepare for a possible high inside pitch, be ready to keep your hands in and turn on that pitch if it comes, even if all you're likely to be able to do is to foul it off.

[wogdoggy]

Interesting that you mention BH, b/c the last footage I saw of him, he no longer uss a high leg kick and "rolls" his front foot in a bit (i.e., Jim Edmonds) to initiate his timing and swing. Generally, leg kicks tend to decrease as the frequency of offspeed pitches increase for obvious reasons.

Harper's mind-blowing bat speed could overcome a lot of mistakes (See Gary Sheffield). The thing about Harper, is without the leg kick (his current swing), his swing/timing has virtually no mistakes which is why he is who he is.

His bat speed is just wonderful to watch.

Edit: I also want to take this opportunity to warn current college baseball players to NEVER, NEVER, EVER take cuts in the cage off of a good college softball pitcher in front of your friends. It will NOT end nicely for you. Just saying.




Edit: I also want to take this opportunity to warn current college baseball players to NEVER, NEVER, EVER take cuts in the cage off of a good college softball pitcher in front of your friends. It will NOT end nicely for you. Just saying

remeber the jennie finch and barry bonds video...bonds used his top hand only and jennie couldnt get anything past him...

[wogdoggy]

If I hadn't read your stuff before I'd be thinking about this when I read that. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=17&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 But I'm sure you don't mean that. Point is, your sentence is perfectly clear, reasonable and impossible to misunderstand...to you. For the rest of the world it's an ink blot test. Could mean absolutely anything depending on the preconceptions the reader brings with him.

Quick hands? Or quick barrel? Or quick from decision to contact or what?

I think he was pulling your leg. Compactly of course.



lol...:laugh

[virg]

1. assemble a swing you're able to deliver to contact a fast pitch.
2. learn to moderate the timing.
3. Timing is everything at this stage.

So you swing "within yourself"; meaning don't over-swing, rather adjust timing. The guinea pig the commentator refers to over-swung rather than
adjust. The swing broke down including directional control, the breakdown shows as a loss of form assembled in step 1. If there ever was a step 1 for her.

Shorten up, means swing within yourself. Time it rather than overwork it to the breaking point. Stride timing is the control valve. If there ever was a step 1. As for Step 1 And high kickstrides, simpler is usually better.

[Ursa Major]

Edit: I also want to take this opportunity to warn current college baseball players to NEVER, NEVER, EVER take cuts in the cage off of a good college softball pitcher in front of your friends. It will NOT end nicely for you. Just saying

remeber the jennie finch and barry bonds video...bonds used his top hand only and jennie couldnt get anything past him...
As I recall, she made him look silly at first, and then he figured out what was going on and started to make decent contact. I think it goes to show what a phenomenal hitter he was that he could almost instantly figure out how to adjust. You and me? Fuhgeddaboutit!

[Kevin G]

IMO, a couple of things going on here.

First, as she comes around the corner (the rear corner, which I’ll explain later) and the bat starts to uncock slightly (this is the frame where you first see the ball), she is dead with her swing plane (low) no matter what. She fights to get her hands up but there’s no way to keep the barrel from going below her hands. The only reason I say anything about the obvious “she just missed it low” is that I think I’ve seen some posts about the need of softballers to start with their hands lower,…. I would guess to eliminate this very circumstance.

Second, is overall swing analysis and “shortening” the swing. I don’t know what you can do on a per at bat basis, but there is two things this gal might improve on …IMO.
The “rear corner” is set up by a little too much counter rotation of the shoulders, but more at fault is that from that start, her back upper arm begins to swing around in an arc. You don’t want this. This sets up the situation where any change to the shape of that arc will create flail forces on the bat that cause it to want to uncock, despite your wishes. That’s what I mean by rear corner. On this swing, that in itself didn’t hurt her because she was getting eaten up by the heater and needed the bat head in the zone asap. As a basic swing mechanic, however, she needs to get that back arm to “cut the corner” and work more directly toward first base from the get go. This is something the commentator may not be able to quantify… yet very well may have a good enough eye to see it none the less.
So yes, she could “shorten up” her mechanics with this change.
Another thing I notice is the tell tale signs of a “back to front” hitter. This is where the hitter wants to get the weight “up onto” her front leg and even pulls her body forward to accomplish this.
I’ve noticed three things that are visible to varying degrees with this action.
1. The front knee tends to increase it’s flexion as weight gets onto it. You see very little of this in most high level swings.
2. The lead shoulder and front side of torso get caught pulling forward so the shoulder stays in front of the head a frame or two longer.
3. The back leg wants to unweight too early. In nearly all high level swings, the back knee breaks with the back arm and as the back arm moves past the back hip, there is still a little rotation left in the back upper leg and hip. Her back foot is on the toes and already being dragged through the dirt forward and the back arm has yet to reach the body midline. This tells me she is pulling too much with her front side. This probably would also look to the trained eye in a live setting as not a short swing.

She ends up a strange mix of too much out and around with the upper body….
And too much push/pull/push back with the lower body.

Maybe all this is just a result of her realizing quite early that she is getting smoked.

[brian920]

In my opinion, the best advice you can give most hitters with two strikes (other than the obvious 'expand your zone' plea) is to tilt over a little more to make sure you can reach the low outside strike, because it's likely that's where the pitcher is going to try to get strike three. To prepare for a possible high inside pitch, be ready to keep your hands in and turn on that pitch if it comes, even if all you're likely to be able to do is to foul it off.

With two strikes all I do is inch a little closer to the plate, and choke up a little on the bat. I use my same swing.

I understand what you are saying about the tilt Ursa.
Wouldn't this be compensated though by the tilt in a rotational swing, or does this just add even more plate coverage to the natural tilt of the swing.
I wouldn't want to disrupt my posture, but I don't think this will anyway.