The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #18

[Freakshow]

Here is a link to the last election (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91538).

Assuming we list the full 15, this election completes the top 200 players list.
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This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2

If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87311) and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
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Each voter must do three things:

1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak
144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6
182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0
168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3
169 Joe Gordon 68.7 67.4 8.0 242 27.0
202 Jim Bunning 75.3 69.7 8.6 257 26.0
190 Stan Coveleski 69.5 71.5 8.7 245 28.4
192 Early Wynn 90.1 76.3 7.4 309 24.0
189 Joe Torre 85.4 80.4 8.4 315 29.2
193 Edgar Martinez 82.5 88.2 8.1 305 27.2
165 Sam Thompson 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6
174 Charley Radbourn 36.5 49.0 7.2 391 54.4
200 Willie Keeler 76.9 76.9 7.7 333 27.0
214 John Ward 57.1 65.7 5.9 409 37.6
205 Eppa Rixey 80.0 71.3 5.8 315 24.2
217 George Sisler 55.8 50.1 7.5 292 28.6
208 Ralph Kiner 47.6 47.9 7.2 242 31.0
207 Pete Hill
210 Bid McPhee 90.4 77.7 6.3 305 22.4
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #186-200 on the all-time list?

This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 200 in history?”

A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#201-209 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
176 Rube Foster
219 Elmer Flick 74.6 72.8 8.6 291 32.0
198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0
203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9
212 John Beckwith 66.1 6.5 316 27.4
211 Ezra Sutton 39.7 43.6 5.5
215 Wes Ferrell 72.6 68.0 9.6 233 29.6
209 Tony Perez 75.7 69.1 6.8 349 29.2
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2
191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4
197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4
199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4
206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4
213 Heinie Groh 78.6 68.8 8.2 272 29.6
216 Ken Boyer 60.8 62.0 6.8 279 26.8
218 Bill Foster 254 27.6
220 Lou Brock 61.4 54.4 5.6 348 28.6
221 Bill Freehan 66.7 57.6 6.5 268 27.6
222 Kevin Brown 75.5 82.1 8.7 241 23.0
223 Joe McGinnity 54.6 56.1 8.7 269 34.8
224 Pud Galvin 40.0 47.4 7.3 403 46.8
225 Harry Stovey 60.6 56.1 6.3 265 26.2
226 Dwight Evans 71.4 70.5 6.7 347 27.0
227 Bobby Doerr 74.7 72.7 7.2 281 26.0
228 Ichiro Suzuki 50.0 53.1 7.4 210 29.2
229 Dizzy Dean 49.2 54.8 8.5 181 29.0
230 Dickey Pearce
231 Red Faber 66.8 68.1 7.0 292 26.2
232 Keith Hernandez 69.9 69.1 7.7 311 29.2
233 Will Clark 69.3 74.4 8.0 331 33.6
234 Bobby Wallace 80.2 72.8 7.0 345 24.4
235 Charlie Bennett 58.7 70.2 8.2 157 16.0========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81709&page=99&post=#3939).
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Rube Foster compares favorably to the original Rube, Waddell. Pete Hill ranks somewhere between Crawford and Magee. Comparisons to Dick Allen have kept John Beckwith out of the HOF. Bunning and Coveleski appear to be similar in value to Bill Foster.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Ward, Radbourn and Galvin are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson, McPhee, Stovey and Bennett are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
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It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than ten days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker
171. Sherry Magee, 172. Zack Wheat, 173. Lou Boudreau, 174. Ted Lyons, 175. Ray Brown, 176. Ted Simmons, 177. Billy Herman, 178. Don Sutton, 179. Red Ruffing, 180. Max Carey
181. Enos Slaughter, 182. Don Drysdale, 183. Vladimir Guerrero, 184. Goose Gossage, 185. Jeff Kent

[Freakshow]

I think it's time to put him on the list.

The evidence of Palmeiro being a "cheater" consists of one drug test with positive results for steroids. From this, his only punishment was a ten-day suspension. He has stated on many occasions that he took them unknowingly. He has tested negative many times.

Palmeiro has much more in common with the (I believe) hundreds of other cheaters who have not been caught:
--we have no idea how long he took PEDs
--we have no idea how much it helped his performance
--his actual MLB record stands, unsanctioned, no asterisks

In my estimation, this episode leads to a slight demerit under the Hall's "sportsmanship/character" criteria. Without this episode his is a borderline top 100 career. The scapegoating that ensued shortened his career slightly, diminishing his already impressive career totals.

[jjpm74]

Before I cast my ballot, I view 15 of these players as HOFers, but just 7 of them I view as better than the next 30 on the original list. At this point, should any player I view as a HOF receive a yes vote? If not, roughly how many rounds away are we from that point?

[Freakshow]

Before I cast my ballot, I view 15 of these players as HOFers, but just 7 of them I view as better than the next 30 on the original list. At this point, should any player I view as a HOF receive a yes vote? If not, roughly how many rounds away are we from that point?We have many rounds until we reach that point. So far we've listed 143 HOFers, around 60%, leaving about 93 more. In v1.0 the HOF line came at #277, where the number of eligible non-HOFers on the list equaled the number of HOFers not on the list.

[dgarza]

1. Rafael Palmeiro
2. Sam Thompson
3. Willie Keeler
4. Sammy Sosa
5. George Sisler
6. Charley Radbourn
7. Edgar Martinez
8. Ralph Kiner
9. Early Wynn
10. Jim Bunning
11. Joe Torre
12. Stan Coveleski
13. Pete Hill - N
14. Joe Gordon - N
15. Bid McPhee - N
16. Eppa Rixey - N
17. John Ward - N
18. Joe Start - N


1. Harry Stovey
2. Pud Galvin
3. Joe McGinnity
4. Andre Dawson
5. Bobby Doerr
6. Lou Brock
7. Ken Boyer
8. Rollie Fingers

[Brad Harris]

1. Sisler
2. Start
3. Gordon
4. Martinez
5. Ward
6. Keeler
7. Radbourn
8. Hill
9. Wynn
10. Torre
11. Palmeiro
12. Rixey
13. Coveleski
14. Sosa
------------------------------- Y/N division
15. Bunning
16. Kiner
17. Thompson
18. McPhee

Run-off
1. Will Clark
2. Kevin Brown
3. Fred McGriff
4. Darrell Evans
5. Carlos Delgado
6. Joe McGinnity
7. Ken Boyer
8. Bill Freehan

[jjpm74]

Ballot:

1. Joe Start Y
2. Bid McPhee Y
3. Early Wynn Y
4. Eppa Rixey Y
5. George Sisler Y
6. Willie Keeler Y
7. Joe Gordon Y
8. John Ward N
9. Pete Hill N
10. Stan Coveleski N
11. Charley Radbourne N
12. Ralph Kiner N
13. Sam Thompson N
14. Jim Bunning N
15. Joe Torre N
16. Edgar Martinez N
17. Sammy Sosa N
18. Rafael Palmeiro N

Runoff:

1. Lou Brock
2. Dizzy Dean
3. Ichiro Suzuki
4. Kevin Brown
5. Pud Galvin
6. Will Clark
7. Heinie Groh
8. Bobby Doerr

[leecemark]

1) Ward
2) Torre
3) Radbourne
4) Kiner
5) Sisler
6) Rixey
7) Gordon
8) Coveleski
9) McPhee
10) Hill
11) Bunning
12) Wynn
13) Keeler
14) Start
n) Martinez
n) Thompson
n) Sosa
n) Palmerio

Runoff
1) Suzuki
2) Dean
3) Brock
4) Freehan
5) Galvin
6) Hernandez
7) Dawson
8) Boyer

[mwiggins]

1. Sisler
2. Gordon
3. Keeler
4. Ward
5. Thompson
6. Hill
7. McPhee
8. Coveleski
9. Bunning
10. Kiner
11. Rixey
12. Torre
13. Radbourn
14. Wynn - N
15. Start - N
16. Palmeiro - N
17. Martinez - N
18. Sosa - N

1. Dean
2. Dawson
3. Clark
4. Suzuki
5. Brock
6. Dwight Evans
7. Freehan
8. Darrell Evans

[jalbright]

1. Ward
2. Wynn
3. Gordon
4. Keeler
5. Sisler
6. Coveleski
7. Bunning
8. Rixey
9. Hill
10. Radbourn
11. McPhee
12. Kiner
13. Sosa
14. Start
15. Torre---all from here up are "y" votes
==================================
16. Palmiero--N
17. Martinez--N
18. Thompson--N


Runoff
1. Doerr
2. Foster
3. Stovey
4. Faber
5. Galvin
6. Groh
7. Boyer
8. Brock

[Sockeye]

Rankings

1. Rafael Palmeiro Y
2. Edgar Martinez Y
3. Early Wynn Y
4. Sammy Sosa Y
5. Willie Keeler Y
6. Jim Bunning Y
7. Eppa Rixey Y
8. Joe Torre Y
9. Stan Coveleski Y
10. Sam Thompson Y
11. Ralph Kiner Y
12. Charley Radbourn Y
13. George Sisler N
14. Joe Gordon N
15. Bid McPhee N
16. John Ward N
17. Joe Start N
18. Pete Hill N

Runoff

1. Will Clark
2. Fred McGriff
3. Dwight Evans
4. Keith Hernandez
5. Kevin Brown
6. Carlos Delgado
7. Pud Galvin
8. Red Faber

I edited my ballot to include Sisler. He goes in at #13.

[STLCards2]

1. McPhee
2. Bunning
3. Thompson
4. Keeler
5. Coveleski
6. Martinez
7. Rixey
8. Radbourn
9. Ward
10. Torre
11. Wynn
12. Palmeiro
13. Sosa
14. Gordon
15. Kiner
16. Sisler
17. Start

Things start getting pretty subjective at this point. I wouldn't throw a fit with any of these guys being near the 200-220 range. Yes for all - I won't be "noing" too many from here on out, unless some real interesting cases start popping up.

1. Groh
2. K. Brown
3. DW. Evans
4. DA. Evans
5. Doerr
6. Stovey
7. McGinnity
8. Faber

[gman5431]

1 Pete Hill Y
2 George Sisler Y
3 Joe Gordon Y
4 Jim Bunning Y
5 Ralph Kiner Y
6 Eppa Rixey Y
7 Willie Keeler Y
8 Joe Torre Y
9 Edgar Martinez Y
10 Big McPhee Y
11 Sam Thompson Y
12 Stan Coveleski Y
13 John Ward Y
14 Charles Radbourn Y
15 Early Wynn Y
16 Sammy Sosa N
17 Raffy Palmeiro N
18 Joe Start N

G Rizzle

[gman5431]

1 Lou Brock
2 Andre Dawson
3 Dizzy Dean
4 Ichiro Suzuki
5 Carlos Delgado
6 Fred McGriff
7 Joe McGinnity
8 Will Clark

G Man

[Freakshow]

1 Palmeiro
2 Torre
3 McPhee
4 Ward
5 Keeler
6 Bunning
7 Coveleski
8 Hill P
9 Start
10 Martinez E
11 Sosa
12 Gordon
13 Radbourn
14 Wynn
15 Rixey
N 16 Thompson S
N 17 Sisler
N 18 Kiner

Runoff
1 Suzuki
2 Foster W
3 Clark W
4 Groh
5 Galvin
6 Wallace
7 Hernandez K
8 Dawson

We'll close this out in another day or two. Hopefully, bambam or someone new will weigh in with a good ballot.

[jalbright]

You can forget bambam. His escapades (which included some matters beyond his posts) mean he won't be around for a good while.

[Freakshow]

I'll close this round as soon as Sockeye and STLCards2 fix their short ballots.

[Paul Wendt]

I'll close this round as soon as Sockeye and STLCards2 fix their short ballots.

I've participated in competition where the published results omit the last place. The booby prize winner is knowable from a list of all the competitors by process of elimination.

We could do that in baseball standings (wins only, for illustration).
59 Phillies
55 Marlins
53 Braves
50 Mets

[Sockeye]

I edited my ballot to include Sisler. He goes in at #13.

[Freakshow]

Rank Pts Ave 1st No's
186 Willie Keeler 294 5.6 0 0
187 George Sisler 279 7.1 2 2
188 John Ward 271 7.9 2 3
189 Joe Gordon 270 8.0 0 2
190 Jim Bunning 266 8.4 0 2
191 Stan Coveleski 260 9.0 0 1
192 Pete Hill 259 9.1 1 3
193 Bid McPhee 259 9.1 1 3
194 Eppa Rixey 258 9.2 0 1
195 Early Wynn 257 9.3 0 1
196 Joe Torre 256 9.4 0 1
197 Chas. Radbourn 253 9.7 0 1
198 Edgar Martinez 247 10.3 0 4
Carried over to next election
Sam Thompson 239 11.1 0 5
Rafael Palmeiro 238 11.2 3 5
Ralph Kiner 238 11.2 0 3
Joe Start 224 12.6 1 4
Sammy Sosa 222 12.8 0 4

Runoff Winners Pts Bal
233 Will Clark 74 6
220 Lou Brock 72 6
224 Pud Galvin 67 6
228 Ichiro Suzuki 67 5
206 Andre Dawson 57 5
Also-Ran
229 Dizzy Dean 56 4
222 Kevin Brown 51 4
213 Heinie Groh 46 4
227 Bobby Doerr 45 4
223 Joe McGinnity 41 4
225 Harry Stovey 38 3
191 Fred McGriff 37 3
226 Dwight Evans 36 3
216 Ken Boyer 35 4
199 Carlos Delgado 32 3
197 Darrell Evans 32 3
232 Keith Hernandez 31 3
221 Bill Freehan 29 3
231 Red Faber 28 3
218 Bill Foster 28 2
234 Bobby Wallace 10 1
181 Rollie Fingers 8 1
235 Charlie Bennett 0 0
230 Dickey Pearce 0 0
There were two big winners in this election. George Sisler tied the record for biggest gain, 30 places, from #217 to #187; 19th century star John Ward advanced 26 places, from #214 to #188. Four others advanced into the top 200 circle: Bunning, Hill, McPhee and Rixey. There were two big losers: Charley Radbourn fell 23 spots from #174 to #197; Joe Gordon was down 20, from #169 to #189.

Rafael Palmeiro and Sam Thompson continued their falls. Half the voters didn't see them as belonging yet. Due to this, there are still two spots to be filled in the top 200.

The Runoff winners that will appear on the next ballot are W. Clark, Brock, Galvin, Ichiro! and Dawson. (Points are now calculated on a 15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8 basis.)

See you in election #19.

[STLCards2]

I'll close this round as soon as Sockeye and STLCards2 fix their short ballots.

Sorry about that - just came over to fix it now.

[Freakshow]

Sorry about that - just came over to fix it now.That's fine, I didn't know if you would make it or not. In your absence I inserted the group average for Pete Hill on your ballot, a 9th place vote. I will modify the results if your actual ranking is different. Either way, he makes the list.